83 Crossfire TA

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I'm looking for something that sounds good, isn't that complicated and light. The car will be primarily a street/stip car, but I drive it nights and weekends and some good (and loud, the car may eventually end up loudish) tunes are a must. I'm looking for suggestions what to do.

What I have:

• 87 TA
• Older Pioneer head unit (actually I have 2, don't remember which one is in the car now) + iPod interface + Aux inputs, mounted in a custom fabbed alluminum mount that flush mounts it all, including the ipod interface box, in the stock pod, I just HATED the aftermarket kits that left them sticking out
• fronts- stock locations, either some older pioneer or infinity 4x6 speakers (don't remember which ones are in the formula and which ones are in this TA), they're OK, better than stock, not great
• rear- stock locations, custom mounting plates (MDF, sound deadener all around...) older Pioneer 6x9 2 ways speakers

What I want:

• Great sound- I know, it's relative, needs some power, some bass... the Sync setup in my '12 SHO or the Infinity 7 speaker surround setup in my Cummins Ram are sort of the minimum sound quality I'm looking for (and I've considered upgrading both, but both are a PITA to upgrade without totally replacing). Would like more clean volume than either have, but = would be OK
• I don't want to be adding extra speakers, amps... I want to keep this light and simple, this thing will probably eventually have a cage in it (minimum 6pt roll bar), I won't have room to add a bunch of stuff/custom pods...
• Willing to replace any of it, though I am the type to try make stuff that I have work
• willing to spend reasonable money
• can custom make just about anything- I've been building custom enclosures since I was 11 (arg, that's like 30 years), but mostly home and studio stuff, really don't know what's out there for car audio. Can also machine custom parts, fiberglass... and I'm willing to do it to mount the right stuff
• that said, I could care less about brand loyalty, or "these are the popular parts..."

Things you might be able to convince me of (most likely first)

• Adding a small amp to the deal, especially if it's small enough to be hidden in the dash or something, but over the years aftermarket head units have been getting better amplifiers
• adding a subwoofer- maybe, but unlikely. I know I can set it up to be easily removable, but if I get to take it to the track as much as I hope, it's going to be really annoying to pull it out regularly, and a good percentage of the driving will be without decent sound... a hard sell
• totally custom, non stock locations- not sure that it's really worth the effort, and I don't know that I've seen most of them done in a way that wouldn't bother me- like I know the advantages of installing fronts in the kick panels, there is _no way_ it's going to happen (I'm big, have big feet and the down bars for the roll bar are bad enough, even if i can make kicks work with that it's going to annoy the heck out of me).

So what would you do/suggest?

8t2 z-chev

don't know about aftermarket offerings,but i've noticed many recent model OEM speakers use neodymium magnets and plastic frames-making these speakers extremely light compaired to older style ferrite magnets with their heavy iron pole pieces.I don't know how these speakers sound though.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Yea, I have that in my daily drivers... my SHO has small speakers with neodimium magnets that sound awesome, probably better than the large speakers in the cummins ram (it's got 4 6 or 8" drivers in the doors, when I first bought it I was really impressed with how hard the factory system hit... again till I got the SHO).

Is anyone doing that with aftermarket setups? Something with a smaller magnet would be nice to wedge a 6.5, or better an 8" in the sale pannels (there's room for the cone, usually you run of room for a magnet unless you get shallow ones), or a 5.25 or 6.5" in the dash (I know, on a camaro you can do it with a heat gun, in firebirds there isn't as much room)

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

im using polk db461's and db691's in the back, its not done but i got the 6x9's in the my other car with 50Wrms to them and they sound pretty good. i think its very important to have a good Hu, the sound starts there and if its bad the bad just gets amplified. i like clarion stuff i got a pro audio unit im putting in the bird, if its not enough power im going to get one of those fosgate compact amps they have.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-PBR300X4.html

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

No one else has any recommendations?

jwfirebird- I honestly haven't looked at the class D amps... if I decide I need one I'm actually thinking this one looks pretty sweet (and seems to get good reviews online):
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...PI-P900.4.html

loomdog32

Small Amp - http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500KTP4...ower-Pack.html

I donno if it would fit in the dash of an fbody, as I haven't tried in the Camaro. I would recommend an Alpine HU if you went that route.


Anymore, I ONLY use component speakers in the $300ish range powered by external amp, usually with a crossover (lately using an active crossover - Audio Control 6XS). Having a job where I literally drove 100k miles a year; a good SQ system was important to me. The best advice I can give here is to go to a car audio stores and listen to the speakers. Every brand will have a different sound to them. What I like WILL be different from what you like. I personally only use Infinity Perfects or ARC Audio. I prefer the ARC speakers, but they can be difficult to find.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

the Rf pbr amps are light and small. the ppi one is normal size and probably not light

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

How do you like the Polks? Especially the db461s? I was suprised that Crutchfield recomeneded 2 Kenwood speakers with my requirements in mind (basically good full range response with relatively low power):
fronts, KFC-4675c:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KFC4...5C.html?tp=100
(My concern with these is the relatively low power handling, even the little Alpine that I plan on using puts out more than 2x that rms)
rear, Excelon KFC-C693:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KFCX...693.html?tp=91

Thoughts?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, Crutchfield was really big on that amp... I guess it's a good thing because I ran across one new in box on ebay for $85 a little before that and should have it later this week.

Along those lines they recommended staying with the Pioneer that I already had in the dash.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

if that alpine doesnt have a gain adjustment to balance the speakers you have to have a decent hu thats not going to distort the signal if you need to use it to balance the front to rear channels. that being said i dont see any issues with either deck you want to run, i dont have any experience with either but most have good things to say.

as far as the polks, i love polks ive had them in my other cars forever. the firebird though i ran into some other issues with and have been spending my time getting it more road worthy. so i havent finished my interior or sounds yet they are going to have to be last on my priority list.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I don't believe that the amp showed up yesterday... can anyone tell me what the 2 silver boxes with rca's labeled input/output that were thrown into the box are?

Ransford2987

crossovers maybe?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

they literally have no other markings that I can see... a crossover would usually have 2 or more sets of outputs for each input. I was thinking some sort of filter, but that would usually have some marking what the filter frequency is... I'm stumped...

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

thats what i would guess, must not be good ones though if they dont say anything else

Ransford2987

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTP-445U-ALP...211#vi-content
Includes pair of ground loop isolators (small silver boxes pictured)
So this is what I've found...can anyone explain what they do? I assume they remove some sort of interference from the normal grounded system of a car, kind of like shielding?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

without having to type it all out

http://www.bcae1.com/glisoltr.htm

Ransford2987

Thanks! That's interesting info. Sorry to hijack your thread 83 Crossfire TA.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

So funny thing... chatted with crutchfield and they strongly recommended the 4x6 Kenwoods that I mentioned before. Was supposed to get back to them with info about my HU, got a different rep and she was very "the Kenwoods are OK, but I'd go with these pioneers. They're warmer, less harsh sounding..."

OK, I haven't been the biggest fan of kenwood (but admittedly haven't played with any newer than about 5y/o or more), but have owned a ton of Pioneers.... Sold... went out to lunch, stopped at best buy hoping to pick up an adaptor harness and was walking buy the display and they had most of the speakers that I was looking at wired up. Played with them... no matter what combination I tried, the pioneers (TS-A4675R, which happen to be on sale on amazon)- meh, the trebble sounded tinny, the midrange a bit too prominent for my taste, the bass, well about what you expect for a 4x6. OK, I can probably work with that with a little tinkering, the dash will probably soften some of the top end too. Tried a few of the others and they made me feel much better about the Pioneers. Popped on the Polks... Wow, I mean really, they sounded better than some of the 6.5's in the display. The highs were clear but not obnoxious, the mids were smooth, didn't seem to show a dead spot, and the little buggers had bass, like seriously acceptable for that small a speaker.

Last ones- ended up getting an open box discount plus some additional discount, ended up comming home for $30some (under $40 with tax)


I played with the 6.5"s also (no 6x9's out on display), and funny, the Polks were not as distinct a winner. The cheapest pioneers, TS-G1644R (on sale for $29.xx on amazon right now) were my favorites for "normal" music, clear and mellow, nice bass... but then give them something with a beat and they turned into mud. The kenwoods were worse, muddy everywhere. They had some JBL's that were just weak the whole way around, a couple of others... I guess the polks were really the best, they sounded a lot like the 4x6's but bigger, fuller, and unlike the cheap pioneers that I really did like better on some less demanding music they sounded good and the same on everything I tried.

I got back and canceled my pioneer order (TS-A4675R 4x6 and TS-A6975R 6x9), got email back that they could cancel the 4x6 but not the 6x9... not sure if that's a good or a bad thing right now.

So far I have a decent 4 channel class D amp, about as good 4x6's as i could have hoped to get, and maybe some 6x9's, maybe...

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

thanks

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Skimming through, I can see some pretty good suggestions. I will just add a small part. I have noticed the light weight part of your post. I have infinity kappa 3way 6x9 in rear of my car and loved how they had a lightweight construction and external crossovers. You could put kappa in dash(if that's not what you have) and I believe it will sound OK. When I had a 100x4 rms powering the two 6x9s it was even better. I believe if you went with kick panel 6.5 with kappa 6.5 components and the others I said powered by a 5 channel amp with 5th channel to power a removable sub for track you could have an. easy system that is lighter weight and a sub that can be taken out easily.

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Also some cheap mods help a lot. I have speaker baffles behind my b pillar speakers and then filled entire b pillar with pollyfill(you can find this easy in quilting section of Wal-Mart) this enriched sound immensely. No more playing in a metal can anymore. Not to mention less rattles and noise outside of car.if you put baffles behind the 4x6 and put bass blockers on the lines your "little" speakers won't get washed out by trying to play so low. Leave that to the bigger dedicated speakers

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

There are several setups I have considered. From 2 to 7+ speakers. Another reason I vote kappa is the 2ohm rating so you can push less power and act like more.

2:use just 6x9
3:6x9 with sub and a single channel amp or a 4 with the extra 2 bridged for sub
4: either dash speakers powered by headunit,or kick panel powered by amp( 4channel)
5:same as above with sub
6:kick and b panel powered by sub ,bose rear speaker setup with replacement speakers and dash both powered by headunit
7 same as above with sub



Each would require more tuning to sound good but it seems like a simple approach. Try and set your smaller speakers to handle less bass and more the bigger the speaker. Higher end headunits will allow filters for certain lines or channels. Also some let you compensate for listening distances so speakers far away from you play a little sooner so the sound will reach you at the same time as the close ones.


As said before try and listen to what you like. I went all nerd and budget allowing to choose mine. I felt like they brought the most to the table, high sensitivity,"true 4ohm" tech, lightweight magnet, integrated heat sink,plus one woofer size and external crossovers. I'm taking info from crutchfield but it's true. Baffles,bass blockers,and poly help the sound.


Ha ha I know I said I would be quick,but I tend to obsess sometimes.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

What kind of baffles? I put some deadening on the outside quarters behind the speakers, but when I pulled my current 6x9's I found that it sort of melted and ran down the inside of the quarters, the original backing is in a pile down at the bottom of the pocket. I'd be really surprised if polyfill did much of anything in there, it tends to make the space sound "bigger" by slowing down sound waves but it doesn't really deaden anything.

Originally I had some homemade bass blockers for the front (just the appropriate size cap...), but the alpine amp has it as a built in feature, and the sound quality is much better...

I found that replacing he steel speaker mounting plates back there with ones made of hardboard did actually make a difference in sound quality...

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

So here is what I did (the short version, I'll post up bigger pics and more of a description later):
- I cut apart the adaptor harness that I made before, added the Alpine amp wired using the rca outputs on the back of the head unit. I also wired in the ipod interface, mounted it to the bottom of the head unit, and made a custom face plate (welded aluminum) with rca jacks and an AUX input also daisychained into Pioneers ipBus. Unfortunately I didn't take any pics of it but I got it all to fit in the stock radio pod, flush mount (yea, the HU is a bit old school):


From there I pulled the almost pristine factory 4x6's:

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

And tucked the Alpine SPS-4625's out of my parts car...


Even with the amp I wasn't particularly impressed so in came the Polk DB461's that I snagged. I also tightened all the loose fastners and covered the surrounding area with some iceshield hoping to deaden things a bit:




At this point I was pretty surprised at how decent this sounded with the old pionneer 6x9's in the back... but it had no real bass extension and was boomy in ranges.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Huh... that won't do...

I did a little digging and found some 8" subs/woofers that had a FS: 29hz, with Thiele-Small numbers that looked like they'd make a nice IB setup... not as sensitive as I'd like but they'll work, I think. While I was at it I ordered a small set of pyle PLST6 tweeters (I know, pyle, but they're really pretty decent for $9 a pair, and I wasn't too worried about getting great highs from the back).

Pulled out the router and started making some plates to mount in the back.

Ah... perfect recessed cutout:


these turned out OK. the 8" drivers take up all the width you have in that space, it's about as perfect a fit as you can get:


Spraybombed semigloss black (same with the pyle logos on the tweeters), glued some t-nuts to the back, the tweeters are friction fit in:

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Wired up some 12dB/octave crossovers, soldered all the connections, hot glued them to the back of the plate and finally made a harness adaptor so the whole deal will plug into the factory harness wires:


I also hot glued down all the wiring so it wouldn't rattle (yea, it's an ugly solution but it works), oh, and cut a groove in the bottom of the plate to run the wiring out through without crushing it... yea I hot glued that too.


Finally, mounted in the B pillars. The aluminum duct tape holds the factory fiberglass "baffles" for lack of a better description in place. Looks a little sloppy but it will be covered with the factory plastic:

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_696B050...7578539&awdv=m

Something like this. All I can say is when I remove the stock baffles, and then passed the entire b-pillar top to bottom with Polly I noticed a huge difference. Everything sounded more solid. If you went to the outside of a car in knocked on the b-pillar, you definitely to notice a difference. If you don't like it you can always take it out. But mind you, I packed it full I did not just barely put it in there. I think I can try and get pictures soon if that would help

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

I may not even need baffles... But they were cheap, and kept it clean

91camarosRS

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To me the stock "baffles" are a joke. I have not heard a setup like this yet and a @imilar setup with 6.5 components might sound better. But stock speaker sizes only I'm still sticking to my personal preference.Now you have that woofer I think you would like the poly mod.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

How much poly did you use? Poly can be compressed quite a bit, but usually isn't for filling speaker boxes... I'd bet that you could fill that space with anything between a pound and 20lbs.

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

I don't kneww the amount, but quite a bit. I remember you could push your hand through it but not real easy.the tough part was putting the top coat hanger screw back in as the Polly would grab screw.I know the concept for slowing the waves down. But I just wanted the car to sound less /like a tin can. I would just say buy a roll, put it in and try on one side.