rideon1200

The thing about Freeze 12 being a bomb is the biggest bs I have ever heard. I am a HVAC master tech with over 20 yrs exp. Everyday I turn on my TV and listen to all the refridgerators blowing up all over the USA.LMAO The reason autoshop will not use it is because they want to make 1000. on a convesion, rather then 10. on a good drop in repalcement like hot shot. By the way r22 and r12 are both flammable, and create a very toxic phosene(close) gas. R12 was also used in small refridg units, rather then buy new, we use hotshot, also goes for old refidgerators. I use it in my car, I can fill it for 30.00 and it is ICE COLD.

SC2camaro

hey guys


I thought i would post a tad bit of info here. Over tha past couple of yrs i have been having to recharge my GN's A/C to keep it blowing cold.i have used the freeze 12 stuff and it works great. it's now getting harder to find in my area. well to make a long story short my compressor gave up this yr( i knew it was coming too)


Well i got a new Delphi unit and new A/C lines and drier and tube. I flushed out the system and installed the said parts. I was doing over at my friends shop who hass a really kewl new a/c machine. but anyhow i got to researching on 134a conversions for GM cars. It appears that when doing the retrofit to the 134A there is a diffrent orafice tube to allow a greater pressure drop from the high side to the low side. well i made a few calls to some other people about this and yes that is correct. But the neat thing is that speacial retrofit orafice tube is actually for a ford r12 system. ( the blue tube) So since i found this info i went and look further into the GM orafice tube and learned that there is a few diffrent ones there too. Did you know GM uses a diffrent orafice tube in The A/C on a T-top car VS and hard top?. so anyhow i installed the ford orafice tube and with the 134a the air temp coming out of the vents is about 45 degrees @ a idle on a 92 degree day in a black car. When out on the highway the air temps drops even more down to 38-40 degrees.


Also you need to remember adjust the low pressure switch to kick out @ 20-21 psi VS the R12 setting of 25-26 psi since you have swapped out to the Retrofit orafice tube (ford r12 blue tube)

knowing this will make you have a much better cooling A/C while using the cheaper easier to find 134a freon.

black89ws6

You added too much oil. 8 oz is all that is required. 12 oz shouldn't hurt anything, but may reduce cooling performance a little.

Add no more than 3 cans of R134a (2.25lbs). Adding any more than that will decrease cooling performance.

The ford blue tube is a great way to improve the performance during a retrofit. It is a 0.067" orifice instead of the standard GM 0.072". This reduces the refrigerant flow which compensates for the differences in the thermodynamic properties of r134a as compared to r12. It makes a great difference. If your local auto parts people give you a blank stare when you ask for a 0.067" ford blue tube, order one for an 85 thunderbird with a 5.0 v8. That will get you the tube you need.


Both GM and ford have a variety of different size orifice tubes. I've never heard of a T-top car taking a different one from a hard top car. Care to share more information?

SC2camaro

The part # of the retrofit tube came back to a 88 model f150 with r12 but i bet it's the same one your describing.

I will get you some more info on that t-top orafice tube and try and see what the specs are on it.

black89ws6

The application I listed was just one of many ford applications that use that tube. If it's a ford tube, and it's the blue one, it's the one we're talking about.

Guro 305

What I don't get is if Freeze 12 is a direct replacement to R12, then why do you have to replace anything else in your A/C system?

What does need to be replaced?

black89ws6

Freeze 12 is snake oil. Just because it is marketed as an R12 replacement doesn't mean it's any good. It is just a blended refrigerant consisting of 80% r134a and 20% r142b. The R142b in the blend is the oil carrier. It is miscible with R12 mineral oil, and it is the component that carries the refrigeration oil through the system. The R134a component would not carry the mineral oil by itself, and the compressor would grenade. You are better off using R134a, and adding 8 oz of a compatible oil.

The irony of it, is the R142b in Freeze 12 is an HCFC, which means you still need a refrigeration license to buy it. If you have the license (which can be gotten online for $20), you can buy R12. If you have to get the license to buy Freeze 12 as an R12 replacement, why not go ahead and get the real deal (R12). It has actually declined in price lately, due to lack of demand. I got a case (12 cans) on ebay a few years ago, for $100. With shipping, it was still less than $10/can. Compare that to r134a at the auto parts counter, or to any of the gimmick "drop-in replacement" blends...

ringo234

First off I heard it was 20% R134A and 80% R124B. Either way I've I yet to find 1 link to the real blend, if that's what it is.

Secondly there are a lot of blends in common use today in everything form chillers to AC to refrigerators.

Third I bought Freeze12 on EBay and wasn't asked for a license. It's been approved by the EPA as a replacement for R12.

Fourth It works quite well in my car anyway.

Guro 305

Did you just hook it up to your hose, put it in your system and that's it?

ringo234

First thing I did was vacuum the system to remove any contaminates (a friend borrowed a vacuum pump from his work). I pulled a vacuum of -30psi.

I then used a set of gauges a got when I graduated from an HVAC school (never work as an HVAC tech though).

Anyway I connected the my gauges to Low side of the system and turned on the car and set the AC to Max. I then began charging the system. At first the compressor won't engage, but it will engage on and off until it finally stays on continuously.

black89ws6

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig.../refblend.html

Comparing stationary systems to MVAC is very apples and oranges, notwithstanding the fact that the examples you've listed are systems using the refrigerant they were designed to use. These are also systems where the entire refrigeration circuit is soldered up tight. No hoses. No o-rings. Leaks are rare. In the event these systems develop a leak, they have mechanisms designed to shut down the system before there's enough fractionation of the blend to damage the equipment.

I may have confused that part with another blend. There are other blends that include R22 as a blend component, and I know for certain that a 608 or 609 license is required for those.
Keep in mind, EPA approval means nothing regarding how well/long/reliably a refrigerant will allow an ac system to function. Their "approval" only assesses the envirionmental impact of the refrigerant.

Good. Did you put in at least 3 oz of POE oil with the Freeze 12 charge? You really need that, as in the event of a leak, you will loose enough of the R142b to stop oil circulation in the system, before you loose enough total refrigerant to disable the system. If you have some POE oil in there, that oil will mix with the R134a component of the blend, and continue to circulate within the system.

ringo234

Yes I bought an entire kit on E-bay, which included the adapter for the cans, 3 cans of Freeze12, 1 can of the recommended oil, and 1 can of compatible leak sealer.

I think everything was $39.00 + shipping.

P.S. Thanks for the link.

Guro 305

That's about what they cost. I saw whole kits for about $69.99 but they also included the thermometer, gauges, etc. Not bad at all. I did a Google search for Freeze 12 and their website says "you can combine with existing R12." It also says it's "non-flammable." Oh well, to each his own opinions. Ringo, I'm assuming that you don't need any kind of retrofits for the accumulator right?

And if you have the R134 retrofit plugs on there, can't you just unscrew those?

ringo234

"""""""Comparing stationary systems to MVAC is very apples and oranges, notwithstanding the fact that the examples you've listed are systems using the refrigerant they were designed to use. These are also systems where the entire refrigeration circuit is soldered up tight. No hoses. No o-rings. Leaks are rare. In the event these systems develop a leak, they have mechanisms designed to shut down the system before there's enough fractionation of the blend to damage the equipment."""""""""





I worked for a company called Advanced Thermal Sciences. They make Chillers for use in the Computer Chip Fabs. They Reached temperatures well below -20% and yes they have seals and o_rings although no rubber hoses. All the joints that weren't braised were steal union like connections with O-Rings.

These things leaked quite often, after a year or so in service. I know because we repaired not only ours but other manufacturers chillers all the time.

ringo234

No retrofits for the accumulator, and no R134 retrofit plugs either.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

What kind of duct temperatures have you Freeze12 people been getting?

Just saying "it's cold" is vague. I've heard people say on this board that 58° is cold.

black89ws6

It'll do about the same as R134a. The one system I charged with it got vent temps in the low 40's

Rayzor32

iTrader: (1)

I'd suggest sticking with r-12 if possible, if not try putting a small fan on the condensor.

jimdutro

iTrader: (1)

Here`s my 2 cents worth. My `88 Iroc needed the air conditioning serviced due to o-ring leaks, worn out compressor and other issues. Since I am now disabled I have to use mechanics to do some of the work on my car where I used to do everything myself. My system was still R12 and I considered the switch to 134 but after reading all the negative posts about it I decided to stay with R12. The shop that did the work told me they can get R12 for another 8-10 years so it was cheaper than doing the conversion. Hopefully my system will last another 8-10 years and then I go for the conversion to 134, after all the R12 is gone.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I will not touch R134-A with a big stick. The stuff SUCKS! I've even converted a factory 134a system away from it. You can sit in bumper to bumper traffic when its 80% humidity and 100*F, in both of my vans with the A/C cranked and freeze your *** off.

http://www.aircondition.com/wwwboard...rent/7842.html

http://www.aircondition.com/wwwboard...rent/4071.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/refrig2.htm

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/r12a-65006.html

rideon1200

Ok, I have seen this before. You can find adapters, yet you have to change the oil. Unless you go thru system, seals will start to leak. System will be ok, proably most people who are complaining didnt do it right. Also, if it leaked out all the R12, system has leak, need to fix that.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I played with mine when I switched it to R-134A about 3 years ago, GM Remaned DA6 compressor, flushed all parts, new parallel flow condensor, custom made hoses for 134-A, replaced the front evaporator, all new o-rings, new Ford Blue Orifice Tube and Thermal Expansion valve. I vacuumed it down for 2+ hours in 85* weather, then charged it with R134A to 80% of the R12 charge. I was able to get barely 55*F out of the vents on high blower, recirculate and it took it a good 15 minutes of actual driving to get it there. The compressor was struggling under 275 psi of head pressure @ 90*F and idle despite the air flow measures I had taken (larger 7 blade clutch fan, HD fan clutch, sealed condensor to radiator and radiator to fan shroud with foam, and a 10" pusher electric fan in front of the condensor). Looking for some help in the cooling department, I found Jungle Eddy's post on the Aircondition.com forum. I then did enough research to justify switching to HC-290. I once again pulled the system down and flushed it out. I put mineral oil in it and charged it per Jungle Eddy's recomeendations. Upon startup the air coming out of the vents gets cold almost instantly, so quickly in fact that the vents blow fog for the first few minutes in the humidity we have here. The unit got SO cold that it would blow air in the 20s and turn the evaporators, accumulator and hoses into a mass of ice in 15 minutes. I added a a new thermostatic cycling switch (88 Cadillac Brougham) which probed the evaporator temperature and shuts the compressor off when it reaches about 28*F. The compressor runs only a portion of the time, even when it is 105*F outside. The combination of less run time and lower head pressure even keeps the fuel mileage from dropping as much when the a/c is on. With the lower head pressure (185 PSI @ 90*F with both fans on high at idle) the compressor takes less HP to turn and the power loss is less noticeable with the air on too. Also a nice side benefit is that I have operated this system for 3 years like this, R134a molecules are smaller than HC 290 molecules and the HC290 stays in the A/C system. The factory R12 system in my van held 5 lbs of refridgerant, with R134a it holds 4.25 lbs of flammable material, on HC 290 it only takes 1.25 lbs.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I always ask for one for a 1990 Ford Taurus 3.0, its the blue .067". I use it on all my HC-290 swaps.

Rayzor32

iTrader: (1)

**** im going to look into this hc290 stuff

black89ws6

What was the name of the refrigerant you used?
HC-290 is actually propane. Propane, at a pressure of 185 psi has a saturation temperature of 104.4 degrees That's only 14 degrees higher than the ambient temp you gave. Even the best condensers out there need a minimum of a 30 degree temperature differential to get adequate heat transfer. A system running propane (hc-290) on a 90 degree day, running at a condenser temperature of 30 degrees above ambient, should be at 230 psi, at minimum. Keep in mind, this is a generous figure. In actual practice, most condensers would be at 50-60 degrees above ambient. Your case is the worst possible load on an AC system. Full size vans and suburbans with their dual evaporators are the most difficult to condense.

I am not criticizing your refrigerant system design. I simply find it interesting, and want to find out how it was possible you achieved these incredible results. Typical hydrocarbon blends include small percentages of butane and isobutane to keep condensation pressures within normal ranges.

I've tried one hydrocarbon blend before (envirosafe es-12a), and it performed poorly compared to either R12 or R134a. Whatever can cool a fullsize van under the conditions you described is a refrigerant worth my looking into.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I've got news, just because a pressure/temperature chart says it will be at "X" temperature and "Y" pressure, doesn't mean that you will not get "Z" pressure. Several other things are useful in determining "Z" including superheat back to the compressor. The cold refriderant running back to the compressor keeps the discharge temperatures relatively low, compared to R134a which will not even put a decent chill on the low side of the system in these conditions. Those pressure/temperature charts are really only useful if you have the system sitting in a static state and it is at ambient temperatures. When you put the system into operation, those charts are close, but not always accurate. The head pressure is low in the system because there is very little propane in the system to get the desired cooling. HC-290 that I refer to IS Propane but I run it with 30% Isobutane. The compressor discharge pipe runs at about 225*F on my infared thermometer. The outlet of the condensor runs about 115*F on the same 90*F day. The bottem of the condensor is barely noticeably warm when you touch it with your hand, compared to R-134a in the same setting which will darn near burn you. The outlet pipe of the evaporater into the accumulator runs about 30*F when the a/c compressor is running and warms up to about 40*F when its cycled off.

In the end, I know what the pressures read on the gauges and I LOVE the cold air when the air is cranked.

I cannot say enough about these parallel flow condensors though, they work about twice as good as the inefficient factory tube and fin design. Those worked well with R12, but terrible with anything else.

http://www.autozone.com/R,APP220656/...ductDetail.htm

ringo234

I just checked my temp at the center vent at 35°. I was idling in the driveway on a 72° day though. Oh, I'm running 100% freeze 12.