Project 3.4 Camaro

Story is I swapped to DIS, and from an 870 ECU, to a 165 ECU, I used the following wiring instructions which are posted as being for both a 302, or a 870 to 165 swap:
Repin-
A11 -----------> C12
B4 ------------> D4
B6 ------------> B12
C9 ------------> D11
D2 ------------> C1
D8 ------------> C15
D13 -----------> D2
D15 -----------> D16
D16 -----------> D15
ALDL E --------> ALDL M
ALDL M --------> ALDL E
-------------------------------------------
Disconnect-
A2 ------------> disconnect
B9 ------------> disconnect
C12 -----------> disconnect
-------------------------------------------
Splice-
C15 -----------> D16
D14 -----------> D15
-------------------------------------------
New-
D10 -----------> A12 (splice)
Knock sensor --> B11 (with memcal mounted ESC board)


However, after making the swap, I cannot get my car to run, it fires, which suggests the DIS swap was successful, and will catch and start momentarily on occasion and with starter fluid, but will not run. I have since found a site with a full pinout list, for what I think is all the 3rd gen ECU's. The list can be found here:
http://chevythunder.com/fuel%20injec...%20#1227165%29
After cross referencing this list, I came to a conclusion that the 870 and 302, do in fact not share a wiring pinout, after discovering this, I began cross referencing the 870, to 165 pinouts, to come up with my own rewiring diagram, however due to different terminology between the two pinouts(or at least there seems to be some) and some seemingly not present things, I am not 100% sure what the new pinout should be, but to the best of my ability, I should need to do the following for 870->165 ECU:

b11 should either be empty or MAF, but if not empty then what is b6...
A11->C12
B4->D4
B5-EST ref in, nowhere to input on 165, or same thing as dist ref in which case leave as is??
B6->should be no wire present, if there is could be MAF, if not, MAF is at b11
B11->B12 IF b11 is MAF, if not MAF then what is it??

C7 (OD req)->C8 (M/T OD req)?? or ->A7 (MT OD, or AT TCC)??? Not sure if one if these M/T ODs is supposed to be AT OD?
C8 (A/T 4th)->C7 (A/T OD SW)?
C9 (fan req)->C1 (fan rly)?
C12 redundant TPS signal(disconnect), or ->D2 (CTS, MAT, TPS 5v return)??
C15-Disconnect

D2 (cooling fan ctrl)->C1 (fan rly ctrl)
D3 (cyl sel)->disconnect, or ->B5 (dist ref)??
D8->C15, (EGR temp SW, in my case obsolete, can probably disconnect)
D10 (MAF grd)->A11 (analog grd return)
D11 (AC fan)->disconnect? (obsolete in my application, should be able to disconnect)
D12 (TPS 5v grd)+D13 (CTS, MAF, MAT grd)->D2 (CTS, MAT, TPS 5v return)??
D14 (INJ 2 4 6)->D16 (INJ 2 4 6)
D15, nothing
D16 (INJ 1 3 5) disconnect

Project 3.4 Camaro

870-165 completely cross referenced, underlined and bold are differences, underlined is where I suspect they are the same pinout but different terms.


A1=fuel pump relay-both
A2=air switch-both
A3=canister purge-both
A4=EGR control-both
A5=SES control-both
A6=870-IGN ECM//165-IGN PWR (difference in terminology?)
A7=870-TCC control//165-M/T od, or A/T TCC
A8=Serial data-both
A9=diagnostic-both
A10=speed sensor-both
A11=870-MAT//165-MAF analog grd return
A12=870-grd//165-system grd (terminology?)

B1=batt 12v-both
B2=fuel pump signal-both
B3=EST ref low-both
B4=870-EST control//165-unused
B5=870-EST ref in//165-dist ref (terminology?)
B6=870-unused//165-VATS signal
B7=870-EST signal//165-ESC signal (typo?)
B8=A/C signal-both
B9=unused-both
B10=P/N switch-both
B11=870-MAF signal//165-unused
B12=870-unused//165-MAF sensor in

C1=870-unused//165-fan ctrl rly
C2=air control-both
C3=IAC B low-both
C4=IAC B high-both
C5=IAC A high-both
C6=IAC A low-both
C7=870-OD req//165-AT OD SW (terminology?)
C8=870-A/T 4th gear or M/T 1st gear//165-M/T OD req
C9=870-fan req//165-unused
C10=870-CST signal//165-coolant temp signal (terminology?)
C11=unused
C12=870-TPS back up mode signal(meaning redundant TPS signal??)//165-MAT signal
C13=TPS signal-both
C14=TPS 5v ref-both
C15=870-INJ_2_4_6 (B)//165-EGR temp sw
C16=870-battery 12v//165-battery (terminology?)

D1=870-grd//165-system grd (terminology)
D2=870-cooling(engine I assume) FAN//165-CTS, MAT, TPS 5v return
D3=870-cyl sel//165- system grd
D4=870-unused//165-EST cntrl
D5=EST bypass-both
D6=870-O2 grd//165-grd (terminology?)
D7=o2 sens-both
D8=870-EGR temp sw//165-unused
D9=unused-both
D10=870-MAF grd//165-system grd
D11=870-unused//165-A/C fan SW
D12=870-TPS 5v grd//165-MAF burnoff rly
D13=870-CTS, MAF, MAT grd//165-unused
D14=870-INJ_2_4_6 (B)//165-unused
D15=870-INJ_1_3_5 (A)//165-INJ_1_3_5
D16=870-INJ_1_3_5 (A)//165-INJ_2_4_6

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Ok this is a better place to resolve this. Where did you get the pinout for the '870 ecm? If it's from a chiltons I can almoast guarantee it's wrong. I don't wan't you to go through wiring that thing per chiltons and have to wire it back to stock again because chiltons is wrong. I can get you gm issued pinouts to look at.

-Edit- NM, I see you were looking at the chevy thunder website for a v8 '870 pinout which is different from the v6. I hope you haven't started repinning yet.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I haven't, but blech, v8? Can you get me a v6 870 pinout?

Oh btw, beyond all reason I am missing either E or M(I think M) altogether from my ALDL, which I never touched, it has a wire in almost, if not every slot on the one row, but the other row has all of one wire, and its on the extreme edge, and EVERY data I found unanimously agreed on switching E and M, so I'm at a loss completely on that one.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

IDK what to say on the aldl, switch the wire you have and hope it datalogs. When I get to work tomorrow I'll pull up a chart for you. It appears to me that you have a pair of blue and a pair of green wires together at the injector pins, you should have a green and blue pair on each, or you can simply disconnect one of each. Gramatical mistake on my part that I had to clarify before so for future refrence just disconnect C15 and D14 outright instead of splicing. Updated chart for you to look at on pg.1 of the 'V6 owners, take a look' thread.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Ok, here's the thing...

165 has the addition of the electronic spark control, Knock, module. That is what ESC means. This wire is blue.
O2S has a ground. This is different from the system ground for ECM reference, even though it connects in the same spot. This wire is tan.
165 has 2 AIR solenoid drivers. 1 sends the air from the pump to the manifold and the other to the converter. I guess that when both are inactive the air just vents?
TPS backup is redundant. As in not really necessary but used for comparison. Similar to one of each injector signal wires. Each can have one wire cut off as they are merely spliced in.

Differences should be, as according to my 87 FSM, for the 302-165:

A11 is added for the analog MAF ground (similar to the ground for the CTS, IAT, and TPS), black
B6 is left empty after moving to B12, brown/white
B7 is added for the ESC module, dark blue
B9 is deleted if you have the power steering pressure switch, gray
B12 is the MAF signal wire, brown/white
C1 radiator fan relay control, moved from D2, dark green/white
C9 A/C fan switch, moves to D11, left empty, dark blue
C12 IAT signal, tan, moves from A11, delete TPS backup, dark blue
C15 EGR switch, moves from D8, white, delete cyls 135 injector signal backup, light green
D3 added, system ground, black/white
D4 EST signal, moved from B4, white
D8 EVRV EGR sensor, moves to C15, left empty, white
D10 added, system ground, black/white
D12 added, MAF burn off relay control, black
D13 sensor 5V ground, moves to D2, black
D14 deleted, cyls 246 backup, light blue

:edit: And for some reason, the ALDL data wires are spliced together as well. Removed both of mine without cutting anything, 2 terminals on one end, one on the other.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I actually have one each of color INJ wire at d15, and d16, a green, and a blue for each, but for the actual connector I have a dk blue spliced from something I disconnected, But I will try omitting the redundant wires.
Going by your above 302->165, what exactly does the new b7 get connected to? As for B9, thats for TCC lockout yes? In which case I have nothing for that atm, but I have a switch I am going to wire in, instead of shelling out for some obscure relay thing, would rather be able to lock it out anyways for 1/4s. C9 I should be able to ommit since I have no AC, I assume. I would only need D12 for a digital MAF that reads voltage(I think) as opposed to analog frequency correct?
Other than those things and the injectors you guys came up with the same pinout for 302-165, once you tell me what to run a new wire from b7 to I will try that, but aside from that and omitting the redundant INJ wires I don't see anything new to try, already tried grounding A11, and I just realized b7=knock sensor yes? In which case I have no use for it, I had to remove the knock sensor to use my headers, I might add one in eventually, but I can worry about that then.
Seeing as there's hardly anything new to try, I would definitely like to get my hands on an 870 v6 pinout if one of you guys can post one for me, it will pretty much be the only thing left to try, after that if I still can't get it, its the shop's problem, though I strongly prefer doing all work myself where at all possible.
I did actually notice an extra and or ghost wire or 2 in the 870 pinout, so it definitely is different for the v8, I suspect they will be pretty similar though, the ALDL thing really troubles me, I see no logical reason for mine being different. And I am unclear as to which ALDL wires you are saying are spliced.
I will probably be making another attempt at getting her running at the end of this weekend or start of next week, have to get back to my mother's to finish my aunt's car too, so hopefully we can come up with some stuff for me to try by then, stuff like this is a pita when you don't have your car with you, or another car to go back and forth as much as is necessary...its a lot of spend a day researching/consorting, and spend 10m fiddling on the car, then more research/consorting...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For the '7165 E & M are tied together and go back the ECMs serial data line pin. E is used for 160 baud ALDL comm, while M is used once the ECM is switched to 8192 baud ALDL comm.

RBob.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

B7 is for the knock module which you need to add. May or may not throw a code.
B9 is left empty, no such animal as TCC lockout as the 165 merely grounds the TCC solenoid based on VSS and 4th gear switch inputs.
Need to have D11, which comes from C9, or the radiator fan will run ALL of the time. Again, with no A/C, this wire is grounded.
165 MAF is analog voltage, V6 MAF is digital pulses, ground is in A11, signal is in B12 from B6, and burnoff relay (due to hot wire MAF) is added to D12. Need to use the analog MAF as the 165 won't read digital. Pick up a Ford MAF or one from a later model GM as the V8 ones go out more than ours do.
ALDL E and M are spliced together and go into the same terminal in the ECM.

Project 3.4 Camaro

If I would have to get a new MAF, it might be easier for me to just switch to MAP, is the 165 capable of running MAP?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, search for 808 code on the DIY_PROM forum.

RBob.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Will do, I have the MAP that came on the 3.4 plenum kicking around somewhere, and I'm on a budget, forgot to ask, is it possible to run both sensors on the 165? And if so which would be the primary? I just don't like the throttle response of MAP systems, I haven't driven a stock MAF car, so can't say that that's the only factor, but my camaro definitely responds quicker than my 3100 car did.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

3100 cars use both MAP and MAF, but I wouldn't relate the lack of throttle response to what type of load calculation device a system uses, since the 3100 cars also had autotragics, and this usually meant there was some sort of torque "management" on them that makes them feel sluggish.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I programmed your fan as n/o because you said you removed the a/c. I assume you clipped the ground wire on the harness somewhere in the engine bay, if not try removing it and see if your fan goes off. The '165 can run either digital or analog mafs if using the 32B code (which you are), I programmed it as such with the stock v6 maf tables. And yes there's existing maf/map code for the '165 ecm, I'm using it on my car right now lol. It's power adder 6E. Sorry I spaced on the pinout yesterday, busy. Will post up mon or tues.

Project 3.4 Camaro

not sure what "n/o" means, I am guessing not on? And I believe I just left the connectors in the engine bay, where exactly does the ground grd to? And I thought I remembered something about the correct code being able to retain the stock MAF, wasn't sure though. At any rate, I hope I can get this swap sorted out monday or tuesday, I will check all my pins again, and remove the redundant INJ wires, but short of that and trying a new pinout from scratch for 870 v6->165(assuming the results are different for pinout) Then I will just have to have the shop sort it out.
Just so I can be sure to rule it out, the prom(?) on the memcal's removable board had fallen off during shipping, I doubt it would've gotten damaged, but maybe it did, is there any way to test it? Also, while I am fairly certain I orientated it correctly, such that it is readable when viewing the memcal board, with the white chip on the right, and the black prom on the left.
And if I can't sort this out, how easily do you guys think an average shop could sort it out?

Project 3.4 Camaro

Question:
ECU controls the fuel pump yes? Well is there any reason it might prime the pump, but not run it while engine is running or cranking? I mean I still can't help but feel like I'm not getting fuel, just kind of have this gut feeling about it. I mean it almost seems like the pump is only priming, I am contemplating wiring it to a toggle to test this theory, is there any particular reason I shouldn't? ie. bad for pump, or ECU wouldn't like that? I'm going to have someone sit back there and listen if it runs while cranking or not(it should run while cranking correct?) before I toggle it, but if its not on during cranking and should be, I am probably going to toggle switch its ***.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If the pump runs for 2-seconds at key-on, engine-off, and then won't run when cranking, the ECM isn't getting distributor reference pulses (DRPs).

Every time a DRP is received by the ECM it resets the 2-second pump run timer. So a short crank and stop should run the pump for another 2 seconds.

RBob.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Does DIS still send DRPs?

Project 3.4 Camaro

Where does the signal come from in a DIS setup??
Nm, figured out which pin it is, if I stick a test light in it, will that tell me whether or not its sending a pulse?

Project 3.4 Camaro

I thought my DIS was good to go, but after you telling me about the DRP that sounds like its my culprit in all of this, makes perfect sense. Engine fires, but won't start, seems like fuel issue, but fuel system should be just fine, and I could swear the pump isn't running during cranking, seems like it just primes, I just didn't know about the DRP thing, but now that I do, that is my main suspect for sure.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A distributor and DIS have the same interface between it and the ECM. The reference pulse is a 0 - 5 volt square wave.

On the '7165 pin B5, PPL/WHT, is ref high, 0-5 volt.

Pin B3, BLK/RED, is ref low. This is a ground reference to the ECM from the ignition module.

RBob.

Project 3.4 Camaro

DIS pin -----> Connection
A ----------> Ground to block
B ----------> Ign pwr (coil orange or pink wire)

A ----------> Crank sens. high
B ----------> N/A
C ----------> Crank sens. low

A ----------> Bypass (dist. pin B)
B ----------> EST (dist. pin D)
C ----------> Tach Lead (coil black w/ white stripe wire)
D ----------> N/A
E ----------> Refrence (dist. pin C)
F ----------> Ground (dist. pin A)

So I need to check pins E and F on my ICM connector.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

In the 3-wire connector, there may be a 3rd wire as a shielding ground which minimizes noise and interference, which is what B is...

Also, tach wire should be white. IIRC, the black/white is the trigger wire on the coil. The tach wire is in the same connector on the coil as is the pink wire (the gray one). Don't think it's going to be different on your 85 as I'm pretty sure I have a coil connector from an 84 S10 that has pink/white.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Ok, made a rather interesting discovery, I went to test that the dist reference wire was sending a signal, and when I connected the test light, something interesting happened, with key ign pwr on, every ~2 seconds the fuel pump would run momentarily(wasn't cranking) so what exactly does that mean? Also, just realized I inadvertently gave that wire juice, accidentally had the test light ground at the pwr connection on my alt(old one had a ground terminal on it, this one just has a power terminal..), but I am still uncertain what this means? I think it would actually run if I put power through that wire...

Project 3.4 Camaro

Ok, I have a theory that my ICM might be bad, makes sense, I basically gave the ECM a surrogate reference pulse when I hooked it up to power right? Will have it tested tomorrow.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Here's the pinout. N/O means normally open, as in not grounded.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Don't go putting +12 volts on the ref high line. As I mentioned above it is a 0 - 5 volt signal from the ICM to the ECM. If anything, put an LED with a 220 to 510 ohm resistor in series between it and ground. Make sure to use the correct polarity, or use two LEDS in parallel one in each direction and hte resistor in series with them.

Then see if it blinks while cranking.

The DIS ICM needs to see the crank reference signal too. So the crank sensor/wiring is also suspect.

RBob.

Project 3.4 Camaro

As I stated it wasn't intentional, I don't think the sensor is bad, and I know for a fact the wiring isn't as its utilized exactly how it was stock, plus I don't think it would fire at all, if the ICM wasn't receiving CPS signal, does however seem like its not sending one out for whatever reason, will have it tested today, hopefully its my culprit.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Sigh, had the ICM tested, it passed, though I noticed the 6 pin connector didn't have pin F, which makes me wonder if it actually tested for the DRP..
I think I've heard of tests like that being wrong before, everything points to the reference pulse...I had my head right by the sending unit listening for the pump while I had someone crank the car, and nada while cranking, between that and what happened when I accidentally juiced it, I still kind of suspect I have no reference pulse...

Project 3.4 Camaro

Would a gauge cluster light bulb or 2 suffice instead of an LED? or maybe the cabin lights in the footwells if not gauge lights? I don't have any LEDs lying around, but I have plenty of gauge lights from my old cluster, and pulling a footwell light would be a cinch too, but I really want to try starting the car with a voltage source at the reference wire, because I think it will run, then I know for sure the problem is the ICM or CPS, I suspect the former..

sam24th

iTrader: (1)

hey project 3.4 did you ever get yours working? I have the same symptoms as you were getting. My fan kicks on with the key in the on position. My car also seems to momentarily start but wont stay running. I have the 870 ECM also and was swapping to the DIS ignition I had recieved from bl85.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Nope, wound up giving up on it and putting that stuff back to stock.

sam24th

iTrader: (1)

Dang it I was hoping you had gotten it wired up properly and running. My car is acting the exact same way as yours was and I cant get it to run for the life of me. I am 100% positive I have wired it up correctly at this point as I have taken the wires and returned them back to stock and then repinned them again 3 times now just to make sure. The pesky fan still cuts on with the key in the run position. Im thinking I will probably give up and return it back to stock again and just bite the bullet and get a new dizzy.