EBL....love it or hate it?
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EBL....love it or hate it?
Hello gang.
Seriously thinking about buying the EBL Flash for my 87 TPI L98 but want opinions from those that have used it. I know there will be a learning curve and I'll be the first to admit that I am a little intimidated. But, I have frequently read that the rewards are well worth the time needed to learn the tuning. So, I'm just looking for honest opinions. Please keep them tasteful and respectful to Rbob. Thanks.
Seriously thinking about buying the EBL Flash for my 87 TPI L98 but want opinions from those that have used it. I know there will be a learning curve and I'll be the first to admit that I am a little intimidated. But, I have frequently read that the rewards are well worth the time needed to learn the tuning. So, I'm just looking for honest opinions. Please keep them tasteful and respectful to Rbob. Thanks.
#2
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
I have the P4 system in my '88 Iroc-Z. VERY happy with it and would do it all over again. Thought about the Flash system but I liked the features that the P4 offered better.
Please note that the depending on the year of your car the P4 might need to have different mount to mount the ECM under the dash.
Dave
Please note that the depending on the year of your car the P4 might need to have different mount to mount the ECM under the dash.
Dave
#3
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
I was fortunate enough to be a Beta tester for RBob's EBL. At the time, I had a modded 84 Xfire Corvette. Frankly the mods would not have worked without installing DynamicEFI's EBL. I think its an absolute bargain and a half.
I now own a 92 modified ZR-1 w the DOHC LT5. Currently using the stock ECM w my own calibration. RBob gets tired of me begging him to do a version of
EBL for that motor.
I now own a 92 modified ZR-1 w the DOHC LT5. Currently using the stock ECM w my own calibration. RBob gets tired of me begging him to do a version of
EBL for that motor.
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
Honestly after owning ebl for 5+years, just the diagnostics it provides is well worth the purchase price. Throw the tuning on top and its one hell of a ECM!~~!~!!~!
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
I have it also and yes the learning curve is a bit to understand. I'm no mastermind with this but if your a person to "ask why" then buy it.
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
Originally Posted by Jimmy2x
Hello gang.
Seriously thinking about buying the EBL Flash for my 87 TPI L98 but want opinions from those that have used it. I know there will be a learning curve and I'll be the first to admit that I am a little intimidated. But, I have frequently read that the rewards are well worth the time needed to learn the tuning. So, I'm just looking for honest opinions. Please keep them tasteful and respectful to Rbob. Thanks.
Seriously thinking about buying the EBL Flash for my 87 TPI L98 but want opinions from those that have used it. I know there will be a learning curve and I'll be the first to admit that I am a little intimidated. But, I have frequently read that the rewards are well worth the time needed to learn the tuning. So, I'm just looking for honest opinions. Please keep them tasteful and respectful to Rbob. Thanks.
- Rob
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#8
Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
No offense, but after tuning these systems for more than 15 years. Why anyone would switch from mass air to speed density is beyond me. The mass air system is far superior and can be tuned just fine.
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
Originally Posted by MrWillys
No offense, but after tuning these systems for more than 15 years. Why anyone would switch from mass air to speed density is beyond me. The mass air system is far superior and can be tuned just fine.
- Rob
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
Thank you everyone for the responses.
I have some items to deal with this winter (Houdini antifreeze issue) before I actually dive into trying to tune but I think the opinions here speak for themselves. I'm thinking maybe I have something to spend my tax return on now!
Time for me to get learnin'
I have some items to deal with this winter (Houdini antifreeze issue) before I actually dive into trying to tune but I think the opinions here speak for themselves. I'm thinking maybe I have something to spend my tax return on now!
Time for me to get learnin'
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
I had the EBL P4 for my last car which was a 90 L98 Trans Am. Had heads, cam, ported intake and exhaust and so really did need a tune. The EBL system has a lot going for it including an easy (if basic) front end to see all the key readouts of the engine and the mentioned ve learn feature. I also purchased a wideband and this integrated into the system easily; factor this in mind with costing (not EBL specific) and also a knock sensor wasn't included when I purchased it.
Rbob is a real asset and his ongoing support really made tuning the car accessible. Though, this does also raise the continuity risk should he one day decide to move on to other things.
With my current car I have a separate scan tool that I bluetooth to my tablet and the moates chip programmer and use TunerPro / Cat for adjusting the tune. This is fine for minor already documented mods and I think everyone (modded or not) should have a scan-tool running to monitor fuelling/ air. Not as expensive but much more limited
I think a factor is the mods you plan to do. I didn't want to get into the whole tuning thing (again) but replacing my injectors necessitated some tuning tweaks and given the required changes were well documented, I went the moates route. Still, wouldn't mind having some ve learn action...
Rbob is a real asset and his ongoing support really made tuning the car accessible. Though, this does also raise the continuity risk should he one day decide to move on to other things.
With my current car I have a separate scan tool that I bluetooth to my tablet and the moates chip programmer and use TunerPro / Cat for adjusting the tune. This is fine for minor already documented mods and I think everyone (modded or not) should have a scan-tool running to monitor fuelling/ air. Not as expensive but much more limited
I think a factor is the mods you plan to do. I didn't want to get into the whole tuning thing (again) but replacing my injectors necessitated some tuning tweaks and given the required changes were well documented, I went the moates route. Still, wouldn't mind having some ve learn action...
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
I played with the cartridge style MAF a little last year and I couldn't get it to work right. Sizing the MAF tube and having an appropriate translation table is a pain in the ***, and even large throttle movements would report minor airflow changes yet cause AFR to nose dive.
Blowerworks has done a good job with modified $6E calibrations for the corvette folks running the cartridge MAF's (ford style). A lot of those guys are running lots of boost too. I couldn't get it to work right though. 2-bar map for me.
Jimmy2x: There is at least 1 EBL flash for sale in the forums right now, pick it up and give it a try.
I'm helping a local kid tune his car right now with one, but I suspect he's going to bail on that very soon so that may be for sale as well.
-- Joe
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
RBob.
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
There is no LSx stuff related to the context of this thread. '85 - '89 TPI and MPFI are MAF. The '90 - '92 TPI and MPFI are speed density. Note that this thread isn't a MAP vs MAF battle. That topic has already been banned on other boards here. I'll do the same if required.
RBob.
RBob.
Carry on.
-- Joe
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
I like gm older maf setups it’s easy for me to tune.
But it seems like the wiring or relays are problematic with age.
Map is such a simple and reliable setup. The ebl comes with some great starter tunes but I wish there was a starter 383 tune. With cid set but easy to figure out for sure.
But it seems like the wiring or relays are problematic with age.
Map is such a simple and reliable setup. The ebl comes with some great starter tunes but I wish there was a starter 383 tune. With cid set but easy to figure out for sure.
#17
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
Brian, the beauty of the EBL-P4 is that you just tell it your engine size. Starting off with say a 427-SBC, or even a 454-BBC, all you would do is go into Tuner Pro under engine size and change the setting from 305 or 350 to 427 or 454. That's all it takes. The parameters are all immediately adjusted for and if the cam characteristics are the same then the VE will be very very close. If say lots of overlap, then you may have to go in and pull some fuel down low, but even then the VE Learn will do that for you. If there is a change in injector size you go right to injector size and change it from 19# or 22# to whatever injector size you're going with. It literally takes seconds. The EBL Flash is a tad different as it comes with an EBL Utility tool to help you find the right data to input into the BPC vs VAC location, but that too takes seconds. It is so easy to use. Here is an example for the EBL Flash; using say a stock L98 bin to start with, but say you have a 383 w/60# injectors, all you would need to do is go into the BPC vs VAC location in the bin and change the data from 190 to 76. Done. You now have a starter 383 bin w/60# injectors. From there you can play with the timing, and other areas to fine tune, but the engine will fire right up. Again though, if overlap comes into play due to bigger cams, then some fuel would need to be pulled at low RPM just to get things going properly...
- Rob
- Rob
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
Brian, the beauty of the EBL-P4 is that you just tell it your engine size. Starting off with say a 427-SBC, or even a 454-BBC, all you would do is go into Tuner Pro under engine size and change the setting from 305 or 350 to 427 or 454. That's all it takes. The parameters are all immediately adjusted for and if the cam characteristics are the same then the VE will be very very close. If say lots of overlap, then you may have to go in and pull some fuel down low, but even then the VE Learn will do that for you. If there is a change in injector size you go right to injector size and change it from 19# or 22# to whatever injector size you're going with. It literally takes seconds. The EBL Flash is a tad different as it comes with an EBL Utility tool to help you find the right data to input into the BPC vs VAC location, but that too takes seconds. It is so easy to use. Here is an example for the EBL Flash; using say a stock L98 bin to start with, but say you have a 383 w/60# injectors, all you would need to do is go into the BPC vs VAC location in the bin and change the data from 190 to 76. Done. You now have a starter 383 bin w/60# injectors. From there you can play with the timing, and other areas to fine tune, but the engine will fire right up. Again though, if overlap comes into play due to bigger cams, then some fuel would need to be pulled at low RPM just to get things going properly...
- Rob
- Rob
The P4 would require him replacing the connectors.
-- Joe
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
Originally Posted by anesthes
The EBL-Flash is just a few pins to swap over, so I think that would be an easier swap for him. And being a stock L98 I'm sure there is a starter bin that's dead on for him.
The P4 would require him replacing the connectors.
-- Joe
The P4 would require him replacing the connectors.
-- Joe
- Rob
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
have the EBL.. not installed yet.. new upgrades..
can it support 615 cid 900+ hp BBC..with the right size injectors. this is a pump gas eng.
nothing crazy...just a big block and good heads...(925hp with 1050 dominator) on the dyno. want to use the EFI on the car now..every thing is set up...fuel tank..pumps..was hoping it would work...as its just a bigger eng and injectors...asking first..
can it support 615 cid 900+ hp BBC..with the right size injectors. this is a pump gas eng.
nothing crazy...just a big block and good heads...(925hp with 1050 dominator) on the dyno. want to use the EFI on the car now..every thing is set up...fuel tank..pumps..was hoping it would work...as its just a bigger eng and injectors...asking first..
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
have the EBL.. not installed yet.. new upgrades..
can it support 615 cid 900+ hp BBC..with the right size injectors. this is a pump gas eng.
nothing crazy...just a big block and good heads...(925hp with 1050 dominator) on the dyno. want to use the EFI on the car now..every thing is set up...fuel tank..pumps..was hoping it would work...as its just a bigger eng and injectors...asking first..
can it support 615 cid 900+ hp BBC..with the right size injectors. this is a pump gas eng.
nothing crazy...just a big block and good heads...(925hp with 1050 dominator) on the dyno. want to use the EFI on the car now..every thing is set up...fuel tank..pumps..was hoping it would work...as its just a bigger eng and injectors...asking first..
The 615" 925hp BBC is a common street engine package, with Brodix 380 heads, 10.9:1 compression, roller cam, etc. But in a Carb application.
The ones I've seen that were EFI were hilborn (8 trottle bodies). I'd prefer a 4bbl TBI unit (8 injector) but I'm not aware of a unit larger than 950 cfm / 600hp. So I guess maybe a single plane intake?
-- Joe
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
hilborn style injection is what they had the most success with... talk about the fast EZ system not a lot of success..loss some hp... the other one they had success with was the Fitech system.. they had success with a single throttle body for that engine combo so I was thinking dual throttle bodies on a short tunnel ram.. the engine makes 10.5 in of vacuum and fitech said their system works all the way down to 4 in of vac.. and they thought that it would be ..of course a good combination... with their 1200 horsepower Capable unit.. which runs $1995 through Summit... and the polished Edelbrock tunnel ram runs about $950 bucks..
otherwise I would try running they're single 2000 CFM throttle body by Kinsler... and I'm guessing 75 to 80 lb an hour injectors...
otherwise I would try running they're single 2000 CFM throttle body by Kinsler... and I'm guessing 75 to 80 lb an hour injectors...
Last edited by articwhiteZ; 12-02-2017 at 02:52 AM.
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
have the EBL.. not installed yet.. new upgrades..
can it support 615 cid 900+ hp BBC..with the right size injectors. this is a pump gas eng.
nothing crazy...just a big block and good heads...(925hp with 1050 dominator) on the dyno. want to use the EFI on the car now..every thing is set up...fuel tank..pumps..was hoping it would work...as its just a bigger eng and injectors...asking first..
can it support 615 cid 900+ hp BBC..with the right size injectors. this is a pump gas eng.
nothing crazy...just a big block and good heads...(925hp with 1050 dominator) on the dyno. want to use the EFI on the car now..every thing is set up...fuel tank..pumps..was hoping it would work...as its just a bigger eng and injectors...asking first..
RBob.
#24
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
wow that opens a new window...that would save $3200..over going with fitech and a intake...
is this a start?
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...114962-37-5mm/
long just in case
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...fi114961-60mm/
if this works then it would be a intake and a 2000cfm TB.. ($1500) total
is this a start?
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...114962-37-5mm/
long just in case
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...fi114961-60mm/
if this works then it would be a intake and a 2000cfm TB.. ($1500) total
Last edited by articwhiteZ; 12-03-2017 at 12:21 AM.
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
hilborn style injection is what they had the most success with... talk about the fast EZ system not a lot of success..loss some hp... the other one they had success with was the Fitech system.. they had success with a single throttle body for that engine combo so I was thinking dual throttle bodies on a short tunnel ram.. the engine makes 10.5 in of vacuum and fitech said their system works all the way down to 4 in of vac.. and they thought that it would be ..of course a good combination... with their 1200 horsepower Capable unit.. which runs $1995 through Summit... and the polished Edelbrock tunnel ram runs about $950 bucks..
otherwise I would try running they're single 2000 CFM throttle body by Kinsler... and I'm guessing 75 to 80 lb an hour injectors...
otherwise I would try running they're single 2000 CFM throttle body by Kinsler... and I'm guessing 75 to 80 lb an hour injectors...
You might consider posting on Guild of EFI tuners. You'll get a lot more rounded feedback, as the members have quite a bit more diverse experience, and a lot of the members are professional shops and race teams.
-- Joe
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
Switched back to Bosch and no issues.
-- Joe
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
wow that opens a new window...that would save $3200..over going with fitech and a intake...
is this a start?
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...114962-37-5mm/
long just in case
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...fi114961-60mm/
if this works then it would be a intake and a 2000cfm TB.. ($1500) total
is this a start?
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...114962-37-5mm/
long just in case
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...fi114961-60mm/
if this works then it would be a intake and a 2000cfm TB.. ($1500) total
RBob.
#29
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
when looking at them..more info showed up....that's why the 2 links..
the eng guys have worked with the fitech stuff before..they like it...the unit I'm looking at is a Dual Quad/TB set up then can support 1200hp..so lots of room.. just want to make sure I can fit the tunnel ram and the 2 tb. under the hood 6 inch cowl.
the eng guys have worked with the fitech stuff before..they like it...the unit I'm looking at is a Dual Quad/TB set up then can support 1200hp..so lots of room.. just want to make sure I can fit the tunnel ram and the 2 tb. under the hood 6 inch cowl.
Last edited by articwhiteZ; 12-03-2017 at 06:54 PM.
#30
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
when looking at them..more info showed up....that's why the 2 links..
the eng guys have worked with the fitech stuff before..they like it...the unit I'm looking at is a Dual Quad/TB set up then can support 1200hp..so lots of room.. just want to make sure I can fit the tunnel ram and the 2 tb. under the hood 6 inch cowl.
the eng guys have worked with the fitech stuff before..they like it...the unit I'm looking at is a Dual Quad/TB set up then can support 1200hp..so lots of room.. just want to make sure I can fit the tunnel ram and the 2 tb. under the hood 6 inch cowl.
I looked into this a little last year for a C3 Corvette I was doing. I wanted to use a Microsquirt and a 4bbl throttle body, but the name brand throttle bodies/rail/injectors were as much money as the whole FITech kit with ECU and everything, so it wasn't really a great idea.
If someone made a chinese 4bbl throttle body with rail, injectors, regulator for short money I'd buy one to play with on my boat.
-- Joe
#31
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Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
the fitech unit I'm looking at for the eng
http://fitechefi.com/products/30064/
http://fitechefi.com/products/30064/
Last edited by articwhiteZ; 12-05-2017 at 03:04 PM.
#32
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
the fitech unit I'm looking at for the eng
http://fitechefi.com/products/30064/
http://fitechefi.com/products/30064/
Unless someone else can chime in with a combination of intake, throttle body, and management system on a similar big inch combo making the same power.
I'm just not a huge fan of the handheld controllers, but in reality hundreds if not thousands of builds are using the FItech products and the owners are very happy, so how could you go wrong?
-- Joe
#33
Re: EBL....love it or hate it?
The LSx stuff is all MAF, while most of the aftermarket is MAP.
I played with the cartridge style MAF a little last year and I couldn't get it to work right. Sizing the MAF tube and having an appropriate translation table is a pain in the ***, and even large throttle movements would report minor airflow changes yet cause AFR to nose dive.
Blowerworks has done a good job with modified $6E calibrations for the corvette folks running the cartridge MAF's (ford style). A lot of those guys are running lots of boost too. I couldn't get it to work right though. 2-bar map for me.
Jimmy2x: There is at least 1 EBL flash for sale in the forums right now, pick it up and give it a try.
I'm helping a local kid tune his car right now with one, but I suspect he's going to bail on that very soon so that may be for sale as well.
-- Joe
I played with the cartridge style MAF a little last year and I couldn't get it to work right. Sizing the MAF tube and having an appropriate translation table is a pain in the ***, and even large throttle movements would report minor airflow changes yet cause AFR to nose dive.
Blowerworks has done a good job with modified $6E calibrations for the corvette folks running the cartridge MAF's (ford style). A lot of those guys are running lots of boost too. I couldn't get it to work right though. 2-bar map for me.
Jimmy2x: There is at least 1 EBL flash for sale in the forums right now, pick it up and give it a try.
I'm helping a local kid tune his car right now with one, but I suspect he's going to bail on that very soon so that may be for sale as well.
-- Joe