CaysE

Granted it's nothing like some of you maniacs with Baer or Wilwood 13" setups, cause I'm working with the stock 15" wheels, but it should definitely help out a ton.

From Tirerack:
EBC Green Stuff pads
EBC Sport Brake rotors

From Spohn:
Earl's Hyperfirm SS lines for disk/drum setups

I'm curious to see how well these rotors are. In the picture on tirerack.com, they're black, which should be interesting if anything. Caliper slides are gonna get lubed and all that good stuff as well.

Just want to say thanks to all the brake gurus that have posted here a thousand times or more (Ed, Steve, MrDude, etc etc etc), you guys make for some excellent reading! Before I started reading all these posts, I didn't know the difference between rotors and frisbees.

CaysE

Also, has anyone made their own hard lines? What size piping is needed? I have plenty of heating & A/C tools to mess with the stuff, just need to know what to buy.

CaysE

Anyone?

MrDude_1

im faaar from a guru. lol.
but the pads and lines sound good. i didnt even know EBC made brake rotors.....

yea ive bent my own before. just short stuff, like master cyl to prop valve and line lock hookups.. that stuff. i just used the same size as stock.. if i can, i use preflared line. flaring lines isnt hard with the right tools, but preflared is just easier... if its anythign long, like master cyl to rear of the car, then i would just get a factory line from a good car, or repair the broken section, depending on condition.

CaysE

To me you are!
Do you recall what size the tubing is that you used? I'm not really sure what flaring is, but i think it means widening the ends to connect everything?

robertg

iTrader: (2)

pretty sure our brake lines are 3/16".

however, i do believe that 84 and newer cars use the metric bubble flare lines. someone please correct me if i'm wrong

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

IMO, I wouldn't spend the time to bend your own lines. There are a handful of companies that offer new lines for a very reasonable price and the price you'll pay is worth the time you'd save bending your own, not counting the time you'll waste if you mess it up. Then it's back to the parts store for new lines.

www.finelinesinc.com

www.classictube.com

www.inlinetube.com

Ed

Jon92TA

Just something to think about if you're interested. Do the pads/rotors and the Earls lines seperatly, that way you can tell the difference each makes and isolate a problem should one arise.

CaysE

Nice links! Thanks again, Ed.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I just ordered a set of rear '91 Z28 axle lines from Fine Lines...$35 shipped to me. Classic gave me and a friend the runaround last time so I opted to use another supplier to see if there's a difference in service, I hope there is.


Ed

CHCKLS

FYI

I placed an order with Inlinetube about two months ago. I can say that I had no problems with them at all. Got my lines 3 days after I placed the order. Directions that came with them were clear and simple and the installation itself went very well (kind of like it was to easy so there must be something wrong). Well worth the money to not have to bend my own lines.

RB83L69

It's not easy to find tools or parts to make those metric bubble-flare lines. Older cars with the SAE lines were real easy, but not any more.

I'd suggest buying them as a kit from one of those places listed above, rather than attempting to fab them.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

I bought from Fine Lines for my PBR upgrade. The price was $35 shipped. I received in three or four days.

JamesC

CaysE

Looks like I'll go with Finelines. I almost ordered from Classic just cause their website is easier to browse. Just picked up new wheel bearings (SKF from Pep Boys), caliper grease, and some cheapo Gunk brake fluid to flush and fill with. The hard lines won't go in until after the bearings, SS lines, pads and rotors, so I'll put some better fluid in afterwards. Pads and rotors show up tomorrow.

Question about the bearings... I know I forgot to get new cotter pins, so I'll get them tomorrow, but am I missing anything else? The bearings come with a metal ring that they seat in... are these the races? Do I need seals of some kind?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

You'll need the inner seal. There's no outer seal, just the round cap thing.

Ed

CaysE

I could get new dust caps too I suppose. A couple of them are pretty beat up. Was I right about the races; is that what they are?

Here's a picture of the EBC rotors... pretty strange seeing them in black.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Yes, the metal rings are new races.

Ed

CaysE

Brake light came on yesterday! (Nothing installed yet). Fronts look OK, pulled off the drums in the back... the cylinder on the driver side is jammed or something. I tried pushing the shoes together, but they won't budge. I push one shoe in and it pushes the other one out.

I guess new drums are in order, too...

RB83L69

That's how they're supposed to act. Sounds like there's nothing wrong with the rear brakes, at least not anything wrong with what they did in your "test". As long as the cylinder guts move and there's no fluid leaking out, they're pretty much OK.

Did you check the rubber line at the center of the rear end to see if it had burst?

Once you ar esur ethe hydrulics are all in working order, you might want to try adjusting the rears up until the drums will just barely still go on.

CaysE

Both shoes should push out at the same time, not one goes in and the other goes out.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

They work like that when the drum is on and when the pedal is pushed, not when you push in on the wheel cylinder piston...get it? If there's no resistance on the other side of the cylinder, of course the other end will push out. No fluid is going back to the master since is hasn't moved so it has to go that way.

Not bashing, just a concept thing...

Ed

CaysE

The logic portion of my brain occassionally shuts off. I guess it's the passenger's side that's no good then, seeing as I can compress both shoes at once with my hands (not easily, but I can do it). I'm replacing the drums too then. Might as well do everything. Before long I'll be asking where to get a good master cylinder.

CaysE

I always take your posts in high regard as well, RB... but I don't see how making the front brakes do all the work is advantageous. If anything, the rears should be doing more work than they do in the stock setup, hence the need for a proportioning valve. If I'm missing something here, please let me know as always.

RB83L69

What I am suggesting is to manually adjust the rear brakes as far "up" as possible; i.e. set them so the shoes are adjusted to be as fully spread out as they can be and still be able to cram the drums on over them. That would of course give the maximum possible rear brake action, since the shoes would be essentially right up against the drums even when at rest. So I think you misunderstood the intent.

If they get far enough out of adjustment, the self-adjusters will never have enough braking force applied to them (in reverse) to do anything; sound like that may have happened here.

CaysE

Ah, yeah... I interpreted it as "drums will just barely engage." I'm getting OEM replacement everything except for the shoes tomorrow: drums, hardware kit, adj kit, wheel cylinders, bearings, seals, dust caps. Shoes I will try to get something half-decent. I'm hoping to change the whole rear out for a rebuilt 10-bolt with gears and disk brakes before I have to deal with the drums a second time.

With some luck, I'll have this in progress within a couple weeks.

acescarrsRS

Hey CaysE did you ever get those EBC rotors & pads on yet. I am curious as to what you think of them cause I might go the same route.

CaysE

No, not yet; they're sitting in the basement. I have to do my entire brake system, and finding time to do it on a daily driver is a little rough. I will update here when I get it done though.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I'll chime in..I've got EBC Greenstuffs front and rear on my Iroc. It stops like crazy but dusts like hell, and they're advertised to be low dust. If you don't mind the dust go for them. I'll go with something else next time.

Ed

BretD 88GTA

Hmmm. My EBC front 1LE pads are actually dusting less. I was using Performance Friction pads before with the stock rotors and they dusted like crazy.

I actually am pretty happy so far with the EBC Greenstuff pads. I may install an adjustable prop. valve so I can get some more rear braking. The 1LE fronts grab a bit too hard for my taste right now and it's a little unnerving in tight turns.

BretD 88GTA

CaysE,
I'm curious to know, are your front rotors actually coated black?

You'll notice in the picture that those are 2-piece rotors they show. Typically, most companies don't coat front rotors that have the integral hub like ours. They only coat the 2-piece design rotors, like our rears.

The reason I was given by AutoSpecialty is that it's due to the bearing races in the integral hubs. I guess they're afraid the coating will change the tolerances.

MrDude_1

actually, they dont care about the tolerances... its a cone so you just move the bearing in or out to snug it.

what the problem is (from what i was told) is that the coating is worn off from where the bearings ride and because it has no place else to go, it keeps getting run thru the bearings, chewing them up.

BretD 88GTA

What I have wondered, is why don't they coat the rotors first, THEN install the races? The races are only pressed in and are designed to be replaceable.

CaysE

The rotors are indeed black. It almost looks like (and kinda smells like) a thin but thorough coat of black spray paint. The hubs are integral and the outer bearing race looks like it's coated as well. I'm less than thrilled about that, but I have races with the new bearings that I can install if necessary. Like MrDude said, I'd rather not have little pieces of coating chewing up my new bearings.

When I get this job underway, I'll have a digital cam on hand. I can take some close-ups of the rotors.

[edit]From what a good friend of mine told me (he's worked on a lot of cars), the coating on the races won't do any harm to the bearings. I think I'll leave them in and I can report on their wear when I eventually have to repack them. [/edit]

CaysE

Damn... well three months later:

I installed the rotors and pads finally. No brake lines yet... I'm still organizing how I'm going to do the whole brake line system. I seem to be losing fluid if I slam on the brakes hard enough, but I can't figure out where it's leaking out. Anyway, enjoy the pictures.


The passenger side was the problem area. A few days ago, that side starting making some real unpleasant noises. On the left is the outer pad... on the right: horror.



Here's a closeup of the inner pad. The clips on either end of the retainer spring were literally millimeters away from being chewed to nothingness.



And you can see there's a good amount of material left on the outer pad, compared to the inner (ZERO). Anyone have any ideas on how this may have happened?



Here are the old rotors, inbound side up. Guess which one went where...



For the new inner pads, you have to swap the retainer springs off of the old ones. You also have to dig out the material in the hole for the spring. I was somewhat disappointed that EBC didn't do all of this for you already (clean out the hole, add clips), but it wasn't that big of a deal. When you dig out the hole far enough, there's a small lip that the spring rests in to prevent it from popping off of the pad. On the left, you can see the hole already cleared out. On the right is a finished pad, ready for install.



Driver's side, complete:



Passenger side complete:




The break-in period is a little hairy. As you wear off the black coating, the brakes do not grip very well at extremely slow speeds. A few times I thought I was fully stopped at a light when in fact I was still moving forward. Just be wary of something like that, as you don't want to inadvertently bump into someone in front of you. They are starting to grip very well as they wear in. I have yet to do a good stop with them and don't really plan to push them for a little while. We'll see how it goes over time.

Kennerz

A little late but, I have EBC green stuff on the front of my SS, and they are pretty good, relatively low dust. However IMHO Hawk HP pads stop much better. They dust more, but I had significantly stronger braking, and better modulation with the Hawks. If you don't mind brake dust , I say buy the Hawks. EBC's are relatively quiet, along with low dust.

Off the subject- but if you plan on building your motor, You should seriously consider a caliper/rotor upgrade. Your car will feel alot safer.

acescarrsRS

Looking good man! I forgot all about this thread too lol! Let us know when you fully break in the pads & do some panic stops how they perform

CaysE

I won't be doing any major engine work to this car. The 92 RS I just got is the future beast. I plan on keeping this car more or less in stock trim.

Anyone know why my inner pad wore so much quicker than the outer? I don't want it to keep happening with these pads. Also, is there a "proper" way of breaking in rotors before I can do some heavy braking without worrying about warping them?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Yes...your caliper sliders are stuck, not moving any as the pads wear down, therefore only putting pressure on only one side. I'd either remove the calipers and lube them up or just replace the calipers all together.

Ed

CaysE

The sliders are the bolts holding the caliper to the spindle?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Kinda...there's 2 small round spacer things that ride in rubber bushings in the ends of the calipers where those long bolts go thru. If these are stuck, the caliper won't move and the pads wear like the ones above.

Ed

acescarrsRS

On another note, here are different ways of bedding in your new pads & rotors from different companies. Hope this helps

Brake Pad & Rotor Bed-In Procedures

vsixtoy

Always disregard what any manufacturer might say about turning roors- and ALWAYS turn a "NEW" rotor before installing it.

1) When I say turn it, you are just taking off a few thousands to clean off the coating crap on the stopping surface. The rest of the rotor is still protected (this applies to zinc washing etc..) So you don't drive around on that "teflon coating" surface until it wears through and you finally get brakes.

2) When you take off a few thousnads, you are also slightly roughing the mating surface of the rotor to the pad for faster break-in. Just as when you hone a cylinder for piston ring mating.

3) you are further checking the manufacturers tolerances of a new boxed rotor that has sat possibly on a shelf for months (THEY DO WARP SITTING AROUND FLAT sometimes.- ever been told not to leave a crankshaft lying down? There's a reason why cranks are always stood up, they stay more true this way)

acescarrsRS

Cool. I never thought of doing that instead. Would you still have to do some time of bed-in procedure for the pads to gain maximum stopping power though?

vsixtoy

It does help quite a bit.

The main thing you want to do with any new rotor (thats a rotor that has never been used on a car before- as in new-new, not new-to-you) is heat cycle the metal. What this means is the normal process of heating and cooling the rotor many times slowly- you are basically heat treating it making the metal harder and normalized to handle higher heat levels without warping. Once it has been cycled, it retains its memory better and will handle the heat.

A new rotor heated too fast will cause the metal properties on the rotor contact surface to change and develop "hotspots" which will not disapate heat evenly.

Once a pad is bedded, it can more evenly distribute heat across the surface of the rotor during the first few hundred miles as you make probably about 30 "driving normal low even pressure stop use trips, then cars sits for awhile to fully cool down" trips like driving to work, then driving home be two separte cycles of the aprox 30 needed. Now 30 is a ficticious number based on what I assume the AVERAGE persons commute would be (my guess- 10 miles one way) without any harder stops that your grandmother would make- Just very normal conservative driving (My wife will tell you I'm far from the one to being trying to explain how some should drive conservatively).

Rotor break-in is very hard to describe in words to anyone because its all about interpetation of what you consider "driving conservatively and not making hard stops until the break-in period is concluded- Just drive like a granny for about 300 miles(with normal 10 mile trips, not all at once- again its about getting them warm, then letting them cool- repetitively) and you'll be perfect.

MOST OF ALL DURING THAT PROCESS- DO NOT ( no matter how much you want to) DO NOT TEST THEM HARD EVEN THE SLIGHTEST BIT. You do not want to spike them with sudden heat.

acescarrsRS

I feel a sticky coming up for general brake rotor & pad bed-in
Thanks for all the info vsixtoy!

CaysE

Nice writeup. I have been driving like an old bag for a good 100 miles so far. I did, however, have to make a quick deceleration from 65 to about 25 mph on the highway once... I think at around 70 miles or so. I never fully stopped, so I hope there are no hot spots from that. Any opinions?

vsixtoy

Most likely not. At those speeds, the rotor is already warmed a little. This is what the manufatures actually recommend doing is stops just as you describe (They should just decribe them as "slowdowns"). What they want you to do is increase the temp of the rotor and then drive around on it softly afterwards and let it cool back to warm gradually. They don't want you to just start the car then make a few "slowdowns like that and proceed imediately to park the car and let it cool by itself. While driving, the heat produced will disapate evenly through the "spinning" rotor where as it will hotspot a stopped rotor.

You mainly don't want to lock them up are even close to it because the metal is not hardened yet. Spinning at those speeds and coming down from 65-25 produces heat(More if the rotor is coated like yours is- its llike a teflon surface trying to stop, it takes much more pressure to stop them than if they were turned first like I stated above) but it is also clamping on a surface that is spinning fast and evenly, then was relieved to spin and cool- so it isn't a terrible thing like coming to a complete stop in a panic. But still try and avoid getting in a situation where you had to rely on brand new brakes to panic stop you- I know it is sometimes unavoidable and better to do that than bend your car.

You'll know in time if you stress the rotors, or even if they are made of cheaper grade metal (I have had this problem with Powerslots, broke them in fine and they still warp from inferior metal not being able to handle the heat I gave them) You will feel it in the steering wheel when braking when on a front application like yours pictured if they start to warp. It may take 3 months to show up, then again it may be fine. Time will tell. Personally, you should be fine without any problems, so don't stress about it.

CaysE

Cool, excellent info as always from you.

CaysE

It's been almost 3 months and 4000 miles now, and I'm not exactly thrilled with this setup. I'm not sure if it's the pads, rotors, or the combination of the two, but they are pretty noisy. At first I thought the bearings didn't have enough grease on them, so I repacked them with no change. It's like a constant low-decibel squeaking, not loud at all, but you can hear it cruising next to a median on the highway.

Braking is strong and smooth at high speed when everything is warm... say from 80mph to 40. But if you stay on the brakes too long the brakes are "rough," as if they are warped, but they don't feel the same as warped rotors. It's kinda like what it might sound like if you were braking with sandpaper or something. I talked to a friend of mine who had the same setup on a Ford Probe and described a similar situation.

For all I know, the rotors probably are warped, though. My next step is to replace the calipers and flexible lines, so I will have the rotors cut and mount new pads at that time. I will likely let this go as is for at least another 6 months though. We'll see what happens.