camaronut88z28

Hey guys,
I am in the market for a new engine management system to replace stock 165 computer currently in my car. I bought all the stuff from moates a couple years back so i can burn my own chips as well as do the emulator stuff. After spending countless hours on here trying to make sense of it all as well as the time spent just trying to get the laptop to communicate with my ecm just to get some datalogs, I have come to realize this is silly wasting all this time and money on this out dated slow a** setup. At the NHRA drag races this weekend I stopped by the holley booth and talked to the guys over there a little bit. They recommended their hp efi computer and wiring harness for my setup, and explained that there computer is much faster and easier to tune. Does anyone have any opinions/experience with holley's efi they would like to share? Would you choose holley efi over F.A.S.T efi?

My car is a 1988 iroc, i currently have a 383ci, w/ 200cc aluminum r.h.s heads and a slightly aggressive camshaft with 233/240 duration and .538/.560 lift. I have the mini ram intake manifold with 58mm throttle body.

Any info would be appreciated, thanks.

Vanilla Ice

I'm an oem kind of guy. I think there's always a fix to problems and it's cheaper and easier to work with what you have. If you are dead set in aftermarket I'd say go with the EBL p4 as the man is here and supports it directly with community involvement. There is no better situation as far as I'm concerned.

camaronut88z28

Well, I always like the idea of saving money, but time is a bigger factor for me now a days because of family, having a house to maintain, as well as maintaining my families fleet of cars. A couple things that stood out with the newer efi systems like holley or F.A.S.T was that they run off of a wide band instead of an o2 sensor. Also they will do an untimed sequential firing of the injectors using the distributor I currently have. A local tuner guy by me said that this is more ideal then the batch fire. I know my setup is not that extreme, but I just want to get the most out of it as it sits right now and enjoy it. Based on those items do you still feel the ebl is still a better solution? I see Rrob post alot about the ebl stuff, does he sell this stuff?

mr.nitrous

I got this if you can use it. Its all new never used.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

If this guy above me has a complete Accel system for sale, I'd consider buying it. Still one of the better driving systems out there, hands down.

mr.nitrous

I still have it.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Buy a system that is supported and still produced. That one is discontinued. If you have issues I dont know where you can go for support or repair, and or parts.

http://bangshift.com/general-news/msd-buys-accel-wait-theres-mr-gasket-lakewood-quicktime/

If you click the accelnation link in the article it brings you right to the holley site. No matter what anyone tells you Holley is the number one selling system. Ton of resources and web board support. But its your choice.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I'm currently building a 383, similar to the OP, but slightly more tame, due to my choice of keeping the TPI, albeit heavily ported. I actually purchased the EBL, then sold it, and went with Holley. Haven't cranked it yet, but I'm getting close.

First, let me say that while researching the EBL, and then after the initial purchase, Rob and the others here at TGO were fantastic. Always quick responses to questions, lots of searchable info, and just downright superhuman levels of knowledge experience and expertise. Add to that the fact that he took the time to put it all together to fill a niche in the market. To me, THAT is the purest meaning of our hot rodding hobby. ...and of course the cost is about 1/3 of the Holley HP.

That being said, I personally made the choice to go with the Holley due to the simple fact that almost every high performance shop can tune it. I called a few places local to me, all would tune Holley, most would tune FAST, and none would even touch the stock ECM or EBL. That is far and away the biggest factor for me. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm saying as ME personally being the weak link, I can pay for help with the Holley.
...now with all those nice things said about the EBL, Holley is no slouch either, but that's easily researched. The Holley forum is great too. Yesterday in fact, on a Sunday afternoon, Danny, the Admin and main tech guru responded to a question in 18 minutes!

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Danny is a wealth of knowledge. And thats saying it lightly. I dont think Ive ever seen him stumped in that forum, ever.

Vanilla Ice

This is a huge concern. No matter what you get, make sure you can tune it or get it tuned. Never thought about that aspect.

irocman7

I tuned with the Moates Ostrich with factory 165 stuff and Tunerpro for years. It's what I learned on and I think it is pretty easy, although kind of buggy at times using a new laptop. Once you buy the hardware it's all free. Real time instant ecm changes are awesome. There was huge learning curve though, and took a lot of patience and time to get to the point where I knew somewhat what I was doing.

I recently upgraded to the GM 411 LS computer, with HP tuners and CNP. It is very user friendly, but the licenses are kind of a rip off IMHO. Good results, but still a decent learning curve (although much easier than Tunerpro). The shutting your car off, waiting 2 minutes to reflash for every little thing gets a little old though.

I have been working with HP EFI on a buddy's car, and I will say it is by far the nicest to work with. Very simple to set up, and the self tuning is really cool (although you have to still dial it in). This is the one to start with if you don't have much tuning experience or patience to learn. It also has an unbelievable amount of potential for performance add ons such as nitrous/boost controller.

It uses a wideband, and is MPFI. Excellent results for a modified motor right out of the box. You do pay an arm and a leg for it though (not in my budget).

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to start off by saying there is no "one size fits all" for me for the question in the topic title. I'll get back to that in a minute.

I'm going to suggest before you completely give up on the Delco (which has been one of my favorite systems bases for a long time), that there is an improved code that will drop into the '7165, gets rid of the MAF and goes with a MAP sensor for load sensing instead, has better and FAR more stable datalink coms than $32(B) or $6E could ever dream of, has programmable generic inputs and outputs and uses wide band O2 sensor data (not just logging IIRC). It's called $12P and is based on an Australian code for the '808 ECM, which is very similar hardware wise to the '7165. I have tested $12P briefly in one of my cars that I already tuned with '7749 and $59. I didn't have time to get it tuned in when I tested it, but the car drove very well and was impressed by its adaptability. Take a look into it. I know there's information on gearhead-efi.com and the parent site that is an Australian based site that used to be called "delcohacking.com" or something close to that.

Getting back to the original question...

As I already mentioned I really like the Delco ECMs for many conversions I've done, they are simple, easy to tune (SD is anyway, MAF seems a bit more difficult), they are very reliable, and IF you ever do have a failure or any kind any garage can plug into them, or you can find the ECM/PCM at just about any wreckers or parts stores. So on that long trip if there's a failure, parts are easy to come by.

I've done several conversions on engines from stock to quite modified engines that have "non EFI friendly cams". While there are limitations there are ways to over come them most of the time. I have one friend's car that I think we're at the limits of his computer because his VE and spark tables don't go as high as he likes to rev the engine and it makes for tuning a particular spot above this limit difficult, otherwise the car runs and drives great, and has been key in propelling his 4800 lbs Cutlass down the 1320 in 13 seconds.

Getting into the aftermarket stuff...

I really like the Megasquirt line up. I recently swapped a friend's (not so) EZ-EFI car to MS3Pro and the car has never ran as well as it does with the MS3Pro. It starts without the large puff of black that the EZ-EFI always had, it doesn't slobber all over it self like the EZ-EFI did, and it just runs very crisp, even though I don't have the timing set up quite right yet. If you can't tell I REALLY dislike FAST "EZ-EFI"...
I have a few MS2s that I will be using on projects, mostly non daily drivers, though the one (Datsun) I do treat as a daily when it's running. (Haven't driven it since December due to blowing up an engine and not being able to get to work on it due to other projects and waiting for people...).
The DIY Megasquirt series (MS1, 2 non pro 3) do require some soldering skill and schematic reading ability. There will be circuits that need to be assembled or modified to get the most out of the MS. The circuits are generally small and don't usually require a whole lot of knowledge and most common modifications are laid out in the MS manuals and online documentation.
The MS3Pro does not require any soldering or modifications to the internal circuits, but some applications will require external pieces to be added, and is what I recommend for people with little to no soldering or electronics (Re: circuit board soldering) skill or desire. It's a system that is your complete basic ECU and then add to it for what you need or want. On my friend's car that had EZ-EFI we needed no special parts to make it work on his now MPFI 496 Pontiac. We used the MSD dizzy to trigger the MS3Pro ECU directly and then had the MS3Pro trigger the MSD box, to allow for timing control which he never had before.

I also recently swapped another friend's RB20 equipped Datsun 240Z from Power FC to an ECUMasters EMU and this car has also never ran better. This was also a swap from MAF to SD, a much more simple wire harness (I also did the Power FC install about 2 years ago), with more capability overall. He had the Power FC professionally dyno tuned, where the tuner was able to significantly bring the power up from when it fist spun the rollers, but the owner of the car has said that his car has never ran better than it does with the EMU, and so far all we've done is a street tune. It's smoother everywhere, revving, power pulls, idling, etc. He says it feels stringer too.

I played with an AEM a few years ago on a 1JZ Supra, it was ok, but would have taken a while to dial in. The tables were all 2D from what I remember, which made it more time consuming to get smooth VE table transitions.

So in short, I have no absolute favorite, but systems I would use for different reasons.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

The new AEM Infinity is light years ahead of a lot of other systems. 400MIPS processor and a very high O2 sample rate as well. Just plug in a few numbers in the VE and it'll start right up. It doesn't "self learn" but tells you what the VE number should be and where. And you'll be amazed at the lack of transient fueling needed. It's VE based maps calculate transitional fueling as long as the air/fuels are entered as needed at the various load levels. Good stuff.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... systems seem to get very carried away with the amount of control being offered, which to some is beneficial, but to most very unnecessary. I recently helped a local friend install a set of long tubes onto his third gen and welded something I fabricated for him over the axle to connect to his muffler, then came the tuning. The guy loves third gens just as much as everyone here, he understands how tuning works and what we're after, but in the end he just wants to get in and go. Any user friendly system that can control air, fuel and spark accurately to dial the added modifications in is all anyone really needs. I've seen an inline six run 5 seconds in the 1/4 mile, yet everyone still argues which V8 is best. Same thing can be said with tuning systems, they all get the job done, but everyone enjoys debating as to which one is better. Pick one you feel comfortable with, pick one that installs easy and is user friendly, pick one that won't put a empty void in your wallet, and enjoy your damn car, that's what it's all about. Guy down the street from me has a UGR lambo, a real one, tuned with the best money can buy. I seen him lose to a blown carbed V8. In the end, the user him/herself has the final say with how the engine is going to run.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

You're making a lot of assumptions based on what YOU may want or settle for. Different strokes for different folks.

Thanks.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I think what Street Lethal is saying is very similar to what I did when choosing the system that I chose. Before hitting up the forums, I decided what I NEEDED. I know enough to have a pretty good (maybe not expert level), but pretty good idea what I need, and my needs, like most, are modest. Once I realized that almost every system out there could do what I needed, I hit up the forums to see what people thought. Maybe to hear about the little things that people found. The things not in the brochure. The grey areas.

That's not to dismiss the value of all the extra capabilities, but also to make sure you don't get all caught up in all those extras.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I used the stock delco stuff for a lot of years and was successful.

When I started doing my Formula in 2012, I revisited everything and settled on Megasquirt.

For years (and to some people living in caves, still to this day) there was this basic argument that the stock code was written by Gods who were the best that ever could be, and it wasn't possible to ever write better code or build better hardware. These people argued that no company ever could write better software than the stuff written in the 1980s when the Atari 2600 was state of the art. If you are viewing this forum on your TI99A or Commodore 64, you might be one of those people.

Ignoring that absurdity, certain features I needed simply were not available in the Delco stuff or the EBL. I also wanted to be able to get support from more than just this forum if I had a problem. With the MS I get commercial support from Diyautotune where I bought it, and community support from the ms2extra forums.

I had some experience with Fast and Accel so I know what the aftermarket offered, but when I started actually using MS/Tunerstudio I realized what I was missing all these years. (And how absolutely sucky the stock stuff is).

One of the biggest differences between the stock Delco/EBL and the aftermarket stuff is *how* you tune. With the MS and others, your fuel table is live and it shows you which cells you are in so you can edit them directly and see the immediate response of your changes. For guys like me that change stuff often and have to re-dial in my tune, it makes getting the car running, idling, and moving a lot quicker and easier.

Guys used to the delco stuff typically tune by BLM, so they scan/log, compare things in a spread sheet, make tuning changes, rinse and repeat. I think that they are just so used to doing it the "old way" that the don't understand the benefit of how the aftermarket does it.

The other thing I really like is the MS and a lot of aftermarket stuff will work with just about any ignition trigger, output, and injectors. Meaning you can have HEI, CNP, Ford EDIS, 58x, 24x, 36-1, on a i4, v6, v8, LSx - doesn't matter. It will run it. Staged injection, table switching, Flex fuel, nitrous control, launch control, boost control, the list goes on. So guys who have a hot 350 but might want to go LSx in the future don't have to change systems. Guys who have both a Fbody and a Mustang can use the same system + tuning software, and not have to learn different things, etc.

The MS3Pro is even light years away from what I have.

The new Holley stuff is quite nice as well, but a little pricey.


If I had a factory showroom stock thirdgen and I wasn't going to modify anything on it, I'd probably just leave the Delco stuff in place. But for a boosted motor, someone who wants nitrous, launch control, or an LSx swap, life is a lot easier with the aftermarket stuff.

-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

This is EXACTLY how I tune any Delco I'm connected to. Tuner Pro has (and has for many years) a tracing feature that shows you what cell(s) is being currently used. It does take some set-up if the XDF and ADX are not setup right off the bat for this. The old tracing took a bit of intuition, in that TP RT V4 I think it was simply showed 4 yellow cells in around where the maps are being used, TP RT V5 uses a bubble that has much better indication of which cells are being used, even better than Tuner Studio's little dot that I'm getting used to. Basically, both the Delco and the MS can be tuned in the same way in regards to this with teh correct settings. The difference is that Tuner Pro might take a bit more user input for set-up than Tuner Studio that is automatically set-up to do this.

I never got good results trying to tune from BLMs, since they were based on NB O2 sensor readings and only under certain conditions. *shrug*

Yes, this can be helpful for people that want or have a need to make oddball combinations of hardware, but many times it's no more difficult to install specific hardware to use with a specific system, such as the Delco. There have been many engines that are not GM engines but use Delco ECMs to run them. I've done this a couple times myself, with great results.

Yes, great system, recently installed one on a friend's 496 Pontiac, replacing a FAST EZ-EFI system that never ran correctly. He says the car has never ran better and is on a semi-rough street tune, with a small issue where timing is concerned, but that should be taken care of very shortly, which brings me to one of the quirks of MS. It seems there's an issue with the trigger wizard in TS/MS, where it doesn't act like one would expect. I'm not the only one to have observed some issues with it, many posts on the MSExtra forums suggest ignoring using the trigger wizard and just set the initial (base) timing setting using a timing light and some common sense to get it right.

Overall MS is a good system for many people, but it does have some drawbacks, like lack of true LHM. MS3 has an LHM feature, but it still requires the CPU to be active. It's more of a what-default-setting-to-use-when-a-sensor-is-disconnected-or-fails feature than what I would consider LHM. It does have a few nice features in it though, such as an LHM rev limiter and a couple other things that aren't coming to mind right now.

I both agree and disagree with this. The Delco stuff is very capable in all of the scenarios you mention, stock, boosted, LSx, etc. For many people the Delco system will do everything they need. Some people don't need much more than to get in and drive and when the giggle pedal gets put down to feel some extra power over stock, because they won't be racing or doing much more than just cruising around in their car. For some people that like to add lots of features, such as flat shifting, ALS, etc,will be racing and or just like lots of things to tinker with then an aftermarket system may fit better.

The Megasquirt systems are great for certain applications, but they aren't the best fit for all applications. I will be using MS on some of my own projects, and will stick with Delco on other projects. It all comes down to what fits that particular vehicle's usage the best.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is where I disagree. The general consensus was always the stock ECM being able to do it all for you when being programmed to, not that the stock code was the best that there ever was. Think of the stock code in terms of stock fueling, GM gave their engines just enough fueling to operate within its' range of factory horsepower, in turn giving their tuning calibration just enough information needed to control it. Stock code is good for stock engines, stretching the stock code to accommodate more resolution was the problem, but the ECM itself can be programmed and modified to do it all. That is pretty much what the argument was based on for the last two decades, but keeps getting misconstrued...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I said stock Delco/EBL. Not emulator I had an emulator too, the last few years.

I was referring to the whole "make your tune then burn/flash your chip" since everyone says emulation/realtime is not needed.

Dot? What version of Tunerstudio are you using? I had been using the beta version for the past couple years and recently went to 3.0. It highlights the whole area and like traces the "path" when you do throttle movements, which I found very useful because where the map vs RPM goes typically wasn't where I expected it to.

I've heard this about a half dozen times. Honestly, I've never done it the "TS" way as I'm using a GM harness. I just unplug my EST wire and set my initial advance just like I would a delco ECM, and make sure my bias is set properly in the software.

I don't get what is "Wrong" with the trigger wizard though, like in theory it just locks advance and displays it on the screen. There isn't a bug in displaying current commanded advance, and the 'wizard' is only useful if your timing table is crazy and you think it's going to jump around too much at idle to get your advance synchronized.

But if it's a flaw it should be fixed, I agree. Bugs suck.

We used to laugh and call it "push home mode". I've never owned a car that would idle, let alone drive on LHM.. But I'm sure on the millions upon millions of stock vehicles this is quite useful.

This just bit me in the *** this past weekend. When I was unplugging my MAF (simulate a broken wire) my ESC module was causing my MAF ADC channel to go high and I was getting false MAF reading, which caused the ECM to dump a crapload of fuel and die.

I don't own stock in Megasquirt, so I have no problem complaining when something is a dumb design, and that one is dumb. Apparently sensor wires never break.

Well, a '165 or '730 or EBL isn't going to control a LSx. When I'm talking about Delco I'm referring to Thirdgen based ECU's and the EBL add on board.
The 411 stuff is a little nicer, and I'm sure the stuff in the 2016 vehicles is even better.

There is some stuff though that is still problematic. I still see lots of frustrated people trying to deal with idle on big cams, and none of the stock stuff has wideband closed loop with a target AFR table. Pretty much all the aftermarket stuff does. Programmable outputs are very useful too.

Agreed.

Of course. It's great for what I mentioned. Different people have different needs.

The biggest problem with Megasquirt is it's very easy to get frustrated when things are not well documented. Prime example, EAE. Great idea, amazing functionality, but make one mistake and you're stranded on the side of the road.

That and people shouldn't be assembling their own ECU's unless they have electrical engineering degrees. I took this stuff in school too and I still shouldn't be left alone with a soldering iron hahaha.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The stock software is limited by the hardware. There is not enough memory or address size. The ADC's are all 8 bit, which limits your resolution, and the CPU is very slow which limits your loops/sec.

Even after you've hacked all the stupid little restraints like the max pulsewidth bugs in $8d, and all the other things people have discussed over the years you still have hardware limitations.

And sure, that doesn't matter to most people with stock fbody's. But again, what about the guy that wants to do an LSx or CNP ? What about CAN support? Once you've decided you need a certain feature, just move onto something that can do anything you might need it to do. That is my point.


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It depends on how far you want to take the stock ECM. Leaving aside the SFI-6 because it is in no way considered stock, a good example would be the SD2 chip installed into the early '7148 ECM. The features and ability of a simple chip swap into the stock ECM alone, enhanced by other additions of course, and you now have a mini XFI system for a quarter of the price. The kicker is they keep adding to it; CnP, 2 Step, Anti-Lag, E85, they keep adding and adding to it, and I'm sure I am leaving some stuff out. Tuning the VE is pretty cool too, can dial it in rather easily just like the FAST systems...

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

You guys have to take into context the original posters situation. You guys obviously have deep understanding of the stock stuff. Problem is not many new comers do and wish to. They are novice do it your selfers or they just pay someone. In terms of which is best is a hard question to answer. In my situation, mostly novice to begin with I installed two systems one right after another. Im not tech savy, but very good with wiring and schematics. I installed a holley hp. With the help of a helm factory manual and the great install and diagram instructions of the holley it was very easy to be honest. I then installed a fast xfi. Hands down crappiest instructions ever. No clarity on anything. Tech line sucks. And online pdfs suck. It was a chore to install. Efiguy on here sells the systems. That in itself regulates him to help with the install and tuning. He offers it free of charge I assume for buyers. That is a win win hands down. If for example someone bought a holley system from him, with his help and the install guide and great wiring diagrams install would be a breeze. Things I like about the holley. I mounted mine above passenger side kick panel. Fits perfectly there. Wires are perfect length to motor. There is a help option on every section of the install and tune manual. Biggest plus of all its very widely accepted used and tuned around the country. But you go with whats best for you. While you may be able to tune an old ecu, remember the crux is the wiring is as old as the car. Wiring does break down. With a new system, any system, every wire and sensor is new, plus you are getting a wideband, and new state of the art datalogging and ecu design. Like Joe said this isnt the atari days anymore, technology moves forward for the better most of the time and it is more true in regards to tuneable aftermarket ecus in 2016.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I think you've been reading the wrong threads. I see a lot of recommendations for real time emulation, since it makes tuning quick and easy. Also, negating items that get in the way of your argument just means that you have a weak argument to begin with. Saying that the EBL is ok, but an add on emulator is not is kinda contradictory, is it not?



V2.19 I think it was, and now V3. There's a little dot that has both vertical and horizontal lines from that dot. It may highlight cells as well, but the dot is what matters and as fas as I'm concerned, Tuner Pro Bubble is easier to see than the TS dot IMO. I can use both, just have my preferences.

For many people while using the trigger wizard everything works as it should, but then when the change is burned the timing goes exactly back to where it (incorrectly) was. This is a known bug and doesn't seem to be getting fixed any time soon.

Not everyone has the ability to disconnect an bypass connector, especially when using direct coil control which some people with GMs also do to bypass the GM ICM.

I've had some non stock engines run on LHM, mind you not well, but they ran, enough to actually limp home, as the name suggests. I've also had one (my own car) where LHM didn't work because I had the wrong MEMCAL install for the application (cyl select was good, the rest not so much), swapped it for one much closer to my actual application and it ran on LHM. *shrug*

Can't help you there I don't use MAF.

technically, with the right parts an '165 or '7730 could run an LSX, but why would you when the stock PCM will run it better?

Why would you disregard the stock LSx PCM, when it's also a Delco, is it because it then makes your argument weaker again?

Yes, large cams on a Delco CAN be an issue, but it can also be an issue on an MS as well, if the person doing the tuning doesn't know how to compensate for it.

$59, that will drop into a '7730 uses wideband input for fuel control and does a good job of it too. There is also an AFR table that can be used, but I've never used an AFR target table, I tune the VE table and use that. I've used $59 for years. *shrug*

If you want programmable outputs there is some Australian code called $12P that drops into a '165, converts it to MAP, and gives you 4 programmable outputs to do whatever you want with them, with 3D tables to control them as well. IIRC it also uses WBO2 data for fueling control. Datalogging rate is supper high, I can't remember the specifics, but much higher than even what the 8192 baud ECMs can do. I also tested this code briefly as well and it has a lot of potential.

So there's code for stock ECMs that will do more than what the stock code was meant to do, it's just not as easy to find as the aftermarket stuff because it's not advertised the same.

That can happen with any system, well documented or not, some people just don't like to read and expect people to spoon feed them. I have yet to actually need to ask a question on the MSExtra forums (other than clarifications) to actually get an MS system up and going. Granted I seem to understand this type of stuff quite easily, but I've also found many of the things that I didn't understand in the documents and through online searches. *shrug*

I don't think it requires an Engineering degree. Before I went to school for my Electronics Engineering diploma, I was quite proficient at circuit board soldering and enjoy it very much. On the flip side, I know people who have full 3 or 4 year degrees that SHOULD-NEVER-TOUCH-A-SOLDERING-IRON-EVER... I just don't get that, like 25% of the courses REQUIRE proficient soldering skills, how the hell did these people graduate. LOL

It just takes patience and the right equipment. I find that people want to use wood burners and 200W soldering guns to solder their MS mainboard together and that just won't do it. There have been a lot of people that have no prior experience build their own MS and do it well. It depends on the person, not what diplomas or degrees they have hanging on their walls.... speaking of which I still need to hang mine up...

There will always be people that will use OEM EFI (Delco most commonly) on projects and in ways that the OEM was never meant for it to be used and excel at it. MS is a great engine managment computer, but it's not ALWAYS the best fit like you want to believe.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No, in fact the exact people who are anti-emulation are the EBL guys. They all say real-time tuning is not needed. I'm just repeating what the members are saying here. I don't agree with it.

Prom tuning on here is almost dead anyway. Most of the veterans either don't post, or post on other forums. I find myself mostly engaging in tuning tech on yellowbullet or the mustang forums.


Can you link me to this? I'm curious if it's a tunerstudio bug or a bug in Ms3extra.


True. I'm using an ICM, in fact my MS only has logic ignition and wouldn't drive a coil directly. (Unless it was a logic-level coil like an LS2 CNP setup). I've never experienced this problem you mention, but I've heard of people having trigger wizard problems. When you consider the vast number of people running these on various types of vehicles, I'm sure some people have had a problem.


Because it's not the stock ECM for a thirdgen.

Because it's not the stock ECM for a thirdgen. I said stock. I didn't say random ECM pulled from a car a decade newer. I said stock.

Like I said, the 411 is ok and I know a few people have gone quite fast like Justin Orr with his twin turbo camaro. But it still doesn't have some of the functionality that is important to me and others.

I never used $59. I used $58 and $60 prior to Bruce passing away. Code 59 came out after I stopped using the stock derivatives. I'm aware that they have extended some of the functionality and added some cool patches. I have no interest in trying it.

Yeah, I've looked at it over the years. There was an update a few months ago and I looked at it again for fun. It's better with the NVSRAM module, but still not great. If I had no other option it would be usable, but I wouldn't ditch my MS and use it.

Sure. And web browsers and IP stacks exist for the Commodore 64. But would you rally prefer using one over a brand new PC ? I mean, if your argument is that you can get the job done than sure you win. I'd just prefer to not be miserable while getting said job done.

I've actually found a few scenarios where something was either not well documented, or was documented as working a certain way and then reviewing the source showed it worked differently. The other issue is the B&G vs extra code base.

Certain things just are not documented. I recently ran into this when trying out hybrid MAF and MAP. The B&G code supported both voltage and frequency MAFs, and had calibration tools for the flow tables. The extra code only supports voltage MAFs and uses a completely different flow table syntax.

The relationship between fuel load and maf load were not exactly documented.

How the AFR table impacts MAF vs MAP is also not documented. I know how it works now, but it wasn't explained at all in the manual.

So yeah, if you just want to set timing and start working on a VE table it's very straight forward. I simply am playing with more complex things.

I did exceptionally well in school, and I can't solder worth a damn. I'm horrible at it. What I did with the MS-module, which was really not even assembly (other than the IAC circuit) is about my limit. I wouldn't attempt assembling a MS2 board. I'd either overheat a component, have too much solder, have a weak connection, etc. Way too much room for error. Sure, 12 year old girls in china do it every day and do an amazing job at it. But a lot of people can't do it well, and shouldn't.

I didn't say it was the best fit. I said for what I'm doing it was the best fit. I explained what I like about it. I also said the new Holley stuff is quite great.

I even said for a plain stock thirdgen, I'd use a stock ECM with an emulator.

I think some of you guys are getting personally offended because I don't like the stock thirdgen Delco stuff. I don't understand why. It's kinda like when I tell a purist I want to change the rims on my vette and he gives me a look like I kicked his dog.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I thought the 411 was realtime? It's flash based ?

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Rob. The SD2 is $349, and requires the power logger which is $265.

Like, I get that it's cool and why the turbo buick guys would want to go that route rather than something else. But if you are going to spend over $600 on something that isn't native to your car than you might as well go with a full system. (Ms, Holley, etc)

It does look neat, I'll give you that. Looks like a really good EBL. And you don't have to use tunerpro right? I'm just not feeling it on the cost.

-- Joe

alan91z28

i have stayed with GM OEM type for all my 3rd gens from TPI to LS Supercharged. For SBC apps i really like the EBL. For my LS swap i went with GMPP E67 but i am going to standardize in the future on E38. i have toyed with the idea of 411 for SBC but i don't like the physical size of the ECM for mounting, etc

There are many things i like about Holley and the other non OEM. My biggest reason that i have not gone that way is my fear that 10 years from now when a non OEM ECM dies i won't be able to get another one and if i have changed the wiring harness then i am starting back over.

I like tuning and tinkering so i prioritized reliability and long term availability (ie even worse comes to worse and i can't get an EBL i can easily go back to true OEM)... although i have to admit that even i got tired of burning chips so i do like the flash of the EBL

I think like many have said it mainly depends on what You want out of it and what you want to learn vs other priorities

While i very much love driving my 3rd gens, i have to say i also almost equally love building, modding, tuning, etc so i never consider any of my projects done!

Vanilla Ice

There's only 2 reasons to go non OEM and that's HARDWARE limited features that are needed. Your "tuner" ...can't.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Joe, the price really isn't that bad. Members on that website are still paying close to a grand for the older and used FAST systems, and upwards of two grand for new XFI and Holley Dominator systems, so the SD2 option is a pretty good alternative for a stock ECM where the user just needs to swap a chip while making some additions. It's very impressive when considering what a stock ECM can do when going up against the big boys...

irocman7

Nope, flash based, and slow at that. I think Moates had an emulator for the 411 that could be flashed real time but I don't think he makes it anymore.

That was one advantage of the Ostrich/165 set up.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Ill never understand the concept of spending big money on a built motor only to nickle and dime other things. With a bad tune maybe and virtually no one to tune it for you if you cant learn it, why would you chance a big money combo on a stock ecu that is going on 30 years old, plus 30 year old wiring? No one knows this stuff where ever you go in the country on a chassis dyno, no one. They dont bother to learn it or buy the hardware/software to tune it no matter how cheap it may be.Why would they? Because maybe 1 person a decade would need it?I mean,when these topics come up the few and far between come here and defend the stock ecu tuning to the end, and bad mouth spending money on an aftermarket system. This topic should be which "Aftermarket" system you like and why. The stock ecu heroes come in here and spew tons of information hardly no one understands to make there case to use the stock ecu and the topic goes to ****. It happened in another thread.If the new tech is there why not use it?

Vanilla Ice

You could also make the point of how necessary a smart phone is because life didn't work before.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I guess you could. Why even use efi, carb worked fine right?

Vanilla Ice

Sure, but your analogy is an exponential scale difference.

carb is a vcr on an sdtv
Oem sfi is 4k blu Ray on a 1080p tv (when you have a 4ktv at your use)
Aftermarket sfi is 1080p blu Ray on a 4K tv (when you have a 4K blu Ray at your use)

alan91z28

Since you liked the Holley that you installed originally what made you choose Fast for the second?

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Anywayssss. This topic is off the rails. Lol

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I didnt. Holley was my car. Fast was my friends. I installed both of them. He got a good deal on it. I never looked into it and expected same support as holley. Fast has been around a long time. Was under a different name before so I assumed it would be simaler. Im not kidding you. The instruction and install manual is 4 pages. Compare that to the holleys. No diagrams for fast. You have to search online for them. Half the time you couldnt access the pdfs to actually look at them. One diagram they told you to see online didnt even match the aux harness we put in for the fan and pump. Yes we had to buy another harness for the fan and fuel pump. Guess thats an option in running a motor?You have to buy a harness for the knock sensor too. This is all with the fast. For the home do it yourself person holley is leagues above the fast. And harness was shorter too. We had to get imagative to get the wires to the motor from pass compartment. Plenty run holley. Almost all shops tune it. I work alot so $1500 after what I spent on the motor is nothing. I dont have time to learn 30 year old tech. What should I do? Come here and ask opinions and help in doing that old stuff? Even the guys here that say they know the old stuff argue amongst themselves about it. Nope sorry that isnt for me.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Thats your opinion. You use the stock stuff great, good for you. Stick to it, maybe you can tune other cars because its a breed on the edge of extinction, seriously,not many do it or care to. Maybe you can step in and help those who are interested. The second reason? Dont know of or doubt you can name one reputable shop with a chassis dyno who does these years oem chips. About the only good oem stuff is the new stuff.

Vanilla Ice

deleted

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Again, this mentality of anti-emulation is LONG since vanished. Yes we always explain that emulation is a (very good) option, but never say that it's not necessary. It sounds like you're trying to create a conflict where one doesn't exist. *shrug*

Many people (and there's a lot of them) that tune the OEM ECMs will suggest using emulators for real time tuning on this and other sites where OEM tuning is discussed. Maybe 12 or 15 years ago it was the way you describe, but not for at least 8 or 10 years that I can recall anyone claiming that emulation was a waste or was anti-emulation. *shrug*

There's a number of threads on the MSExtra and other forums that I came across when searching about the topic, I don't have any saved links, because I decided to just not use the trigger wizard when I read about so many issues with it. It's not just the MS3, but MS2 as well, maybe even MS1, because I believe it's a TS issue more than an MS issue.

So let me get this straight... someone installs an LSx in their 3rd gen, but because the original ECM, lets say a '7730 won't run the LSx, that the OEM ECM is now junk, and using the OEM LSx PCM is against some rule of yours that makes the swap impossible without going to an aftermarket ECU. Do I have that right?

LSx swaps have been done for years with the OEM LSx PCM without issue, just because YOU don't like it, doesn't make it a good fit for many LSx swappers.

Besides like I said you COULD run an LSx off a '7730, but would take more hardware modifications (adding a dizzy, or using Northstar ignition system to do it. It just makes more sense here to use the OEM LSx PCM. *shrug* Again I think you're trying to make up some conflict or obscure point that is just ridiculous based on some arbitrary rule you have.

The LSx PCM IS a "stock" PCM, just not for a 3rd gen, and for some reason that makes it not acceptable to be used.

When I say tuning stock ECM/PCM, I'm not limiting myself with some random rule that it has to be a stock 3rd gen ECM, like a '7165 or '7730, I mean one that was in a car equipped from the OEM manufacturer as sold under the dash or hood of a car off the showroom floor. No year restrictions, not body style restrictions, hell not even a manufacturer restriction, OEM is OEM, regardless of year make or model.

I could tell you haven't used it by your reply, because your claims are unsubstantiated. I simply pointed out that there is code that will drop into a stock 3rd gen ECM and read and use WBO2 data, along with other improvements.

Works fine with an emulator too, which is how I tested it.
No one is trying to get you to ditch anything, just trying to inform you that what you think of certain systems is not exactly correct and that there are options for people that would rather stick with the OEM (EFI) hardware and not need to re-wire their engine management completely or substantially.

I have never once been "miserable" tuning an PEM ECM on the dozens of DIFFERENT project vehicles I have tuned using Delco ECMs, hell a few have been on engines that were not GM engines. I have a few more coming up that will also be non GM engines and will most likely use a Delco ECM to control them.

If you rely solely on the Megamanual and MSExtra manuals then yeah I can see why people would have issues. While these manuals SHOULD be complete and document everything extremely accurately, somethings can get missed. I have found that the HEI control documentation in both the Megamanual and the MSExtra manuals to be incorrect. The bypass output will actually work backwards if you follow those directions, timing control at start from the ECU, but not after 5 seconds because the 5V output gets inverted due to the way the transistor and pull up are used. I added a 2N3906 (and proper resistors, don't recall off hand what they were right now) to the circuit so that there will be 5V on the bypass line after the 5 second run time. At least this is what I've found on my own car.

I know many people follow DIYAutotune's lead and just wire the 5V bypass line to the 5V ECU output so that the ECU has timing control even during cranking, and in which case, the HEI Bypass documentation being incorrect won't matter.

BINGO!!! The aftermarket stuff is best fit for YOU, but that doesn't mean it's the best fit for EVERYONE. This is also that is trying to be explained to you and a few others in this thread that using aftermerket EFI is not always the best fit for every engine or application.

I even said for a plain stock thirdgen, I'd use a stock ECM with an emulator.

I think some of you guys are getting personally offended because I don't like the stock thirdgen Delco stuff. I don't understand why. It's kinda like when I tell a purist I want to change the rims on my vette and he gives me a look like I kicked his dog. [/QUOTE]

No one is getting personally offended (that I've seen), but when you try to use arbitrary rules and make up stories then people are going to correct you or at the very least try to enlighten you in that there's many ways to run an engine. An OEM ECM is still an EXCELLENT option for many people, while an aftermarket ECU is also an EXCELLENT option for other people. No one is denying that the aftermarket ECUs aren't a good option for many applications, but to say that the OEM ECMs are not for other applications is just plain false.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Exactly. In all the years I've been playing with Delco ECMs, I've had exactly 2 die on me, and both were because of external influences. The first was a '7747 that had the case grounded to the chassis, which is a big no-no with the OBD1 underdash Delco ECMs. This can introduce noise which can be a big problem. I found that aftrewards. Hell that ECM might have still been fine, I pitched it because it tested as bad in the vehicle at the time. The other had water drop into it because it was sitting on my passenger floor in my Datsun (Hadn't built a mount yet) and I was in HEAVY rain, and saw some water drop on it it, then instant LHM, which is how I discovered that the MEMCAL I had wasn't close enough to what I was using to have LHM be effective for long. I don't blame the ECMs on this, they died due to external causes, simple as that.

Now, I haven't had a whole lot of time with the aftermarket ECUs I have. So far I've had one transistor die on me in my MS2, but I think that was due to having a very tired engine that caused it to not want to run on a few cylinders and then back fed the high voltage secondary output done the ESC line. I fixed this just today after replacing the engine a few days ago and then couldn't get the MS to control spark (using small cap HEI dizzy, so base spark was still good and would allow the engine to run, +1 for using HEI. LOL). I'm not going to claim that MS is junk over this though, I simply had a small issue and have corrected it.

I'm still planning on moving to MS on my Datsun when I get the engine back together, because I can get even more experience with it over just having it on my T-Bucket. The Delco system that I pulled out of my Datsun I'll be using in my Jimmy again, only this time with more experience and ability to tune it properly. lol

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I've seen a lot of people change to aftermarket systems simply for this reason, which is sad IMO.

I get that tuners get comfortable with certain hardware, systems and tuning software, but if you can tune with one system you can pretty tune them all. They all have the same basic settings and requirements. Sure some will have odd names or extra settings over others, but adapting to to an unknown system is not that difficult. Case in point a friend of mine just have me install a new system on his RB20 in a Datsun 240Z, one that I hadn't even heard of before he showed it to me. I looked the the specs and some screen shots of the software and told him that it would do the job.
It was an ECUMasters EMU, it has things I both like and dislike about it, bit that doesn't make it "great" or "best", nor does it make it "junk" or "garbage". It's simply different than anything I had used in the past. I did some research on the setup and software before making the harness and then more before I turned the key on and it was a good thing I did, because the ECU was SUPPOSED to have a base map for his RB20 pre-loaded, but it was blank and had to use a map for a slightly different engine as a starting point. Took about 2 hours from the time we turned the key on the first time to having a running revving and returning to idle engine. Part of that was my experience with other systems, part of it was just research pointed me in the right directions.

The same approach can be used with any system OEM or aftermarket, but many people just simply don't want to expand what they can tune by going a bit outside their comfort zone and applying what they know to other systems.

Oh well, their loss. *shrug*

Vanilla Ice

It really is sad hearing the stories of "tuners." Most aren't really capable otherwise they'd know how to do it all as you said. I remember a local guy talking down about LT1s and refusing to tune them because they "aren't tunable." He'd not work on anything that wasn't hptuners supported. Imagine that. Pathetic. I get the idea of not investing in stuff to tune a vehicle type once a decade. But you can also tell the customer that and charge them for the tuning crap. For these old cars it's $200 or so. Then they can proceed to rip them off for $500 to tune it.
I really think some of it is also that they don't want to look like an amateur working with new software, but if they had a brain they'd explain to the customer that they can't possibly know every tune software out there. The customer would understand and if they don't who cares!??!


The bottom line still is: Stick with the hardware you like or need, and what your tuner can/will tune. It's really that simple. For me I can tweak the OEM stuff to my bidding and tune myself. So I choose OEM. Big deal. I don't discount aftermarket. I just have the means to make what I need work very well and for "free."

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

To be fair, RBob himself has told me that he has found no use for realtime emulation, which is why the EBL doesn't do it. (And also why I was turned off by it). When I've brought this up a number of times in the past two years, members have all told me emulation is not necessary and I'm just being "picky".

I chose what I chose because I want to enjoy working on my hot rods. This meant certain features and functionality. When the goal is to get something done as cheap as possible, I can see the merits of a stock '165 or '730 ECM. I just can't understand why anybody would actually choose that over a good aftermarket system of cost wasn't the deciding factor.

I'm respectfully agreeing to disagree with you, but I'm glad you are happy with what you have. That is what is most important, right?


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is a sound business practice. We operate in a similar fashion, just in a different industry. My field techs and engineers are certified only in specific products (Cisco for example). If we bid on supporting or building an infrastructure it includes us ripping out any and all equipment, regardless of age, and replacing it with equipment they are certified in.

There are some "jack of all trades" type guys working out of their garage that are willing to plug away at anything, but we don't take chances like that on multi million dollar contracts.

I don't know what the going rate is for EFI tuning as I don't work in that industry and have never paid for it, but my entry level guys contract out at $250/hr to program routers, firewalls. I'm not talking about the engineers building the security model or designing the network, I'm talking about the guy who reads the project plan and actually configures the devices. So, if tuning the vehicle takes any longer than say a couple of hours of the shops time I'd say $500 is a good deal.. no ?

Life is expensive. I paid a guy $2500 to change the well pump at my lake house. It was $500 in parts and $2000 in labor, and he was there with 2 guys for an hour and 45 minutes. I shopped around and that was a "good price"


-- Joe

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I think this is what is the main factor. The "stock" tuners in every single thread like this come in and write novels of how "cheap" it is. How" easy" it is etc. The posts are a mile long. I think they forget they have there own section on here. All this is well and good. But to hammer someone who is spending money on an aftermarket system because you think it can be done on the"cheap"... Well thats an opinion. Alot of stuff on a thirdgen can be done on the cheap, that post is a 100 miles long.Basically for someone,like the OP, who tried it and is not interested in following through with "stock" tuning. Using an aftermarket system that is easier to tune to begin with and if you do run into a problem most likley there is a shop within 25 miles that can tune it is a plus. I thought this board was about answering the OP question? It turns into chest beating and infighting all the time. He talked to guys at the Holley booth. Hes asking about the Holley after saying he doesnt want to screw with the stock stuff anymore. Did anyone read the first post here?

Vanilla Ice

The OP posted twice and the second time he was showing interest in the EBL.

You need to take a look at yourself a bit in this thread. Cause from where I'm sitting YOURE the one on a rampage.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I dont know where you get rampage from? You sound delusional. Maybe you should get up from where your sitting and move around, blood is pooling in your backside away from the grey matter.With a name like Vanilla Ice your hard to take seriously anyway.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I unsubscribed from this thread awhile back, but I just want to make a point with what you just said. The OP stated "out dated slow @ss setup" in reference to the '7165 ECM. What exactly is so outdated about it? Perhaps the fact that he has problems tuning it, does this make the '7165 inferior, or is it he himself? He is clearly looking for something that has auto tuning so he doesn't have to bother with it, so that right there should clarify why this thread was started. Let us also consider the fact that members such as he as well as others are looking into two thousand dollar systems to control their junkyard builds, meaning the majority of the engines on here are cast rolling assemblies anyway, not to mention SBC's, so where is the logic behind that? I will admit that today's systems have many more features over the old ones, but what does that right there tell you? It should tell you that there are only so many ways to "inject" fuel into an engine as well as controlling timing, and other than resolution, there isn't that much of a difference with those two concepts in terms of newer technology. If people want to have total engine control from an expensive ECU, then logically it would make sense to have it controlling an engine of equal or of more value. But this begs the question, why a third gen? Since when has the third gen been the epitome of ECU and engine finesse? If someone has the money for a two thousand dollar ECU system, then that someone can afford a C6 or C7 Corvette, so why waste your time with a third gen? Everyday I keep reading how the stock ECM's are garbage, and the SBC has since become primitive, well guess what, third gens are three decades old already, so what are the goals of these people for buying third gens in the first place? If people want new, then buy new. If you want to race a third gen, a '7165 will do just fine. If people want to make something old new again, well then that is their choice, but to criticize what they are starting with via their own choice is incoherent at best. So many MAF's to choose from for the '7165, they can even be converted into MAP systems very easily. Callaway did it with the Corvette back in the late 80's when turbo charging them, and if people want to argue the ability of the Sledgehammer Corvette, arguably the fastest factory Corvette ever produced, mind you a Corvette that was designed way before the advent of the new Holley systems not to mention OBD2, then that is a failed argument on their part. When I get in my GTA, I expect two things from it, to be fast, and to feel nostalgic. If I wanted finesse I would have kept my C6 and sold the GTA instead. Anyways the OP is long gone now, and I hope he finds what he is looking for with whatever direction he chooses to go. Stop the arguing guys, it really doesn't benefit the community...