how hard would it be to tune tbi to run 12 second?
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how hard would it be to tune tbi to run 12 second?
I have a 1992 rs and would like to swap the v6 for a v8.But I am wanting to know if the tbi would be hard to get to turn 12s or if a tpi would be a better way to go.I can get a complete tbi setup for $120.I was thinking a 383 tbi would rock vs a carb.But would the tbi platform be easy to tune to 12s.What about tuning for nitros?
Last edited by kvu; May 4, 2002 at 10:47 PM.
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Re: how hard would it be to tune tbi to run 12 second?
Originally posted by kvu
I have a 1992 rs and would like to swap the v6 for a v8.But I am wanting to know if the tbi would be hard to get to turn 12s or if a tpi would be a better way to go.I can get a complete tbi setup for $120.I was thinking a 383 tbi would rock vs a carb.But would the tbi platform be easy to tune to 12s.What about tuning for nitros?
I have a 1992 rs and would like to swap the v6 for a v8.But I am wanting to know if the tbi would be hard to get to turn 12s or if a tpi would be a better way to go.I can get a complete tbi setup for $120.I was thinking a 383 tbi would rock vs a carb.But would the tbi platform be easy to tune to 12s.What about tuning for nitros?
The oem ecms will only support a 2 Brl TBI. The biggest injectors you can get are 90s, so the limit is 360 HP with a razor sharp tune.
TPI is also going to take alot of $$, to get that fast. The best bang for the buck is a single plane conversion to port injection.
If you want 12s the easy way in a 3rd Gen, then you want to use a 89 TTA, different turbo, injectors, chip, and your there. Thou it would take the sam suspension work as either of the above.
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I have seen many tpi cars go mid to high 12s w/ the stock base.I have a magazine that (under Mike Osucha's advice) got a 350 tpi car running a 12.3 1/4 mile time.It had a aftermarket base,runners and tb. The cam had .483in of lift.Thats not bad for a mailorder cody motorsports chip too.So I guess I will use tpi.I just was thinking of trying something different.But if tbi sucks that bad then I won't waste my time.Besides I know tpi already.Maybe I will go sd for my 92
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Originally posted by kvu
I have seen many tpi cars go mid to high 12s w/ the stock base.I have a magazine that (under Mike Osucha's advice) got a 350 tpi car running a 12.3 1/4 mile time.It had a aftermarket base,runners and tb. The cam had .483in of lift.Thats not bad for a mailorder cody motorsports chip too.So I guess I will use tpi.I just was thinking of trying something different.But if tbi sucks that bad then I won't waste my time.Besides I know tpi already.Maybe I will go sd for my 92
I have seen many tpi cars go mid to high 12s w/ the stock base.I have a magazine that (under Mike Osucha's advice) got a 350 tpi car running a 12.3 1/4 mile time.It had a aftermarket base,runners and tb. The cam had .483in of lift.Thats not bad for a mailorder cody motorsports chip too.So I guess I will use tpi.I just was thinking of trying something different.But if tbi sucks that bad then I won't waste my time.Besides I know tpi already.Maybe I will go sd for my 92
It's not a matter of TBI, sucks. That's just your opinion.
TBIs can be a great system, and a heck of alot cheaper to work on, then TPIs.
Speed costs money,
how fast ya wanna go?.
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Nevermind, this will just get locked if i leave that. I think Grumpy has said exactly what everyone needed to, that 360hp is the hard limit for a 2 bbl TBI. And trying to get to the hard limit of your fuel system is certainly going go take creative tuning as he also pointed out.
Let me just add that to most folks today, spending half your life modding and tuning a car to get beat by a kid in a new Z28 his parent's bought him is kinda pointless. Ergo, there is no point in getting heavy into modding a TBI. Unless you just want to be different (slow)
Let me just add that to most folks today, spending half your life modding and tuning a car to get beat by a kid in a new Z28 his parent's bought him is kinda pointless. Ergo, there is no point in getting heavy into modding a TBI. Unless you just want to be different (slow)
Last edited by Ed Maher; May 7, 2002 at 03:46 PM.
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Grumpy,we're taking about tbi sucking for going 12s.It's a fine fuel delivery system,but your the one that said it would not perform at the level I want.So if we're talking ability to get a car down the drag strip, tbi (360hp max)does in fact suck.I guess my power level would be to beat a Z06 an a Viper. Now Like I said I have seen hoards of tpi cars go 12 seconds.But I was just thinking out of box.I have no experience with tbi performance,er lack of. What about taking a heathy carb setup.Then weld 8 injector bungs,install like a vortec type tb(or any,easy to adapt),fuel rails,electronic dist and a trusy old gm ecm.I did see a site some chum made his own ecm from scratch.It was for like a 2.x turbo ford I think.
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Re: Re: how hard would it be to tune tbi to run 12 second?
Originally posted by Grumpy
Next to impossible without juice.
The oem ecms will only support a 2 Brl TBI. The biggest injectors you can get are 90s, so the limit is 360 HP with a razor sharp tune.
TPI is also going to take alot of $$, to get that fast. The best bang for the buck is a single plane conversion to port injection.
If you want 12s the easy way in a 3rd Gen, then you want to use a 89 TTA, different turbo, injectors, chip, and your there. Thou it would take the sam suspension work as either of the above.
Next to impossible without juice.
The oem ecms will only support a 2 Brl TBI. The biggest injectors you can get are 90s, so the limit is 360 HP with a razor sharp tune.
TPI is also going to take alot of $$, to get that fast. The best bang for the buck is a single plane conversion to port injection.
If you want 12s the easy way in a 3rd Gen, then you want to use a 89 TTA, different turbo, injectors, chip, and your there. Thou it would take the sam suspension work as either of the above.
Anyways, after I run a 13.4 at 104mph with this cam I'm going to a hot cam and larger 85 or 90 injectors. If I can't make ~400hp with the 2 barrel setup then you'll here it from me first...and if I don't make the power I want because of fuel problems I'll lay down the money for a 4 barrel and build the extra injector drivers required to retain the gm_ecm. Anybody else have another cost effective way for a daily driver to be fast and power adders don't count
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Re: Re: Re: how hard would it be to tune tbi to run 12 second?
Originally posted by JPrevost
How do you figure 90# injectors can only handle a max 360hp? I think that's far from accurate unless you're talking about stock fuel pressure. Bump up the pressure and we all know that a little pressure difference in TBI is a HUGE difference in the amount of fuel flow.
Exactly how high do you think you can reliably run TBI injectors? I always heard that they lock up by the time your FP is into the low 20s. For the sake of argument let's say 25psi, vs stock what, 15? That would represent a 30% increase in flow. And we're still talking max.
I think you're being way conservative with that 360hp mark. I'd be more inclined to believe that as a limit if you said rwph or blaimed the air flow instead of the injector size.
lol, now you're arguing a guy who has spent more time working on TBI then you probably will in your life. Exactly what does qualify someone to debate TBI with you since apparently everybody on this site is beneath you, i mean your results speak for themself right?
I'm running stock fuel pressure setting from Holley right now and there is no way in hell I'm running slower than my 102mph pass (new timing adjustments and WOT afr vs rpm). I do think there is a lack of interest in TBI as a performance alternative when compared to the more popular TPI and carb systems. I disagree that TBI is a "slow" difference when the person that I quoted from knows about as much about TBI as I know about his love life.
Right, exactly what don't i know about TBI. Apparently you don't know **** about it either considering that bolt on 305s have run the et/mph you put down. As a matter of fact, i think you are projecting your own ignorance onto me now, you see i've understood things like GM ECMs, sensor and injection systems, fast cars, etc for a while now. The only part i don't understand is how anybody can still think there is potential in TBI when SO MANY BEFORE THEM have failed. And last time i checked, you were among those who couldn't put down the numbers. You have to be careful dissing other people's knowledge and experience when your little willie is hanging in the wind for everybody to see.
Anyways, after I run a 13.4 at 104mph with this cam I'm going to a hot cam and larger 85 or 90 injectors. If I can't make ~400hp with the 2 barrel setup then you'll here it from me first...
Yes, please, get back to us. It would be so nice if people didn't think every thirdgen V8 was dog slow even when modded out the wazoo.
and if I don't make the power I want because of fuel problems I'll lay down the money for a 4 barrel and build the extra injector drivers required to retain the gm_ecm.
That sounds like fun. I wonder how hard it will be to calibrate the ECM to get the right latency and pulsewidth out of your new drivers. I will quit talking cuz i am sure somebody else already figured this all out, but i'm sure it required some real engineering. Good luck with it, i'd rather not need add-on circuits to run my injectors, you know K.I.S.S. You already can't get it tuned right (or TBI just doesn't make power), do you really need another variable to worry about?
Anybody else have another cost effective way for a daily driver to be fast and power adders don't count.
Cost effective? How much money did you spend on that longblock to run with bolt on 305s?
How do you figure 90# injectors can only handle a max 360hp? I think that's far from accurate unless you're talking about stock fuel pressure. Bump up the pressure and we all know that a little pressure difference in TBI is a HUGE difference in the amount of fuel flow.
Exactly how high do you think you can reliably run TBI injectors? I always heard that they lock up by the time your FP is into the low 20s. For the sake of argument let's say 25psi, vs stock what, 15? That would represent a 30% increase in flow. And we're still talking max.
I think you're being way conservative with that 360hp mark. I'd be more inclined to believe that as a limit if you said rwph or blaimed the air flow instead of the injector size.
lol, now you're arguing a guy who has spent more time working on TBI then you probably will in your life. Exactly what does qualify someone to debate TBI with you since apparently everybody on this site is beneath you, i mean your results speak for themself right?
I'm running stock fuel pressure setting from Holley right now and there is no way in hell I'm running slower than my 102mph pass (new timing adjustments and WOT afr vs rpm). I do think there is a lack of interest in TBI as a performance alternative when compared to the more popular TPI and carb systems. I disagree that TBI is a "slow" difference when the person that I quoted from knows about as much about TBI as I know about his love life.
Right, exactly what don't i know about TBI. Apparently you don't know **** about it either considering that bolt on 305s have run the et/mph you put down. As a matter of fact, i think you are projecting your own ignorance onto me now, you see i've understood things like GM ECMs, sensor and injection systems, fast cars, etc for a while now. The only part i don't understand is how anybody can still think there is potential in TBI when SO MANY BEFORE THEM have failed. And last time i checked, you were among those who couldn't put down the numbers. You have to be careful dissing other people's knowledge and experience when your little willie is hanging in the wind for everybody to see.
Anyways, after I run a 13.4 at 104mph with this cam I'm going to a hot cam and larger 85 or 90 injectors. If I can't make ~400hp with the 2 barrel setup then you'll here it from me first...
Yes, please, get back to us. It would be so nice if people didn't think every thirdgen V8 was dog slow even when modded out the wazoo.
and if I don't make the power I want because of fuel problems I'll lay down the money for a 4 barrel and build the extra injector drivers required to retain the gm_ecm.
That sounds like fun. I wonder how hard it will be to calibrate the ECM to get the right latency and pulsewidth out of your new drivers. I will quit talking cuz i am sure somebody else already figured this all out, but i'm sure it required some real engineering. Good luck with it, i'd rather not need add-on circuits to run my injectors, you know K.I.S.S. You already can't get it tuned right (or TBI just doesn't make power), do you really need another variable to worry about?
Anybody else have another cost effective way for a daily driver to be fast and power adders don't count
. Cost effective? How much money did you spend on that longblock to run with bolt on 305s?
You should've just stayed out of the debate. The original poster asked about running 12s, something you are so far from that you have no qualifications to speak to TBI's potential to get there. If anybody is qualified to speak to what TBI can do, i'd listen to grump-dog. And 360hp can get you 12s in a light enough car with the right launch no sweat, but it's not the kind of power that would make the task easy. If you wanted to make a point, maybe you should have said that instead, you would have sounded a lot smarter than coming out with your 'goals' for your poorly tuned combo (or just plain inherently flawed, it must be one or the other)
And rather than have you try to make a witty comeback about my lack of qualifications and why didn't i just stay out, i only deferred to grumpy's VERY KNOWLEDGABLE AND EXPERIENCED opinion on TBI's power limits, and elaborated that 360hp is a joke at the strip these days unless you take pride in getting in the lane with the ricers to get your wins. And you'll notice, the original poster knew exactly what i was talking about, at least he has the sense to not waste his time on something that's been proven to not work in high HP applications. Yes high HP is relative, and thankfully the original poster clarfied his idea of fast as being a 12 second car, thereby slammming the door on respectability for a high 13 second car.
Stop trying to pick fights with people that don't believe in TBI and instead prove us wrong.
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