After looking around at how cheap it is to build carb motors (to FI, comparitavely), i think while i have the 350 on the stand i'm going to do a vortec build.

i'm getting the heads brand new from www.gmpartsdirect.com for $243.99.

now, i'm not familiar with two other things:

1. what a good vortec intake for my setup would be

2. what a good flat tappet cam for my setup would be

i'm putting this in an old cutlass supreme, so for a while i'm going to be stuck with 2.41 rear gears. this is going to be an around town car, maybe a little street racing if anything. so basically i'm looking for solid power from about 2000-5000 RPMs or maybe 5500. i also need this intake to accept a quadrajet.

so i need something torquey, but with good power to 5000 or 5500. so far, i've only looked at GMPP and Edlebrock, and read mixed reviews of both through searches. my intake and cam i'm getting off ebay, because i figure it's harder to damage an intake or cam than heads. so i'm looking for something fairly cheap as well (of course ). i'm hoping to land about 400 HP, and as earlier described, i'm only looking for a mild cam, so my MPG won't suffer too bad. i'm going to get headers and true duals, so backpressure won't be a problem.

this is going to be put on an 85 block, so if i remember correctly, the intake will have to be compatible with the older bolt pattern.
is there any other problems i'm going to run into putting this on an old block?

any suggestions?

 

First off...ya might want to recheck your prices on the Vortec heads, I think you just quoted the price on ONE head...of course you need two.

And if you plan on running a decent lift cam, the stock GM Vortec's are going to need modifications to handle the extra lift.


Any Vortec compatible dual plane, maybe even a performer RPM will work well....

Since you're installing Vortec heads, you need a Vortec intake. The intake bolts to the heads, so it doesn't matter what block you have.

Do a search on the Vortec heads here, there is plenty of info to keep you reading a long while.


HTH

 

okay.....

well, i can get the 906 vortecs on ebay for $175 a piece, so close enough to 243 for a pair.

just looking at the edelbrocks, i can't really get a consensus. according to edelbrock, and some people on here, the vortec performer RPM seems to be the best compromise for low end power and high end. others say just to get the air gap, that the torque fall off won't be bad.

also, who all makes decent flat tappet cams? i don't really want to end up getting a GMPP one.

on the edelbrocks, am i going to be looking at any problems using the stock quadrajet? all i've seen mentioned is the EGR, which i don't care about.

 

How does this combo sound, Vortec heads,mild port n polish, rpm airgap intake, demon 650...and a cam to be named later...What do you guys think of the Whole edlebrock Etec system? Is it worth the price and does it really deliver the advertised hp?

 

Your combo sounds ok except those 2.41 rear gears are going to dictate a cam with about 218 degrees duration at .050" max in order to avoid this thing being a total slug off the line. Especially if you have a stock converter.

Also, this mild of a cam isn't going to take advantage of the higer RPM breathing capabilities of the airgap intake and Vortec heads.

Of course, you can always swap in a larger cam when you get some better gears in there.

As far a flat tappet hydraulic cams go, you can go with a generic Summit grind or spend some more money and go with a Comp or Crane.

 

I Dont plan on keeping the stock rear gears or converter, but I am really just slowly piecing my whole build up together, and i havent decided what ratios to go with etc.

 

Oh sorry lanceracer- I saw the original post by 80smetalfan and he has the Cutlass with 2.41's in the rear and I totally didn't realize you were posting about another combo!

 

do you think i could get away with a summit cam with the following specs:

Intake Duration 050 inch Lift 224
Exhaust Duration 050 inch Lift 234
Advertised Intake Duration 282
Advertised Exhaust Duration 292
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.465
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.488
Lobe Separation (degrees) 114

it's advertised as ideal from 2,200 to 5,700 which might be a little high for the pathetic stock stall. would i be better just getting an even milder cam and running 1.6 rockers if i want more lift?

also, i'm pretty sure i'm just going to get a performer RPM, because it seems to be the best compromise between high and low end power. with these gears, low-end torque will be my friend.

the stock gears will be in for a while, because this will be replacing my camaro as the daily driver, and i'll like the highway MPG i'm gonna get with 2.41s. eventually i'm probably going to replace it with 3.42's, which seem to be the best compromise between MPG and quickness. but not anytime soon.

 

Vortec heads, Performer (not RPM) intake, and with those gears and stock converter, you'd be better off with this cam.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...4742&view=4095

I know it sounds lame, but in order to get that boat moving with those gears and a stock converter, that will give you the best acceleration, plus it'll put you right at your cruise RPM on the highway (assuming you're using a TH-350).

Go with any cam with more duration and the car will accelerate slower until you change the gears and converter.

 

the cutlass is a late 80's model, so i'm pretty sure it's a 700-R4 (or maybe a 200-r4? ). i'm going to start tearing into it (taking the ruined 305 out) as soon as i get home from school, so i'll know for sure by tonight. if it is a 700-R4, i'd think the 1st gear ratio of it would help me out off the line. i really don't want to get a cam that's done by 4k if i can avoid it.

after checking, i don't think the performer RPM vortec will work for my setup, because it won't take a quadrajet.

i've thought about swapping in the rear gears from my JY-bound suburban, but i'd have NO idea what they'd be, let alone if they would be an improvement.

also, do you think the stock fuel pump will support all this?

 

The cam AJ_92RS suggests is a MUCH better choice for that combo. The other cam will be a total slug until you get the revs up, and will be much harder on fuel- the engine will be in "lope" of the cam when you are at highway speeds with those gears.

You may not be able to hear it over the 80's metal blasting on the cassette player

Assuming that's a 7.5" ten bolt in that Cutlass, go find an S10 or Astro van in a boneyard- four cylinder models usually came with 3.73's or 4.10's- grab the ring and pinion gears out and swap them in. Cheap gear swap. If you can build and swap engines, you can probably swap gears..

 

here's how i'd do it with your restraints..

leave the heads stock, other than a set of Z28 springs.
a performer rpm intake, a comp cams XE 256 cam. a 2200-2400 stall converter. 1.5 rockers. rebuild the carb.. get some good rods, and a d hanger. 1.5" headers

you'll get a very very torquey motor, very good midrange, will work well on the highway, and better with good gears.. give ya over 350hp, a boat load of torque.

don't touch the ports in the heads.

I have a vortec combo in my 86Z that's gone 11's.

 

this won't be the first motor build i've done (i've done a whopping 3 of em.....my car, the suburban, and my parent's ford taurus.... lol, i meant heads to the block up there )....it will be the first swap however. and i've never done anything drivetrain-wise, besides changing tranny fluid and mount. but i've got a couple friends who have done this stuff several times. i know one of them has done gears before. couldn't i pick up a better stall off of an S-10 as well?

and do you suggest 218* intake duration or exhaust?

lol, i'll be pleasantly surprised if the stock cassette player ends up being louder than the exhaust.

 

IF in fact you do have a 700R4 and it is a 30 spline unit you should be able to use an S10 converter which will stall a bit higher in a heavier vehicle.

I am assuming the 305 in there is not the original motor- most late rear drive Cutlasses with a factory V8 used the 307 Olds motor, likley backed by a 2004R tranny. A 700 has a square-ish looking pan, a 200 has a pan that looks like it has two pieces.

It's the 2.41 gears that threw me off- most factory overdrive equipped Cutlasses, well, G-bodies in general used lower gears when they had OD. THe earlier ones using a non-OD like the TH350, TH350C, and TH200C used the really tall gears.

Find out for sure which trans you have and let us know how the progress is!

 

Here's a pic of all the pans to help you figure which transmission you have.

 

Stock, that car will have the 2004R, as long as its an overdrive transmission.

The Vortecs suck when it comes to lift. I've got a .454" lift hydraulic roller cam in my engine, and I was so close to the valve guide hitting the spring retainer that it was a toss up as to whether there was enough space or not to run it as is. I was just under the recommended clearance, and I didn't plan on revving it very high, so I left it as is, and doesn't appear to be causing any problems thus far. Although I did break a stock rocker arm stud, that appeared to be a defective stud, just a fluke.

The pro-toplines are a pretty good choice over the Vortecs, as I understand it they already have better springs and screw in studs, both weaknesses of the stock Vortecs which add considerable expense to fix.

I was just reading another post (and I posted to it if it helps you find it) that has a link to pro-toplines page, and their '906 replacements are $232 each IIRC. Screw in studs and springs cost me $200+ for my Vortecs, on top of the acquisition price.

 

okay, got some new questions here.

firstly, not a question, but here's the beauty itself, everything for a mere $300. interior and exterior are immaculate, save for a little damage on the front passenger side of the car. it's a little dirty in these pics.





the car does assuredly have a 200-r4. haven't been able to get under it because of the flat tire. but it's at least a 4 speed OD shift indicator . the car is a 1986.

now, my questions are as follows:

I've had people tell me that the 350 will totally rip the 200-r4 apart. however, i thought that the 200-r4 was what they used on GN's, so i figure it should be good for a 350-400 HP engine. i know that the 350 will be making a lot more torque than the S/C 3.8 in the GN's could ever hope to, though. i've got a built (for towing) 700-r4 in the suburban that i'm parting out, and was planning to sell it, but i could keep it if i need to swap transmissions. any advice?

also, i'm planning on probably rebuilding the q-jet i'm using. where can i get some rebuild kits? i've looked on both eBay and Froogle and haven't found any. will a rebuild kit for a edelbrock q-jet work?

if this is true, i'd obviously be better off getting the pro-toplines. any second opinions on this?

lastly, i'm planning on trying to get some money off of parting out the 307 on ebay. can i expect anything for the parts from this gutless cutlass motor? how compatible are the 307 olds parts with SBC?

 

Yes, the 200-4R will probably come apart when put against a more powerful motor. If it's got a lot of miles on it, it really would need going through IMO.

If the 700 is from a Suburban *2wd*, you will have no problem as I understand it, swapping it with the 200. Need to cut the driveshaft down 1" IIRC. 4WD uses a different output shaft and no output shaft housing, so those would need swapped, and the trans would have to come 100% apart to get the output changed over.

Q-jet rebuild kits can be had at ANY major auto parts store. They will want the stamped in number on the drivers side back corner of the carb. (typically something like 170xxxx) Vertically stamped.

307 is worth nothing parted out. Complete, running, fine. Although it is an Olds small block, (260, 307, 350, 403) it is somewhat like the Chevy 305 in that it is a red headed step child. Some parts are interchangeabloe, but no one wants to. The later 307 heads flow even worse than early 307 heads, so no one wants them. No good for earlier engines.

 

okay, some new q's:

i am trying to avoid any budget problems, and considering just using the vortec heads and the stock 85 truck cam that's in the block, along with the vortec performer RPM intake. basically, i don't really know if i can spend the extra $200 for either the pro-toplines or machining the stock vortecs. with a stock set of heads with better valve springs, exactly how much can i get away with.

also, i can get my hands on a 2.73 posi from an IROC for $50. i'm thinking it would probably fit okay. wouldn't this change what kind of cam i can use (later, when i have the time/money to get the heads modded) entirely?

 

Truck cam should work fine with the Vortecs. The truck engines since the early 70's were all pretty pathetic in the HP department, but that doesn't tell the whole story, since torque stayed pretty respectable...they just aren't high RPM motors.

Stock heads will work too, but don't expect it to haul. At this point, I say leave it alone until you can afford what you want. From your first post you are now down to a motor that makes MAYBE 200-250hp at it's peak, and nowhere near the RPM you are talking of.