Just got the finishing touches put on my Gen VII install. Wire ties, split-loom, everything mounted and fastened.

I started the install Friday morning and just finished up. Time for a brew. The fact that I have a running 420 SB in my 88 GTA after less than 15 hours of total install time (including software config) is amazing to me, after my previous experience tuning cryptic GM ecm's.

It was a complete PITA to get the 396 in my 91 Vette running decently. It took well over 2 months and countless hours tuning on the dyno with my ECM guy to get it to a finished tune. I just ordered another Gen VII for the Vette. It will be a shame that all of the time spent on that car tuning will be wasted.....oh well....live and learn.

Do yourself a favor guys, forget all you know about GM ecm programming (sorry Grumpy) and let Accel or FAST worry about it. Believe me, its worth the money and time saved. The fact that the Gen VII ECM can auto-learn optimal fuel/spark/VE tables as you drive is alone worth the cost. The fact that you will be spending more time with your Wife instead of editing hex and burning proms, might get more money allocated for the hot-rod fund.

The trans, Nitrous, Boost, and other function controls combined with 3-D graphing and completely granular control over the various parameters, shame the GM/OEM system.

It is good to be hot-rodding in the 21'st century!!

Calmap is awesome software. I am an Electrical Engineer, and the last thing I want to do when I get home is learn to program yet another device.

Give me a GUI config wizard and call it a day. I will spend the time saved in learning the oem computers with my kids.

Cheers !!!!

PS Get the WB 02 option.....beg, borrow, whatever.....significant advantage over regular HEGO.....

 

I have the GEN VII w/wide band and will be installing it soon, i was wondering where you mounted the ECM and the WB box?

were you able to route the wires thru the fender or did you punch the holes in the firewall???

please let me know of any of the difficulties you may have encountered during the install??

thanks
larry

 

Larry,

I spent the time to remove as much of the oem harness as possible, intact as well as the oem ecm.

I have heard of some problems with the Accel harness, so I mocked everything up and test fired the engine before I actually installed the system. This may only be relavent to early Accel models, but it never hurts to double check.

Anyway, I drilled through the firewall and ran everything neat and clean as I could. I probably could have saved a few hours, but I will be taking this car to shows.

Other than the fact that I had a bad MAP sensor and problems with Win ME on my laptop (I upgraded to XP) I had no problems with the install. The manual is very clear and concise.

The only real complexity is if you decide to run sequential and use the dual sync distributor. I had to break out the old timing light to set a reference point in CalMap for base timing.

I did my first nitrous run this morning under Gen VII control. It is better than many $500 + NOS controllers I have seen. The fact that I can program a minimum lean a/f ratio for nitrous safety, is the main reason I went with the WB 02 option.

When you add up all of the functionality you get with this system, it is really reasonably priced imho. I am currently playing with the various TC lockup parameters, and everytime I go back in, the ecm has made more changes to the VE/Fuel/Spark tables.

I will drive it for another week with several full throttle run ups and then take it to the dyno as see what I get.

 

When i first purchased my unit (back in march), i started to remove the oem harness and found that it is mixed in with the accessory harness. so i stopped and put the OEM harness back together, cause i wanted drive the car this year, when i received my system i didn't get a installation manual, but i did download and print it out from the accel website.

I too go to alot of shows, so i will be installing the system as neatly as possible.

wanna make a trip to Detroit and help with the install???

I am not a electrical engineer, but i have been a mechanic for about 15 years, 4 years as a power generation technician, so i am kinda getting a crash course in electrical.

I'm sure i can figure this thing out.

thanks for the fast reponse

later
larry

 

If you do not want to hack into the the factory harness or go through the trouble of having to remove your factory harness all together, you can go with an interface harness. Interface jumper harnesses allow you to plug your Gen VII DFI to plug directly to the factory harness and are available from www.whiteracing.com and www.fasttrackperformance.com . Hope this helps.

 

So how much did the whole thing cost you (with the WB 02)??

 

Fastlife,

I already talked with white racing, and the harness is almost $400 when i have already spent over $2000 on the accel system,
i think i'll just keep going as planned.

Crazyhawaiian, it cost a arm and a leg...but hey, i still have one more arm and leg to go...

later
larry

 

Any info that you can share or when you get the dyno numbers would be appreciated. I have the 6.0 box now and have been thinking about upgrading to the VII. So please keep this thread alive.

 

For you it's worth the time and money.
Personally I still don't see where the big advantage is for that $2,400.

I'm glad your happy.

 

hey TA/wizard i too am installing a gen 7 and am in the finishing stage but am having a hell of a time finding the 4th gear wire for the torque converter. can u help me with that i was told that it is light blue in color to be plugged into the accessorys plug to control the lockup. when i ripped out the oem harness i didnt take it out of the tranny my other friend did and he no longer lives here and am lost to where that thing is and where does it plug up to on the tranny i found the torque converter clutch wire tan with black stripe. i have til this fridya to get my car out of thier shop any help would be appreciated.:hail: :hail: :hail:

 

Ouch $2400!

 

When you refer to 4'th gear on a 700R4 you are referring to the T/C in lockup mode.

The wire for lockup control is the tan/black wire. Thats the one that I used. I checked the wiring diagrams, and I do not see any light blue wire mentioned. There is a purple wire that unlocks the converter when you apply the brake pedal, but I do not recall a light blue wire.

As far as Grumpy's comments concerning $2400 for the DFI-7 system......time is a most precious thing, and is worth money in itself. You can only be good at a certain number of things.

IMHO, spending significant amounts of time reverse engineering an engine management system that was designed for
(1) EPA compliance,
(2) Fuel economy, and
(3) cheap manufacture, in order to extract more performance, is a waste of time. I look at it like why spend time to be good at something that will not be around in 5 years. I practice getting better at playing guitar knowing that a guitar will most likely exist in its current form when I am 60.

Learning to program well in hex/binary and then burning an EEProm when you could be making real-time changes in a graphical environment in minutes with minimal learning curve, is like learning to use a punch card reader to input data to a computer, you could do it, but why??

In the end though, I say to each their own :-)

 

You know what, at one point I considered the expensive aftermarket stuff myself. But with what I've seen on diy-efi.org and diy-wb.org I dont even think twice about expensive aftermarket stuff anymore. The DIY crowd is like an open source community, people sharing info. Its great. Set up a Romulator and make changes in real time. They even took care of the WB/02. What it basically comes down to is how much do you want to spend. Spend $900 (Commander950) - $2400 (GenVII) to have the machine do it, or spend $500 for the parts and do it yourself. Learning how to tune OBD1 cars definately wasnt something I planned to get interested in. After considering the options, I think its something usefull to learn and I can save alot of money in the process. To say it straight I want engine management on boost and I want it cheap. I also regognize the skills I learn will be usefull for the rest of my EFI car life, in whatever platform I try to tune. This ODB1 stuff might be considered old because it dosnt have pretty menus, but it gets the job done. When it comes down to it, its all 1's and 0's.

 

The aftermarkets go obsolete alot faster then the oems, and the oems are easy to find when and if one goes bad. I have yet to hear of an aftermarket ecm being tested anywhere near what an oem does. How many aftermarkets carry a 50,000 or 100,000 mile warranty?.

Might read up on the Romulator, and the Tunercat R_T software, it's as real time programable as your Gen VLCIIX.A

And the aftermarket ones are the ones that are designed with being as generic as possible so that one size fits all.

 

ok TA the tan with black stripe wire is to lock up the converter and i was told on the tranny forum that in cavity d on the plug is the tcc wire and the purple wire is the 12 volt for the solenoid in cavity a...... and cavity b is the other wire for the unlock the converter mine is green but wiring diagrams calls for light blue. can u confirm that. is it the one in cavity a(purple wire) that unlocks the stall....... or is it the one in cavity b(green wire)..... cuz i have already hooked up the green wire to be the wire to unlock and the purple wire in the switch ignition in fuse box. tell me if i need to change that? thanks very much

 

I don't want to get into the whole aftermarket vs OEM discussion, but I do have some questions.

Right now due to emmisions testing in Ontario, I have pretty much decided to stay with the OEM system and tune it, so that I can still control the emmisions equipment, without having to worry about a road side inspection.

Now Can the gen VII do this? I have not heard one way or the other, but I am more leaning towards not. From the research I have gone through there really aren't many aftermarket systems that can, and this is a concern to me.

If it will control EGR valves and other emmision equipment let me know, I may reconsider.

 

What people tend to forget is that aftermarket systems like the Accel DFI Gen VII and the FAST is that these ECU’s were developed to be race systems or systems to be placed in a car that didn’t originally come with an OEM ECU. The best analogy I can think of is using a Holley Stealth Ram or TPIS Miniram to replace the stock TPI. Yes a functional replacement, yes a high performance unit but again originally developed for high performance or race type applications, kind of like a less expensive, trimmed down version of a MOTEC race ECU. That’s why instead of seeing emissions control on these units, you see things such as the ability to control 1, 2, even 3 stages of nitrous w/ built in timing retard, the ability to use low impedance racing injectors or the ability to use a 1 bar MAP sensor to a 3 bar MAP sensor for high boost applications.
Again following the Stealth Ram/TPIS Miniram analogy, the Gen VII or FAST was not developed for complete emissions compatibility. The Stealth Ram/TPIS Miniram was created without thought to emissions (no EGR), because it’s intent was for a high performance or race type application that really doesn’t need emissions control.
To retain emissions control with the Gen VII or FAST, you must run a piggyback harness such as the one offered by www.fasttrackperformance.com . A harness like the Fast Track retains the factory ECU to allow continued function of such things as emissions or VATS while the Gen VII or FAST take over full control of fuel and timing.
Not trying to generate some burning chips over aftermarket ECU debate, just stating the difference in application that I’ve noticed. Just my opinion, take it for what it’s worth to you. Hope this helps.

 

The aftermarkets are also just about money.
They have to offer eyecandy to even have something to offer.

Yes, they do offer low impedence injector drivers, but $40 worth of MOSFETS gets you that with an oem one.

The aftermarkets came into being when no one had a clue how reprogram a stock ecm, and for a few years were the only game in town. But, alot has changed in reguard to reprogramming the stockers so they've had to invent new alledged goodies. ie how many cars do you know that actually use 3 stages of Nitrous?. They added that more for marketing then necessity, IMO.

And in some of the aftermarkets, when you go to a 3 bar MAP, the resolution gets incredibly lousy, ie 17 K/Pa per cell.

With the availility of 57 PPH high resistance injectors, and R_T the aftermarkets have little to offer other then slightly simplier programming, and that is only a good thing if you don't want to take the time and learn how good the oem stuff really is.

And with a little code work someone could use the EGR, CCC, and A/C outputs for controlling 3 stages of Nitrous.

 

I think you guys are missing the big picture when you knock the aftermarket stuff. It's not all about money, except for the fact that it needs to be affordable to market. Alot of the guys over at Mr.Gasket are gearheads at heart, and are using resources to bring technology to the interest. I'm under the understanding that Accel worked with GM & Ford engineers when designing the Gen VII, and a lot of features the OEMs have are in the Accel ECM. They DON'T have the restrictions factory designers have when it comes to budget, otherwise the factory units would have built in GUIs and interfaces similar to the aftermarket guys. They are into saving fractions of a cent on the assembly line, not a restriction the aftermarket guys have. Also, the initial costs of the OEM ECMs have been paid for 20-fold over the years, and most are over-due for an overhaul. So, you will see initial releases of aftermarket ECMs be a little expensive, but it's coming down. Look at the cost difference of the Gen 6 as compared to the Gen VII, and you'll see what I mean. Anyway, someone pumped money into R & D and production of aftermarket stuff, and I have to give them kudos. Remember when all the hot rod guys thought modifying cars will be killed by 'computer controlls'? Think about it...

 

Ya, I've been thinking about it...for the last two years..

 

And? What, you just got a newer computer controlled car 2 years ago?

 

[B]

I agree with Grumpy. You never see Xtronics, Tunercat, etc., in the magazine ads. Thats for the big corporations like Accel, FAST,etc. Whenever the words "programming your own eproms" are mentioned, they are heard by the very few. IMO, its all an advertising thing.

Dont get me wrong, there are certain people who do not have the time to do their research, and re-program eproms, then the aftermarket is for them. To each his own.

 

Do you have any names to go along with this working with GM/Ford engineers?. I'd suggest that in large they've just been looking at the hacs that the DIY guys have been posting about.

Do you really think that a relatively small firm can compet with GM for engineering?. Both, have strick budgets. Not to mention the aftermarkets, HAVE to be a one size fits all system.

What intial costs are you talking about?, the ecms/pcms/bcms/vcms have been in a constant state of evolution. Other then the case being AL, there's little in common between what was used in 85, and 05. Look at how long the Gen VI was marketed, and it wasn't until it had a competitor that they even changed.

As the tuners get more and more educated, they'll be demanding more and more sophistication, IMO. And that means, again playing follow the leader with GM/Ford. If the aftermarkets are so clever, please name something new and unique to them, other then what's necessary, ie displays. From what I've seen the total *newness* offered in the aftermarkets was the Gen VII and it's use of manifold temps, along with MAT, and CTS. And the oems with *just* MAT, and CTS, seem to do very well. I'm not too sure where that's just their way of doing what GM does in some of it;s codes anyway, but without the extra sensor.

 

No, referring to the two year old post you replied too....

Hey, at least you're using the search function

 

i would personally rather spend the $2400....if you are putting alot of money into an engine to make good power, why would you skimp out on the ecm? to me it is like assembling an engine without having the proper machining and other safety precautions done first...IMHO skimping out is halfassing...now if you have someone who can burn a chip that will work without a hassle that is one thing...learning on a new engine with a budget and time frame is another...also think the 7 would be much more efficient any day of the week....

 

I can see both sides of this discussion. I have worked with both aftermarket and OEM ECM's. They each have their advantages.

First of do not cut the OEM ECM's short. OBD1 still has more BASIC features than the latest aftermarket ECM,s.
Diagnostics
Temp vs. idle
enrichment maps
etc. etc.

OBDII Diagnostics will blow aftermarket out of the water, but of course we all know sometimes they lead you way down the wrong path. DIAGS are carried over. My opinion is that is do to Corporate laziness. Seen it first hand.

Hands down, aftermarket has the market cornered with easy to use menus and graphics. This is worth its weight in gold. Infact OEM are scrambling to develope this type of thing. In that aspect aftermarket is way out in the lead. No one wants to deal with lower level anything anymore, it is not "VALUE ADDED". I am working on a project right now were a functional block diagram is put together and software libraries can be put into each block depending on what function you want.

Everybody is using everybody's stuff. Nothing is propriatary anymore. So it needs to be universally easy to use. Time is money and knowledge is money. You eliminate both of these if you dumb down the interface.

Here is one personal experiance that is pro OEM. I was tuning an old Jag that was using an electromitive TECIII unit. The problem I was having is that when the engine would idle it would be overly rich and unpleasant to be around. The only adjustment available to me (for that problem) with the TECIII was the VE map. If it leaned it out for idle the car was weak down low. If I was my trusty HC11 730 ECM I could of worked with the PE table and what not, and that problem could of been solved easily.

 

the aftermarket stuff, kicks butt.. very easy to use, and very capable.. if you can afford it.

the megasquirt stuff, is even better.... easy to use, totally flexable, cheap, but you have to know what you're doing... its not for everyone

the NEW OEM stuff, like the LS1 PCM and HPtuners, kicks butt... just as simple to do as the accel unit, only just as flexible and powerful as the earlier fully hacked GM ECMs..


but the old flash a prom(or promator like thing), ECMs kinda suck for most people... the guys here that know what they're doing (you know who you are) love it... why not? does everything you need it to do, and its cheap.... but think of the 1000s of guys out there that DONT have the know-how to learn everything needed to have them be effective.





diffrent people, diffrent solutions.... heck, diffrent cars, same person, diffrent solutions.... if i ever build a SBC again, it'll probly run off of a commander950 or accel VII kind of ECM.... or a megasquirt like one... meanwhile, all of my gen III/IV SBC swap cars will keep the 99-02 GM PCMs... they're great!

 

Now im heavily considering to go to efi.

I have a new engine being built ,it will be dynoed in a month or two.

should i dyno it first with a carb to see which injector size would fit??or run it with the efi???will it work with my msd ignition system??

does the kit come with injector bungs to weld into the intake manifold???
how much would this all cost???

i would like to use an external fuel pump also.

 

The oem computer allows for finer resolution, tuning then the aftermarkets, so in that respect, the $2,400 is the one that's skrimping out.

Waiting until the *new engine* is done, to learn how to tune it, IMO, just doesn't make any sense. IMO, one should try getting familiar with EFI long before starting on a hotrod.

Not to mention that carrying a spare Gen VII is kind of expensive. While rare, they still do fail, and most any junkyard can supply an oem ecm, none that I know of stock Gen VIIs.

Yes, to each his own, so far thou, $2,400 is alot to spend, and not have a safety net.

 

Slecting injectors is about HP, and application, more then about CFM. With carbs you have to have a pressure drop across the venturiis for it to work, with EFI that's nothing to worry about, in theory you could use 8, 4" diameter butterflies.

Generally any of the aftermarkets are configurable to any ignition system. Using an oem ecm might reguire some tinkering to get things to talk to each other.

The mechanics, ie manifold, fuel tank, etc. etc., aren't part of any EFI *kit*. Searching around this site will give you all sorts of leads about manifolding, and gas tanks/fuel pumps.

 

psst, go look at the resolution on the new stuff. more then your GM ECMs....

 

Had you purchased a Felpro/FAST efi system 9 years ago you would still have a system that has great support in the racing community. after all those years the basic FAST/Felpro/speedpro system with the same old wide band sensor ( that holds up VERY well to the leaded racing gas) is still extreemly popular with racers and street car guys.


thats my 2 cents

Doug

 

I still prefer OEM ECM's because they're cheaper, but one thing I have to say is that they wont cut it if you need something other than a batch fire setup. Or maybe I'm wrong (if I am please lead me in the right direction) but I haven't seen any OEM systems doing sequential fire or anything. I've been researching the airflow of the different EFI Intakes for our Gen 1 SBC's and a EFI system with individual control over each injector is beginning to look like a real plus at high (15psi+) boost levels. Not so much for more power or anything, but for more safety regarding individual cylinders running lean.

 

The '89 TTA is an SFI setup. There are also GM ECMs that are SFI in the 8-cylinder class.

Al.

 

the factory ecu's are nice but they dont have wide band 02 support and are not compatable with low impedance injectors. and the software isnt as friendly to use. other than that I like the factory stuff.

Doug

 

pretty much every new car made since the late 90s has had sequential injection.... the LS1s PCM can account for cyls with trims.... im pretty sure the later LT1 cars can too.

really, the only advantage the older ECMs have now is price.
they're harder to tune.
dont have the resolution of the newer systems
and while you can argue that you can get them at any junkyard easily, that doesnt help on a road trip (unless you bring one with you)... the local auto parts store is going to take just as long getting one overnighted as your aftermarket PCM.


regardless of what grumpy just said (i know he knows his stuff, but he did exaggerate a little..) the harness and ECM is cheaper then 2400.. heck you can get it cheaper then 1000... just keep running the same injectors and manifold that you do now, or that you were going to use...

as time moves on (and these GMECMs dont) their advantages go away... in the 90s, this was THE way to do it... aftermarket ones suck... today, the aftermarket ones are better in everyway except availability.. you cant even argue about how reliable they are.. a few have been going for years... they dont have EMI probs, and while we're on the subject, half these ECMs are 14 years old....

 

Sorry, I meant as far as OEM ECM's commonly used on our gen 1 SBC's. Closest thing I've heard about is a conversion to run the LT1 ECM's on our cars but you also gotta change the distributor setup. That would rock for N/A. Yup those LT1 and LS1 ECM's are SFI. In my case its gonna be a boosted application, doing alot of reading and so far the 749 Sy/Ty ECM seems to be the OEM ticket, just wish it was SFI instead of batch (I opted for an actual 749 w/ extra injector driver for low impedance injectors instead of a 730 with 58 code).

One thing is for sure, the aftermarket stuff is much easier to tune since it has programs that pretty much do it for you. Must be nice hehehe.

I'm not totally anti-aftermarket, I look into those too. Anyone seen BigStuff3? That one is pretty sweet.

 

ok guys, what would you recommend for my car using factory stuff?

'88 gta t/a
358" with a t88 turbo... 20-22# boost. th400/9".

i want something i can adjust at the track between passes if need be, and i would like to use a mildly modified tpi wiring harness.
wideband would be awesome if possible.

 

Or drop a ls1/6 ls2/7 w harness and KISS your headaches g bye


January, 2007

EFILive’s R&D labs have produced the world’s first Real-Time Automated Calibration System (RTACS) for the LS1 PCMs. Based on the high performance Roadrunner real-time hardware; RTACS is a natural extension of EFILive's tightly integrated Scan/Tune feedback loop, used by tuners around the world for over 12 months.

RTACS uses feedback from a Wide Band O2 sensor to allow the EFILive software to automatically adjust the VE Table (as an example) in realtime so the PCM's commanded Air Fuel Ratio's match those measured by the Wide Band O2 sensor. Because EFILive and RoadRunner use High Speed USB ports there is no lag in the real time system and changes happen instantly.

With new features such as Map Masking, Data Filters, Target Indicators and both Fine and Coarse adjustments, EFILive’s real time tuning solution is impossible to beat.

Map Masking allows the tuner to restrict the target cells so that the real-time calibration adjustments are applied to only that user defined subset of cells.

Data Filters remove data spikes and transient values that would otherwise skew the feedback loop and produce erroneous results.

Target Indicators highlight the cells that are within the correct percentage.

Fine and Course adjustments allow for large adjustment early, followed by finer adjustments as the automated process nears completion.

The EFILive RTACS feature gives your LS1 PCM true real time automatic tuning capabilities, normally only found in expensive aftermarket EFI computers designed for racing applications.

EFILive’s RTACS is currently in beta testing and we expect it to be available in a week or two, along with some other software enhancements.
As usual EFILive’s free software update policy means ALL EFILive customers will be able to download the new software package free of charge and those with access to a RoadRunner PCM can start using the real time, automated, calibration adjustments.

Edit: RTACS is now available as a public beta. Please see this thread on the EFILive forum - http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4585

 

Ummm....FAST needs to know your basic setup so they can get you the correct box/wiring for your car.

I tried the DIY prom thing and I was totally not impressed. Between a system that was complicated and programmers and such that most times didnt work, it was either go standalone or carb because where I was at was where I definately didnt want to be. That was with a car that wasnt heavily modified and wasnt living up to its potential. I am a mechanic and a gearhead. I am above average with computers, but I am not a computer engineer.

I decided to go with the XFI because it will control just about all of what I need. (Even has EGR if you want that sorta thing.) It will control TCC lockup, AC idle up, and has a boost control solenoid. It will control boost by MPH vs TPS. Think about that. If you have a turbo car, you can control how much boost and when/where it comes in at. 1st gear can have low boost, 2nd has more, 3rd hits full boost. It has 4 full programs you can switch between. In my case it will be 93 street radial, 93 drag radial, 104 drag radial, 104 full slick. You can pretty much tune it 4 totally different ways and have a deadly consistant car. A 600whp car without traction issues? This is a technical gearheads wet dream.

You guys that still use the stock computer, more power to you man. But for me, I am going for the high dollar system which suits my needs alot better than what tuning a OEM computer can do.

 

I have to agree with Grumpy and Crazy Hawaiian. Some of tte comments I'm reading here about OEM ECMs haven't looked at where the SOTA is for tuning. RBob's DynamicEFI, Mangus' TPRT and Moates have brought real time tuning within reach of even the modest pocketbook of people like me. I think Bruce's point is that if you're talking about special purpose or narrow purpose driving like the track, maybe the aftermarket works very well. But for overall street driving and day in, day out performance, can't beat the OEM stuff. That's what it was built for. I don't think you'll find controls like Proportional Gains in the aftermarket ECMs and that kind of stuff means a lot for driveability. JMHO.

 

I think it can be looked at the from the other direction as well...

Moates. Rbob, and others have done some very fine work to bring real-time tuning to the stock processors. Aftermarkets have had real-time tuning for decades, and in that time, their engine control technology has been playing catch-up to the OEM stuff.

The Gen 7 control strategy (over 6 years old) has multiple PID controllers, each with fully programmable gains for all 3 parameters. For example, the Fuel Feedback process is tuned by setting 2-dimensional Proportional, Integral and Differential gains, each plotted over the range of an estimated air flow calculation. Most "tuners" don't know what the heck those are, or what they might be used for. However, it was put there for those that CAN make use of it. I can say with plenty of confidence that it is pretty damn easy to tune a reasonable engine combo to the point that driveability is indistinguishable from that of a stock controller -- other than getting pushed further back in the seat from the increased output over a broader RPM range. The only provision is that your aftermarket controller needs to be sophisticated enough to allow that to happen.

Without saying too much, I can tell you that the technology and processing power that is in the Gen 8 platform (yes, it's on the way) will rival the capabilities of the oem controllers and put most aftermarket units to shame. From a pure engine control standpoint (aftermarkets aren't too concerned with all the smog controls and other EPA-mandated stuff like that; they don't help you make power) I think the tuning resolution will be better than an OEM piece, since most of the processing power of the module will be focused on what we, not the EPA, think is important when controlling an engine.

There's a reason why there is a growing push for fuel injection to be made legal in the more prominent NHRA classes, and there's also a reason why the OEM stuff won't EVER be used there -- actually, many reasons, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

How many people who DIY tune know what that is and how to use it? Not many.

 

There's is no excuse for that. They should. There's plenty of stuff, from very knowledgeable people, on this website to learn. Its tough to properly tune a motor for all around driving without addressing the PID controls. A good portion of the bitching I see on here about idle and cruise surging could be dealt with the PID controls. GM wouldn't have put them there if they weren't needed. I have to agree with Grumpy that its easy to scratch your head on way the engineers have done things, BUT at the end of the day, they really do know what they're doing.

 

Just because you took the time out of your life to learn how to tune GM computers doesnt mean everyone else should or has to. There are people like me who value their time greatly and would rather spend the money on a aftermarket system which can be easily tuned and does not require a degree from MIT to get your HOT cammed car to idle without stalling or fouling plugs. Playing with the stock GM computer is not worth it to me.

This goes to all of the people with the same general sentiment. This is not intended as a flame. But if you feel that using a stock GM computer in your car somehow makes you a better gearhead, or a elite camaro owner of some sort and makes you feel good about yourself in general then more power to you. But you will NOT get one morsel of undeserved respect out of me or alot of the members on here. Doesnt matter what your car runs its best with, as long as it runs its best. Thats what will get any of my respect.

 

Your sense of inadequacy is showing.
Nobody said I or anyone else considers themselves superior because we use a a factory ECM. I am raising the issues of the functionality and the "bang for the buck" , not the capabilities of the person using them.