Hello gang.

Seriously thinking about buying the EBL Flash for my 87 TPI L98 but want opinions from those that have used it. I know there will be a learning curve and I'll be the first to admit that I am a little intimidated. But, I have frequently read that the rewards are well worth the time needed to learn the tuning. So, I'm just looking for honest opinions. Please keep them tasteful and respectful to Rbob. Thanks.

I have the P4 system in my '88 Iroc-Z. VERY happy with it and would do it all over again. Thought about the Flash system but I liked the features that the P4 offered better.

Please note that the depending on the year of your car the P4 might need to have different mount to mount the ECM under the dash.

Dave

I was fortunate enough to be a Beta tester for RBob's EBL. At the time, I had a modded 84 Xfire Corvette. Frankly the mods would not have worked without installing DynamicEFI's EBL. I think its an absolute bargain and a half.
I now own a 92 modified ZR-1 w the DOHC LT5. Currently using the stock ECM w my own calibration. RBob gets tired of me begging him to do a version of
EBL for that motor.

Honestly after owning ebl for 5+years, just the diagnostics it provides is well worth the purchase price. Throw the tuning on top and its one hell of a ECM!~~!~!!~!

The ebl rocks !
Doing ve learn even when after you drive off datalogs is sweet .
I give it two thumbs up well worth the investment. Great tech support here too.

I have it also and yes the learning curve is a bit to understand. I'm no mastermind with this but if your a person to "ask why" then buy it.

There really is no learning curve per se, especially if you're already familiar with TunerPro. After a week of driving and tuning after the install you'll be kicking yourself that you didn't go with it much sooner, and you'll realize what I mean about no real learning curve. Go with the EBL and you'll never go back to using anything else. Guaranteed.

- Rob

No offense, but after tuning these systems for more than 15 years. Why anyone would switch from mass air to speed density is beyond me. The mass air system is far superior and can be tuned just fine.

The OBD1 MAF itself, its' algorithm not to mention the system's resolution is far superior? Well, I won't get into a debate regarding personal preference, but the EBL system is far superior to the OBD1 MAF system. If one desires to add to the OBD1 MAF system using a better MAF and different code, I'm sure it could be made to work rather well, but now we're talking down time for the vehicle, and it is still nowhere near the EBL system. Not to mention you cannot claim superiority over a system you never even used... whereas I have been around quite a few systems for different vehicles for quite sometime. I dabbled with FAST XFI as well, and I am not impressed. Megasquirt is a joke. Holley is three to four times as expensive. The EBL was designed for the specific vehicle, as was their SFI-6 for the turbo V6 Buick. It was designed to install and go. The EBL can easily incorporate the features of the SFI-6, which is of course sequential, but it would only confuse the buyer who is looking to install and go and enjoy their vehicle. Again, the EBL was deigned for use with the original components, albeit catapulting the system into the 2000's and allowing the user to have full control with full Learn capability... something the original MAF system lacks with its' alleged superiority.

- Rob

Thank you everyone for the responses.

I have some items to deal with this winter (Houdini antifreeze issue) before I actually dive into trying to tune but I think the opinions here speak for themselves. I'm thinking maybe I have something to spend my tax return on now!

Time for me to get learnin'

I had the EBL P4 for my last car which was a 90 L98 Trans Am. Had heads, cam, ported intake and exhaust and so really did need a tune. The EBL system has a lot going for it including an easy (if basic) front end to see all the key readouts of the engine and the mentioned ve learn feature. I also purchased a wideband and this integrated into the system easily; factor this in mind with costing (not EBL specific) and also a knock sensor wasn't included when I purchased it.

Rbob is a real asset and his ongoing support really made tuning the car accessible. Though, this does also raise the continuity risk should he one day decide to move on to other things.

With my current car I have a separate scan tool that I bluetooth to my tablet and the moates chip programmer and use TunerPro / Cat for adjusting the tune. This is fine for minor already documented mods and I think everyone (modded or not) should have a scan-tool running to monitor fuelling/ air. Not as expensive but much more limited

I think a factor is the mods you plan to do. I didn't want to get into the whole tuning thing (again) but replacing my injectors necessitated some tuning tweaks and given the required changes were well documented, I went the moates route. Still, wouldn't mind having some ve learn action...

You may want to ask GM the same thing. As they too went from MAF to MAP (speed density).

RBob.

The LSx stuff is all MAF, while most of the aftermarket is MAP.

I played with the cartridge style MAF a little last year and I couldn't get it to work right. Sizing the MAF tube and having an appropriate translation table is a pain in the ***, and even large throttle movements would report minor airflow changes yet cause AFR to nose dive.

Blowerworks has done a good job with modified $6E calibrations for the corvette folks running the cartridge MAF's (ford style). A lot of those guys are running lots of boost too. I couldn't get it to work right though. 2-bar map for me.

Jimmy2x: There is at least 1 EBL flash for sale in the forums right now, pick it up and give it a try.

I'm helping a local kid tune his car right now with one, but I suspect he's going to bail on that very soon so that may be for sale as well.

-- Joe

There is no LSx stuff related to the context of this thread. '85 - '89 TPI and MPFI are MAF. The '90 - '92 TPI and MPFI are speed density. Note that this thread isn't a MAP vs MAF battle. That topic has already been banned on other boards here. I'll do the same if required.

RBob.

Ahh.. I was confused when you responded to him saying "Ask GM the same thing". I figured you meant in general, not just GM's position in 1990-1992. My bad.

Carry on.

-- Joe

I like gm older maf setups it’s easy for me to tune.
But it seems like the wiring or relays are problematic with age.
Map is such a simple and reliable setup. The ebl comes with some great starter tunes but I wish there was a starter 383 tune. With cid set but easy to figure out for sure.

Brian, the beauty of the EBL-P4 is that you just tell it your engine size. Starting off with say a 427-SBC, or even a 454-BBC, all you would do is go into Tuner Pro under engine size and change the setting from 305 or 350 to 427 or 454. That's all it takes. The parameters are all immediately adjusted for and if the cam characteristics are the same then the VE will be very very close. If say lots of overlap, then you may have to go in and pull some fuel down low, but even then the VE Learn will do that for you. If there is a change in injector size you go right to injector size and change it from 19# or 22# to whatever injector size you're going with. It literally takes seconds. The EBL Flash is a tad different as it comes with an EBL Utility tool to help you find the right data to input into the BPC vs VAC location, but that too takes seconds. It is so easy to use. Here is an example for the EBL Flash; using say a stock L98 bin to start with, but say you have a 383 w/60# injectors, all you would need to do is go into the BPC vs VAC location in the bin and change the data from 190 to 76. Done. You now have a starter 383 bin w/60# injectors. From there you can play with the timing, and other areas to fine tune, but the engine will fire right up. Again though, if overlap comes into play due to bigger cams, then some fuel would need to be pulled at low RPM just to get things going properly...

- Rob

The EBL-Flash is just a few pins to swap over, so I think that would be an easier swap for him. And being a stock L98 I'm sure there is a starter bin that's dead on for him.

The P4 would require him replacing the connectors.

-- Joe

Yes, it would require a rewiring of the harness, as some members seem more directed towards the EBL-P4 even when starting with the '7165 harness. Might be because of the added features, or maybe even the color of the WUD screen. Personal preference I guess, but both work flawlessly. Sadly I got hit with more of life's wonderful little interruptions, so I had to put my build on hold, otherwise I would be able to show the tuning more thoroughly for members wanting the EBL system. Feels good to be turbo charged again though... capped at only 5-psi though for the time being.

- Rob

have the EBL.. not installed yet.. new upgrades..
can it support 615 cid 900+ hp BBC..with the right size injectors. this is a pump gas eng.
nothing crazy...just a big block and good heads...(925hp with 1050 dominator) on the dyno. want to use the EFI on the car now..every thing is set up...fuel tank..pumps..was hoping it would work...as its just a bigger eng and injectors...asking first..

As long as you can get injectors that will take a short enough pulse width to idle properly, yet deliver enough fuel at max RPM.

The 615" 925hp BBC is a common street engine package, with Brodix 380 heads, 10.9:1 compression, roller cam, etc. But in a Carb application.

The ones I've seen that were EFI were hilborn (8 trottle bodies). I'd prefer a 4bbl TBI unit (8 injector) but I'm not aware of a unit larger than 950 cfm / 600hp. So I guess maybe a single plane intake?

-- Joe

hilborn style injection is what they had the most success with... talk about the fast EZ system not a lot of success..loss some hp... the other one they had success with was the Fitech system.. they had success with a single throttle body for that engine combo so I was thinking dual throttle bodies on a short tunnel ram.. the engine makes 10.5 in of vacuum and fitech said their system works all the way down to 4 in of vac.. and they thought that it would be ..of course a good combination... with their 1200 horsepower Capable unit.. which runs $1995 through Summit... and the polished Edelbrock tunnel ram runs about $950 bucks..

otherwise I would try running they're single 2000 CFM throttle body by Kinsler... and I'm guessing 75 to 80 lb an hour injectors...

Yes, easily. Using 60#/hr injectors at 44 psi they will support 912 HP, at .45 BSFC and 85% DC. The Continental (formally Deka) units are a good choice as the injector compensation values are available for them.

RBob.

wow that opens a new window...that would save $3200..over going with fitech and a intake...

is this a start?
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...114962-37-5mm/
long just in case
http://www.siemensdeka.com/product/6...fi114961-60mm/

if this works then it would be a intake and a 2000cfm TB.. ($1500) total

Have not tried the FItech, but a lot of people have had great success with it on the Corvette forums, nastyz28, etc. Not sure about the 900+ hp power levels though.

You might consider posting on Guild of EFI tuners. You'll get a lot more rounded feedback, as the members have quite a bit more diverse experience, and a lot of the members are professional shops and race teams.

-- Joe

Have you had good luck with those? I had some brand new Deka 60's and I could never get them consistent with double fire, with the appropriate compensation values. I ended up giving them to project89 but he stopped posting so I don't know what happened. Maybe they were just defective.

Switched back to Bosch and no issues.

-- Joe

Yes, using them in one of the vehicles.

RBob.

Those are the injectors to use. I've been using the long ones as they are a direct fit (physical size and electrical connector). There is more/better(?) compensation data available for the long units versus the short ones.

RBob.

when looking at them..more info showed up....that's why the 2 links..
the eng guys have worked with the fitech stuff before..they like it...the unit I'm looking at is a Dual Quad/TB set up then can support 1200hp..so lots of room.. just want to make sure I can fit the tunnel ram and the 2 tb. under the hood 6 inch cowl.

So you are gonna run 4 injector throttle bodies?

I looked into this a little last year for a C3 Corvette I was doing. I wanted to use a Microsquirt and a 4bbl throttle body, but the name brand throttle bodies/rail/injectors were as much money as the whole FITech kit with ECU and everything, so it wasn't really a great idea.

If someone made a chinese 4bbl throttle body with rail, injectors, regulator for short money I'd buy one to play with on my boat.

-- Joe

the fitech unit I'm looking at for the eng
http://fitechefi.com/products/30064/

If that solution is tested and "works" for the combo, it's probably your best option.

Unless someone else can chime in with a combination of intake, throttle body, and management system on a similar big inch combo making the same power.

I'm just not a huge fan of the handheld controllers, but in reality hundreds if not thousands of builds are using the FItech products and the owners are very happy, so how could you go wrong?

-- Joe

Why bail?