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Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

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Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Old 12-12-2017, 06:35 PM
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Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

hey guys itís been a while but Iíve been chasing my tail on my Camaro running rich. Iíve got a 383 stroker with A. Holley 850 double pumper hardcore series carb. Cam is .555 lift comp cam. I have done everything to try and lean this carb out. My cruise afr is 12.5. Lowering jet sizes doesnít help either. The only thing that helps is leaning the idle mixture to 15 but if I do that the carb is too lean during acceleration and cuts out. It will also die in gear if I have it that lean at idle. My plugs look rich obviously but not black rich. Mostly a dark brown on the porcelean. Anyone have any ideas? Is the cam spitting out unburned fuel and giving me a false reading? Car has a ton of power and runs great. Am just concerned about fouling plugs and bore ware. I use aces IV so i guess Iím not super worried about bore ware and the fact itís a once a week driver tops and once a month strip car. Any ideas or advice guys? Iíve been messing around with this for 8 months now. Should I just call it good since it runs so damn good? Seems like the more gas I throw at this engine the better it gets... confused. Help thanks!!!
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Old 12-12-2017, 07:41 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Cams do not "spit".

Have you tried the "Hooley Tuning" sticky at the top of this forum? I'll be happy to try to interpret the writer's intentions for you, to the limited extent I can.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:01 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by sofakingdom View Post
Cams do not "spit".

Have you tried the "Hooley Tuning" sticky at the top of this forum? I'll be happy to try to interpret the writer's intentions for you, to the limited extent I can.
Ok so blowing intake charge out of the exhaust... I say spit. Obviously I know cams do not spit.... tomato tomahhhto... cams will blow intake charge out of the exhaust which is what I think might be happening.
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:27 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Why do you think this happens only to your car, and only with this carb on it?

It is not a good policy to make up stuff like that to try to explain something you don't understand. That's like blaming it on alien abduction or something: it doesn't pass the test of tailoring "explanation" to "facts". See my signature for a terrific mental technique to follow in situations like this.

That said, it IS possible for a carb's calibration to be SO FAR WRONG for what the motor wants, that the motor misfires or that there's raw fuel passing through it or whatever. The answer of course is to properly calibrate the carb, instead of blaming the cam. Which is to say, make the carb's fuel delivery curves - fuel vs air flow at higher speeds, extra fuel vs power demand at WOT, fuel vs vacuum at idle, etc. - match the engine's demands. One does this by "isolating" each system of the carb in turn, in the order in which they interact, and adjusting each of those systems to satisfy the engine's wants.

Note that this is VASTLY different from posting on the Internet about "what size jets should I put in my carb" and other such fundamentally wrong-headed questions. Every engine is different; every car is different, such that the same engine will react differently to the different loads each car presents it with (weight, gears, converter, etc.); and every carb is different. Plus, every driver/owner has different expectations, and every potential use of the car (daily driver, strip, oval track, etc.) puts different constraints on the carb's ideal settings.

Which is why YOU should tune YOUR carb on YOUR motor doing whatever YOU do with it to make it work like YOU want it to work. The Holley Tuning sticky kinda walks you through that.

The order of adjustment is:
  1. Fuel level
  2. Main jets
  3. Power valve
  4. Idle system
  5. If any of 2 - 4 are WAY off, might have to go back through them all again, IN ORDER
  6. Secondaries
The reason for doing it in this order is, each step affects the ones after it, such that if you jump into the middle of it somewhere, and then you change a lower-numbered step afterwards, you HAVE TO go back and re-do what you did earlier. Doing it in the right order minimizes interactions like that so you (ideally) only have to adjust each thing once, and the next thing you adjust doesn't screw up the last.

Obviously if the carb is simply defective in some way, there is NO HOPE of ever calibrating it correctly. MAKE SURE it's in perfect working condition BEFORE trying to calibrate it. Those are 2 different things: fix a broken carb, vs calibrate a perfectly working but mismatched carb to match your engine. Put a "kit" in it before starting, with spray silicone lube on all the gaskets, so you can easily take it apart repeatedly. "New" is not the same things as "perfectly working"; so don't automatically assume that just because your carb happens to be new, if it is, that it's not defective.

Rebuild it, then go through the process, and let us know how that works out.
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:45 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

So Iím making things up by stating a large cam can be responsible for sending wrong 02 readings on an AFR due to Unburned gases leaving the exhaust?!? Dude donít sit there high and mighty when I state something that can actually happen. Your screen name says it all about you? Give some actual advice without trying to put down others by making **** up you dumbass!You are the same type of idiot who sits at the track telling everyone how to tune cars and then you get in your shitty 4 banger civic and go home to your trailer. Anyone who isnít a dumbass please respond. This guy
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Old 12-13-2017, 05:23 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Lots of people have big cams and still get their car to run just fine. Although ".555 lift" hardly qualifies as "big".

Sorry I tried to help. Too bad you're immune to it. Good luck getting your car to run right. Maybe someday when you develop enough humility to LEARN something instead of inventing wild-a$$ hilarious "explanations", you'll make some progress.

Have a wonderful life.
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Old 12-13-2017, 05:47 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Actually got a private message from someone who wasnít as self absorbed as your dumbass. .555 is a big cam compared to stock. I would say something like huge cam if it were like a .626 etc. So thanks for confirming to me again that you are in fact a dumbass! The fact that you donít understand larger cams can send unburned gases which provide a false reading on AFRs is comical to me. You talk a big game but donít know basic ****. You are one of those guys who needs people to act like you are gods gift to engine building. When someone presents a problem you donít understand you try to claim they made it up?!? What are you like 12 years old dude? Grow up man and learn some facts you puffed up crows ****. Go figure that was exactly what I had going on too! AFR was pig rich but it was due to a false reading because of the big cam. So if anyone else has this problem make sure to check your plugs and compare them to what your afr reading is. Oh btw have fun with your Honda Civic dude! I hope the wood stove keeps your trailer warm tonight itís getting cold! I swear I run into idiots everywhere. His screen name says it all!! I guess he wanted a screen name to match his brain hahahaha! Idiot!
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Old 12-13-2017, 06:38 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Well that was unpleasant...
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Old 12-13-2017, 06:48 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by zed-028 View Post
Well that was unpleasant...
X2.

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Old 12-13-2017, 07:00 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Indeed... uncalled for.
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:26 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

[QUOTE=sofakingdom;6188975]Indeed... uncalled for

oh now the baby is upset! Go bother someoneís elseís thread and get the hell of mine you rat bastard.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:09 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:56 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

What is wrong with a honda civic. They are great cars
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:58 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by midias View Post
What is wrong with a honda civic. They are great cars
Hell yeah.....they're like the Maytag of automobiles!
I recommend them all the time to friends who've never popped a hood in their lives
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:11 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Clear morning, moon was sure pretty. Radio playing
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:14 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

"It was a beautiful day....."
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:20 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Second cassette tape I bought! First was Styx.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:22 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by dlinger View Post
Second cassette tape I bought! First was Styx.
Youngster!
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:23 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by 86LG4Bird View Post
Hell yeah.....they're like the Maytag of automobiles!
I recommend them all the time to friends who've never popped a hood in their lives
Hell yea my wifes friend changed the oil 2x in hers over 6 years when she asked me to change it for her literally nothing came out of the drain plug. I refilled it then changed again after 200 miles (came out black). That was 30k miles ago and the thing is still running strong just went to florida and back.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:52 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

So. . .all fighting aside, I would try a smaller carb, like a 750dp.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:52 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by sofakingdom View Post
The order of adjustment is:
  1. Fuel level
  2. Main jets
  3. Power valve
  4. Idle system
  5. If any of 2 - 4 are WAY off, might have to go back through them all again, IN ORDER
  6. Secondaries
The reason for doing it in this order is, each step affects the ones after it, such that if you jump into the middle of it somewhere, and then you change a lower-numbered step afterwards, you HAVE TO go back and re-do what you did earlier. Doing it in the right order minimizes interactions like that so you (ideally) only have to adjust each thing once, and the next thing you adjust doesn't screw up the last.
This is very informative, but where would the squirters and pump cams fall into this list of operations? This guy could have problems dumping too much pump shot and is covering, or causing his actual issue. It doesn't seem like he knows what to do at all. Just so you don't take it wrong, I am not criticizing, I am genuinely asking. I am not a carb guy at all, and I only mess with one vehicle with a carb
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:20 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by scooter View Post
This is very informative, but where would the squirters and pump cams fall into this list of operations? This guy could have problems dumping too much pump shot and is covering, or causing his actual issue. It doesn't seem like he knows what to do at all. Just so you don't take it wrong, I am not criticizing, I am genuinely asking. I am not a carb guy at all, and I only mess with one vehicle with a carb
If OP wants help, he needs to start with the Holley Tuning sticky and report back after he has done it. I am sure he can get the help with squirters, pump cams (although maybe not).
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:38 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by RedLeader289 View Post
So. . .all fighting aside, I would try a smaller carb, like a 750dp.
Maybe, but I don't think we have enough info on car. I googled the comp cam lift and the power range in a 350 is 3000-7000 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...make/chevrolet. That would be lower in a 383 but I don't think carb is all that big if this is what he is running. That may not even be the cam he has.

Pretty good chance the new carb would have to be tuned also.

If he is determined the cam is spitting (which I unsuccessfully googled so this youngster has no idea what that is) I would call Comp Cams tech and see what cam he needs to install. The cam lifts the valves. Carb and intake put the mixture into the cylinder, spark ignites it.

Anyway, its a beautiful day, and the Christmas season - so Merry Christmas everyone. Somebody start posting some pictures for us to view
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:47 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by dlinger View Post
If OP wants help, he needs to start with the Holley Tuning sticky and report back after he has done it. I am sure he can get the help with squirters, pump cams (although maybe not).
I don't care about the OP, I am asking for me
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:49 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by dlinger View Post
If OP wants help, he needs to start with the Holley Tuning sticky and report back after he has done it. I am sure he can get the help with squirters, pump cams (although maybe not).
After his rant on Sofa, he needs to find another forum that knows all the answers. We obviously have nothing to bring to the party.
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:32 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by scooter View Post
I don't care about the OP, I am asking for me
Squirters and pump cams are good for fine tuning, once you've worked over everything upstream.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:38 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by RedLeader289 View Post
Squirters and pump cams are good for fine tuning, once you've worked over everything upstream.
sorry guys sofa really got me upset. Man Iíd love to punch that guy so hard in his ****in teeth. I wish I could just meet him somewhere and fight in a roped circle. Anyways. I doubt spitting cams will come up with much when you google it. Am I wrong to say that larger cams can recycle unburned gasses and spit them out the exhaust providing wrong 02 readings. Seems like a read about this a lot. Donít know how it actually happens. Sofa probably doesnít have this going on with his civic but for people who like to drive fast cars and waste more gas than you can shake a stick at.... ****ing sofa omg! This guy. Anyways. I was able to lean it out pretty good. 13.8-14.2 at cruise by going with a smaller PV and increasing my primary jet sizes to account for the loss fuel I was getting before. I think the power valve was going on to quickly and dumping gas in. Iíve run a 750 on this engine but the 850 was noticeable more powerful. My squirted sizes are 35s and Iíve played around with those as well. I think they work pretty well. Maybe I could get a dizzy with vacuum advance but vacuum advance saves too much fuel and this is America so Iíd like to dump more into the ozone haha! I also drilled out the PV restriction a tad to dump more fuel because my top end was WOT was getting a little hairy. Car runs awesome now. I mean Iím all honesty it ran awesome pig rich but I was sick of buying plugs every month since they were made in Japan and I donít like supporting those bastards. The cam is a comp cam something. .555 lift power band is 3-7000 I Mia posted before. 3.73 gears in the back on street tires so it chirps in reverse chicks dig that ya know. Well at least American chicks.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:40 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by Bob88GTA View Post
After his rant on Sofa, he needs to find another forum that knows all the answers. We obviously have nothing to bring to the party.
oh shut up bob you snow flake baby
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:25 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by Kiwallo View Post
Am I wrong to say that larger cams can recycle unburned gasses and spit them out the exhaust providing wrong 02 readings.
Are you talking about EGRing? This makes no sense at all.


Originally Posted by Kiwallo View Post
.555 lift power band is 3-7000 I Mia posted before.
Lift does not make it a "large cam" really, it's more the duration and overlap. and .555" lift wouldn't even be that much lift, must less much over stock, .050" is not much more than stock, especially when cams are running over .600" in new cars that pass emissions. Post the duration on the cam so we know what you think is a "big cam"
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:40 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by Kiwallo View Post
oh shut up bob you snow flake baby
If you're seriously looking for help/information then you will need to throttle back your insults and crass language. This forum is one of the most helpful and also the most friendly/clean forums on the internet, we plan to keep it that way.

Tuning carburetors is a long and tedious process. When you say the 850 gives you "more power" was that verifiable or just by the seat of your pants? 35 squirters are huge and likely what is contributing to your flooding issue.

This thread is your starting point, I highly suggest you give it a read and try what it suggests. It has helped countless Holley users on this forum. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...ey-tuning.html
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:52 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

I found his cam card.
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:41 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by scooter View Post
I found his cam card.
thereís that little bastard seriously thanks man
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:46 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Yes a big overlap cam causing false afr readings am I wrong?
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:54 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by RedLeader289 View Post
If you're seriously looking for help/information then you will need to throttle back your insults and crass language. This forum is one of the most helpful and also the most friendly/clean forums on the internet, we plan to keep it that way.

Tuning carburetors is a long and tedious process. When you say the 850 gives you "more power" was that verifiable or just by the seat of your pants? 35 squirters are huge and likely what is contributing to your flooding issue.

This thread is your starting point, I highly suggest you give it a read and try what it suggests. It has helped countless Holley users on this forum. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...ey-tuning.html
that would be right but if Iím cruising for 20 mind straight it remained at 12.5 afr.
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Old 12-14-2017, 05:30 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

where would the squirters and pump cams fall into this list of operations?
Usually, nowhere... the entire accelerator pump system is a "crutch" to tide the carb over during the short interval of time between when air starts flowing as the throttles are opened, and the time that the heavier, higher-inertia fuel begins to move. A "perfect" carb would have no need of it at all. Of course no such thing exists, so all carbs need a little bit of help in that regard; but once properly tuned, the need is minimal.

I can't recall ever needing to alter it in a carb after it was set up right otherwise. Esp a Holley... their pump system is usually WAYYYYY overkill.

But in any case, if the pump needs work AT ALL, it would be at step 5Ĺ.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:17 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Originally Posted by sofakingdom View Post
Usually, nowhere... the entire accelerator pump system is a "crutch" to tide the carb over during the short interval of time between when air starts flowing as the throttles are opened, and the time that the heavier, higher-inertia fuel begins to move. A "perfect" carb would have no need of it at all. Of course no such thing exists, so all carbs need a little bit of help in that regard; but once properly tuned, the need is minimal.

I can't recall ever needing to alter it in a carb after it was set up right otherwise. Esp a Holley... their pump system is usually WAYYYYY overkill.

But in any case, if the pump needs work AT ALL, it would be at step 5Ĺ.
An accelerator pump on a carb is a crutch? Accelerator pump tuning is a pretty big part of tuning a carb buddy. A perfect carb wouldnít have a need for an accelerator pump? So like an EFI carb like FITECH? When dealing with a moderately or extremely built engine the tuning of the accelerator pump is the only way you can get it to come out of the hole clean or accelerate clean for that matter.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:42 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

You still here???

I believe I was speaking to someone who was looking for information and trying to learn something, not someone who just wants to start arguments over stuff he doesn't know much about ... and the way his car runs, by his own account, backs that up.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:51 PM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Kiwallo, cut the crap mate, theres no need for any of this angst.

Any moderators feel like nipping this sh**show in the bud before it deteriorates any further?
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:33 AM
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Re: Holley 850 hardcore series double pumper pig rich no matter what i do!

Enough is enough.
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