I was talking to a brake mechanic the other day and I mentioned that no matter how hard I press on the brake pedal, I can't lock up the wheels. He said that is normal for third gen cars. Is this so? I recently replaced the front rotors and pads all around and bled all the lines. could my master be going bad? How can I test it?

Thanks,

Ken

 

I guess I'm the only one, huh?

 

I had an 83 Z-28 and locked up the fronts a few times. Never got the rears to since they never worked! On my RS I locked up the rear and nearly did a 180. Who would put a stop sign in the middle of a long bender? Commies!I don't know whats up with yours, maby its your pads what brand were they?

------------------
91 RS Conv. 305 tbi no cat. 16" IROC rims, whiteface guages. More soon.

 

I never tried to lock my brakes up... I always thought that was a good thing! More braking control!


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Nobody tries to lock em', but i've heard under 30mph you may as well stomp on em' since modulateing(sp?) doesn't really deliver much of an improvement on distances.Especially if you dont know what your doing.

 

It's the same thing for me. I can lock the front weels but my rear weels never lock. I've see that on a chassi dyno when I have to stop the weels turning. The dyno operator tell me that all thirdgen where like that except for the 1LE.

Thirdgen stock brakes sucks!!!

------------------
89 L98 GTA
- Custom made air induction
- Headman Hedders (t.e.m.s.)
- Dynomax Race Magnum muffler
- TH700-R4 with vette servo and Superior shift kit
- All the rest is stock
-------------------------
Soon: Spohn SFC

 

Hey SeeYa,

The pads are Bendix semi-metallic in front and organic in the rear. Are there better choices available? or should I just call Baer?

Hi TomP,

You are right about control and not WANTING to lock them up, my concern is that under emergency braking that not being able to lock them up would indicate my stopping distances are longer than they could be. Especially since I have a pretty heavy foot, stopping distance can be critical! I was taught that in emergency braking to apply the brake pedal hard enough for the front tires to just start to lose traction, then back off slightly for minimum stopping distance.

Thanks,

Ken

 

The kindest thing that I can say about the stock brakes is"that they suck". Even the stock 4 wheel discs are not too good. Thats whey so many people do the 1LE brake upgrade.
Your stock brakes are fine,if your mom is going to drive the carr all the time.But the kind of aggressive driving many of us do. The stock brakes simply won't do.

------------------
82Z 305 w/comp 270 magnum cam,Edelbrock Performer RPM,Holly 1850-4,serpentine belt drive.TH700R4 w/B&M holeshot 2000 converter,& megashifter.1LE front brakes, 9bolt 3.27 w/1LE rear brakes.Aluminum driveshaft,boxed rear susp.poly everything,IROC swaybar+wonderbar. 70mph@2200rpm ASE Master Tech plus L2
also recently obtained a
'69 chevelle SS396 w/Turbo 400,3.31 posi,11.0 to 1, headers,etc. Latest project car,'86 IROC stock 305TPI hit on left side,but not too bad

 

I have to agree the stock brakes just aren't cutting it. I went to change pads the other day when I took off the right front wheel I saw a heat crack all the way through the front side off the rotor on the braking surface. I got them just a little too hot. I guess I will be out looking for a baer set up soon

 

on my 2nd 3rd gen, and I can't say I have any large complaints about my brakes. They will lock up if commanded to do so(tho I usually keep them right on the verge of lockup.) You have to make sure your brakes are in good shape though. If your rotors are warped, glazed, or too thin, you'll never stop worth a ****. I've never managed to lock my rears in either car, and I've had to do some serious emergency stops in both cars.. it's all about balance.

Anthony

 

The whole reason I am in this forum tonight is the brakes on my '87 are scary after I get out of the '98. Yes they are that bad.

------------------
87 Formula 350 13.94@96.67
98 Z28 1LE 13.15@107.59
1LE Owners Association

 

I've locked all four in my RS with disc/drums, but I have metallic pads and shoes and a couple other minor upgrades. I haven't been able to lock them since I went to the wider tires though...

I can't get my Z28 with 4wDiscs to lock up for anything. Even in the rain!

And my mom's 98 has easily half the stopping distance of both my cars and it's just a base model.

So to answer your question: yes. they suck.

 

My 89 IROC won't lock em up either, even with everything rebuilt or new. I checked the hydraulic pressure with the SS Brake Corp gage and it was good (1400 psi). I called a guy at SS Breaks and he said the problem is the single piston front caliper does not squeeze hard enough. Also think it is the small rotors.

 

Am i the only one here that thinks my brakes are pretty good? I just replaced rotors pads calipers and brake lines on my 86 with stock replacement parts and that thing stops great! Better than my 97 Breeze, and my 00' dakota. mine lock up pretty easily too...

I will admit though, that they could be much better. my sister has a 00' Prelude and that thing will literally stop on a dime. I've given myself whiplash form driving that car after being in my Camaro for a while, simply because the brakes are that much better.

------------------
My 1986 Z28 and more!!
85 IROC w/ 1364 miles!

R.I.P Dale Earnhardt

 

HaHa
I did a 4 wheel squeel stopping for a deer, and that is with rear drums. Air smelled good after that one. Hell, I was even able to stear while squeeling them around the deer.

------------------
86 Z28
LG4 rebuilt, yet tired again
700R4 (father just broke it)
Have 400 short block waiting for a rebuild still planning it out
Edelbrock catback

 

having driven everything from pinto's to porche's. 3rd gen brake are NOT THAT BAD. Great, certainly not. They do give EXCELLENT feedback though, for the simplicity, and relativly small size, they really can't be beat. Anyone with two hands, and half a brain can fully overhaul them, and upgrades are simple. At any rate, they don't do as well as the new F-bodies, as was pointed out earlier. But they get the job done, as long as you do YOUR job right. Sometimes I wonder if the question should be "does the average driver really suck that much?", i'm not saying anyone in this post, or on this board for that matter is a ****ty driver. With my experience at the busiest shop in West houston, that seems to be the case. Many "horrible braking" problems were cause simply by the driver not knowing how the hell to use brakes, just an observation.

Anthony

 

Drive a 1LE equipped third gen, and you will see the improvement. The stock brakes "suck"!

 

have driven a 1LE 3rd gen, and 1LE 4th gens.. and Ruf Porches.... I can stop with anything.. 10ft before I needed to


Anthony

 

I've locked up all 4 already with my 89 WS6 4-Wheel Disk with Raybestos pads.

 

I hve never locked the rear drums but the fronts are easy. For the best braking I have the fronts on the verge of locking up. They chirp like little birds. My car can brake at 0.88Gs which I think is pretty good for stock brakes

Robert

------------------
1987 IROC-Z Auto (LB9)
Black/grey interior with the stance of a streetfighter
I like to think of her as Arnold Schwartzeneger in a dinner suit

Mods
Custom exhaust. 4 Inch pipe from the headders all the way back to a single muffler at the rear. No Cat. K&Ns, AFPR and Air foil.

Future mods:
Cam change
New torque converter
New heads (maybe corvette L98)
Strut brace
Sub frame connectors
Ram Air

Current G-Tech times
0-60mph 6.26 seconds
1/4 14.74@100.2mph

 

when i got my car 4 years ago it would lock up all 4 wheels, but 40,000 miles latter it won't lock a single one

 

well well...yet again...I have stock disk/drum and I must say I have no real complaints about them. I constantly go over 80 MPH and I can stop rather effectively.
To those that think that "locking" up your brakes stops you faster...WRONG ANSWER. you have no traction when you lock them up meaning you slide faster, farther and worse off out of control. If I had a choice of a braking system that would not lock up and one that does at a drop of a dime I would take the ones that did not lock up...thats free anti-lock brakes.

 

Yeah, I'd like ABS. I've flat spotted 2 tires from locking up while emergency stopping. The second they lock though you have to ease off.

I think I'll get a rear disc conversion from BAER though

Rob

 

Camaro_hunter_d,

You are right, locking up the wheels is not the best way to stop. However, since you can't lock up your wheels, how do you know that your stopping distances couldn't be shorter? You don't know how close your tires are to breaking loose, or do you?

RMK,

That's how I was taught to handle emergency braking also. Apply pressure to pedal until you feel/hear tires just begin to lose traction, then back off just a bit.

Ken

[This message has been edited by Ken88GTA (edited April 09, 2001).]

 

I DON'T THINK OUR BRAKES ARE THAT BAD HONESTLY. AND YES I'VE LOCKED THEM UP BEFORE (GOTTA LOVE THAT SOUND). THOUGH THE 1LE PACAKGE IS A TREMENDOUS UPGRADE FROM FRONT DISC AND REAR DRUM SETUPS THAT ALOT OF US HAVE.

------------------
84Z28 L69 bringing back from the dead!!!
85Z28 Ram Jet 350 completely modded nose to tail.
"you need to get rid of that car, your always working on it"

 

I'd have to agree with raggn' 87. my brakes aren't the best,'84s 4-wheel discs aren't my favorite....but I just adapt and overcome. I'm pretty sure I could throw passengers clear out of thier seats during a panic stop. I use carbon-metallic* pads and all of my brakes are new,after spending over $500 on tires,I have no intent on locking up my brakes in any way. stock 4-wheel discs have a spongy pedal feel,but they will stop when you need them too!!

 

funny, most of the people complaining have some of the ****tiest brakes that GM installed in these cars... Having owned an 83 with rear drums, an 87 with 4 wheel disks, two 91s with rear drums, and a 91 with 4 wheel disk, and having driven MANY thirdgens, I can honestly say that the early disk brake setups are ****, worse than a good drum setup. However the 89 up rear disks are much better. If given a choice of brakes, disqualifying the 1LE setup, I'd go either rear drums, or 89 up disks, the rest just aren't as strong.

Besides that locking up the brakes isn't a great idea, you'll keep sliding, you'll flatspot your tires, and your tires will emit a loud squeel making you look like the idiot that just lost control of his vehical that you are. If you're seriously worried about the safety of your stock brakes you should a) have them serviced by a professional, b) Drive like a sane person, or c) upgrade to 1LE or Baer brakes.

 

I agree with Drew; and like I said before, my drum car brakes much better than the pre-89 4WDisc car.

But those of you who bring up driver skill are missing the point. It's just like Ken88GTA said above, if it's not locking up no matter how hard you jam the pedal, then how do you know it couldn't be better? If you're locking your wheels, then you know they won't get any better because any better would still lock the wheels at the same point and the best way to improve past that point is with better/wider tires. After that it's just a matter of knowing the brakes' feel and never letting them lock to get your shortest braking distance.

 

You also have to consider that tires also play a huge roll in stopping. You could have the top of the line BAER brakes, but if you have crap tires, those expensive brakes arn't going to do you ANY good.

 

Amazingly, i have to agree with Drew. My '82 (rear drum) stops great. If i wanted to i could smolder all four. My '83 with 4-wheel disk will probably kill me someday. The worst. The rears are working fine (not siezed) but it's just a junk system in general. Other than 1LE third gens of all types of brakes suffer form heat badly. Slow down quick from well over 100 and the pedal is a sponge.

------------------
Kenney
82 Trans Am WS7 notchback
83 Trans Am WS6 T-tops
Painter @ Chevy dealer
GM junkie

 

ive slammed on my brakes pretty hard before and they kinda locked up. its wierd, they kinda acted like ABS. well. i dont know. but my car stops pretty fast. and its all stock brakes(except the pad of course) and its got rear drum

and it stops faster then my sisters 87 Corolla

------------------
RED82TA5.7L

1982 Pontiac Trans Am
Cross-Fire Injected 5.7l V8
New TH350 Raptor with a shift-kit, 2600 stall torque converter, Eldebrock TES Headers, 3" Hooker Cat-Back.
Mods: 1.6 Proform Roller Rockers, electric fan, Corvette 5.7L computer chip, K&Ns, MSD 6A Ignition Box, MSD Conductor Spark Plug Wires .
Audio: JVC Kameleon CD deck, Jenson 4x6 front, Eclipes 6x9 rear, 2 10" mTx T4000 powered by a mTx 200watt amp.
Black Powder Coated 1990 16x8 Formula Wheels with 245/50/ZR16 Perelli P7000.
For Pictures go to
http://members.theglobe.com/RED82TA57L/mycar/


A cool Trans Am site with Message Boards http://www.transamgta.com

[This message has been edited by RED82TA5.7L (edited April 19, 2001).]

 

I'd like to clear something up before I comment on brakes. ABS doesn't make you stop faster. The basics are this, when you lock up the nose dives into the ground and you can do the physics calculations. The idea of ABS is to give the driver better control but not a shorter stopping distance. Another way to look at it: Will I stop faster if a.) I pump the brakes and keep the car rolling forward a little or b.)through the car (pretend it's front wheel drive) into reverse and nail it? The answer is b.)
Look it up on sites everywhere, basically the fastest way to stop is to get better leverage. That is why larger brakes work best, more surface area to apply the force. I don't want to get into this again, just search the web and you'll find more proof that locking brakes stops faster. Try <a href="http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/equipment/absbrakes.html">this site first</a>, it's a .gov site so it's not some bull*hit guys opinion.
Now about our brakes: They do suck for todays standards (thanks volvo), but for it's time they were very good. One thing I noticed with thirdgens is that it's easy to slow down with minimal force, but if you want to stop extra fast it requires a lot of muscle. The power assist is minimal compared to a lot of other cars. The advantage is better direct feedback then lets say a Grand Marquis (boat). Don't mistake good braking with effort because that is only half of the whole picture. I'd like to think of our brakes as being good for a daily driver camaro. Obviously if you're on this board you aren't into keeping things completely stock so in other words....these brakes suck!
One thing that would have helped would be better feedback and less effort but that would be where Baer comes into the game. 1LE brakes are nice and they do make a noticable difference. They also make more power..you know...with your wallet being so much lighter.
Another thing that many people over look is the actual brake pads. Usually the better pads take longer to stop on the first stop. That's usually how it works. So if you're having crappy braking get some high performance brake pads and try that out.
Kind of off subject but my emergency brake stopped working. I'm glad I tested it out before I had to rely on it. I found out that lint and carpet had gotten into the little ratcheting piece and it stuck in the up position. Tell me that isn't some ****. You would think GM would have used a stronger spring, oh well, easy fix..I just used a torch (not a lighter...a propane torch) to burn all the crap off, hehe , works great now after some lithium grease.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI! it's trenuous and efficacious while getting 23mpg highway with off the shelf eprom)
91 Red RS w/grey int, sq stereo (Alpine v12, kicker solo, MB quart premium etc)AIM: JPrevost

• Holley 670 TB unit w/ 1/2" spacer/adapter
• Edelbrock RPM vortec intake
• 350ho 330hp vortec crate motor
• 8" harm. balancer
• Stewart stage 2 water pump w/160 thermo
• SLP tri-y headers to full 3"
• Rebuilt trans w/ SLP shift kit
• Centerline 16x8's all around
• 36/24 mm sway bars
• Full poly bushings, even motor mounts
• SLP LCA and panhard
• Alston SFCs
• Edelbrock 3 point STB
• Global west steering brace aka wonderbar
• Eibach pro kit springs
• Bilstien high perf. struts and shocks
• All this and I still have AC

My websiteAny questions?

 

If anybody's rear J65 disc brake e brake is not working, you can email me and I will give u the factory replacement #'s for the new updated rear calipers that, so far, have been working for me for almost 2 years without any messing around with the brakes. Having the rear discs working as they should will make a HUGE improvement in the way our stock 4 wheel disc brakes operate. I also own a Nissan SE-R and it's brakes are great. But, when they are cold and below 30, I can not lock up the fronts and that car, too. I use all Nissan parts for the brakes, but, I use sticky aftermarket tires that are also slightly wider. The tires on our cars are very wide and very sticky. Tremendous force is required to slide those tires. I have been able to heat up my front brakes to the point if them smoking and getting the tires to slide (Pirelli 7000 Supersports) slightly, but, the car slows very quickly and I get a lot of nose dive, considering my Koni struts and the stiff stock springs. So, I can't fully condem our stock brakes as long as they are working properly to begin with. If your ebrake isn't working, then your rear rotor are doing nothing,and this totally kills your braking performance. So, depending on your driving and cars' power levels, cost cost of new rear calipers may be all u need. But, If you've boosted your car to 300+ HPs, then you need upgraded front brakes....Otherwise, get your brakes fixed and save your $$$ until you do get to that power level....;}

------------------
1986 IROC-Z28 L98 TPI BW WC T-5
Air Foil
K & N
Custom Ram/Cold Air Induction
Koni Gas Shocks
Spohn LCAs and PHrod
Art Houser/Moser 3.73:1 Torsen Diff
Amsoil lubes and oil filter
Flash to Pass feature & 100w Euro lighting
Recaro Driving seat
Hurst Comp + shifter
Random Tech SHF cat

 

Exept for a very few. If you drive a 1LE equipped third gen. You won't rest until you have you own 1LE brakes. I actually had smoke coming from my brakes after many repeated 0-50 panic stops. The brakes actually got better, and better. No hint of fade at all. If anything it actually improved
as they really heated up.
Thats my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

 

Hey Sandy from CT, I'll take those caliper P/Ns. I have to fix mine and I may just replace them with these. I am also considering changing to the 89-92 PBR style. This may help me make my decision.

ebmiller88@aol.com

Thanks..

 

I locked up my fronts once in a panic stop, but the backs blow. I had my car on jackstands in drive at idle, and the brakes didn't even stop the axles from turning (no wheels/tires on either) so they really can't be doing much of anything for a moving car!

 

yes.... unless you have 1LE

<font face="Arial"><a href="http://www.geocities.com/battstas/cars/transams.html" target="_blank"><font size="2">Click here to see my Trans Ams</font></a>
<font size="1">1986 Trans Am WS6 (#40,977 of 48,870)- Silver, 305TPI, 16" charcoal gray cross-lace wheels. 171,500 miles, LB9, 700R4.</font></font>
<img src="http://www.fbody.com/members/98TransAm/86/1986.jpg" width="200" height="80">

<font face="Arial" size="2" color="#FF0000"><marquee width="201" height="18" scrollamount="3" bgcolor="#000000">CURRENTLY: the '86 was rear-ended in Austin (about 3K worth of damage), and is undergoing repairs.&nbsp;</marquee></font>

<font face="Arial" size="1"><a href="http://www.fbody.com/members/98TransAm/DSC00037a.jpg">'98 Trans Am</a>- (#907 of 12,046)- 3.23 4A, Chrome Wheels. 63,700 miles. <a href="http://www.fbody.com/members/98TransAm/DSC00055ga.jpg">'99 Honda VFR800fi</a>- 5,500 miles, GIVI wind screen <a href="http://www.fbody.com/members/98TransAm/99rodeo1.jpg">'99 Isuzu Rodeo</a>- V6 2WD 24,000 miles. </font>

 

i have a 92 z and the e brake doesnt work and it feels like the rear disk arent working either. all the brakes on the car are new. any one know how to fix this?


------------------
92 z28 170,000 miles 14.20 on goodyear eagles only mods k&n and slp 13/4 headers and dual 2 1/2 exhaust
87 trans am 12.20 on motor too many mods to list

 

Try stopping a 65gto with a single resevior master cylinder-no power assist and 4 drum brakes from 135mph. I have the 4 wheel disc and i can not lock my wheels but the braking isnt that bad.

 

My aunts 65 ford galaxie is the same way with the brakes,what brakes?,lol,it doesn't stop for nothing,i hate it,but its fun to drive with the big a$$ school bus steering wheel,to think people actually raced those cars in the 60s,that is scarey.

------------------
www.rearman.com/camarokid.htm

If it aint a V-8 that $hit aint fast!,unless its a GN,lol!

305 tpi,700r-4 with shift kit,16 by 9 American Racing cross laced wheels,My mods are minimal,just a bunch of little $hit.Anyone know where to get underdrive pulleys for a v-belt set up?

 

Gimme a minute to see if the thirdgen factory brakes suck.

 

YES!!!!

 

I have been VERY impressed with factory 4thgen front discs (dual piston)brakes. I am currectly investigating the possability of installing these onto a thirdgen, and think I've found a reliable way. Anybody know where I can get some front Firehawk or SS brakes for under what Baer's and 1LE's would cost??? e-mail me, dhale18@cs.com

 

If it is possible to change the adapt fourth gen front brakes onto a third gen. You will still have to change the wheels. Further adding to the cost. The calipers are too large to clear anything exept the fourth gen wheels. Different offset,etc..

 

I agree with Jon that the ABS sucks. Just be glad our cars don't have that. I had a 94 S10 that had them. One day my son and I were following my bro' in a 96 Caddy SLS. The light went yellow and he was about to go through so I speed up. Well he hit the brakes to stop and I did too. The right rear locked up and the whole ABS system kicked in. I rolled right into him. There wasn't crap I could do after the ABS kicked in. About a month later I got a service bulletin that the ABS system on S10s and Blazers did that on dry pavement. I was to take my truck to a dealer and have them reprogram the computer so that they only kicked in the ABS on the back wheels when only the back wheels locked up. Nice timing huh?

As far as I'm concerned, our brakes rule just because you control what happens. Not a d*mn computer. Mine lock up (rear drums) if I nail the brake pedal, but at least I can let off a little to fix that. You can't do that with ABS.

------------------
92 RS w/t-tops 305 TBI Auto.
170K miles and don't burn a drop o'oil
-K&N Truck filter #1500 w, open ele.
air cleaner
-Dynomax 2 1/2" cat-back
-B&M TransPak
-Jet Stage2 Chip
-180* T-Stat w/ 185* Fan Switch
-JVC CD--Alpine speakers & 4ch. amp
Rockford 2ch. to 2 MTX 12" subs

 

As I have said before"drive a 1LE equipped car, And you will be a believer".

 

As for lock-ups, I've slammed the brakes after seeing a stop sign that was covered by a overhanging tree and locked-up the fronts from about 45mph-to-zero. I can't complain on the stopping distance since my front tires barely skimmed the limit-line. This, however was with BRAND NEW pads and rotors, I have rear drums, and I created serious flat spots in the front Goodyear Eagles.
I've found more of a fading problem, after 2 hours of hot, freeway driving, I almost rear-ended a sedan while literally standing on the brake-pedal while the car slowed as if I was barely touching the brakes... that was very very very bad, I came withing 3,4 inches I think.


------------------
Brian P.
'91 TransAM: 305TPI -=flowed=-

 

My 1LE setup just gets better with lots of heat. It not only does not fade, if anything they bite better.

 

I locked up my 92 RS with stock and a good set of comp t/a 245/50/zr16 and damn did it lockup, ****ting thing was I was doing 60kmh and slid into an Island, no real damage but pissed off I got cut off and the guy took off to F##King cabbies.

------------------
89 GTA 350 - stock all the way. But came with goodies, 3.27, dual cats, alum shaft. Mods and Website coming soon!!!

 

sandy... i have an 85 z28 that the parking brakes does nothing can you send me some info??........john