I finally got the throttle body back on, and now all four injectors are firing (a couple of them used to be intermittent) so the car runs lots better. In fact, using the stock bin file I had, but just changing the BPW and turning off EGR has giving me BLMs between about 126 and 130 for the most part. Using my romulator, I quickly tuned in the choke table today, and now I am working on PE mode.

The tables I am using to tune PE are: PE AFR vs RPM and VE table 2. I tried messing with open loop afr vs map, but it didn't seem to make much difference.

I have a wide band oxygen sensor also.

What I am noticing is that the WB says I am down around 10.3:1 (the lowest it goes) when I stomp on it, and it stays down in the 10s until map starts to drop some (at high RPM) and then it goes up to around 16:1 - 18:1 for a bit (foot still on the pedal, still WOT, running out of available RPMs). It's kind of hard to tell exactly when it happens, but it looks like its around 60-80 map, and probably around 4500-5000 RPM (it's a big block, that's real fast!). At least I think that is what is happening.

Does anyone (Grumpy???) have a good procedure for tuning PE mode using winALDL, RT-Tuner, and a WB O2 sensor?

I would like to try to get my AFR up higher than 10s at WOT, and keep it from going lean as it peaks out in RPM.

Any help greatly appreciated.

By the way, the injector driver board I built drives four injectors just fine.

Thanks,

John.

PS Finally got my car picture in my signature. Sorry about the ugly thing in front of it . . . . .

 

From the sounds of it,

You cal already has alot of AE in it.
That's the intial 10:1 and then dropping to lean. In some cals the AE can last for seconds.

Without seeing your cal., I'm just gonna lick some numbers and run thur things.

Typically your PE TPS enable is like 60%.
Drive around some and see where the MAP value is when slowly acclerating and increasing the TPS. Lots of cars will ride up to like 80 K/Pa at about the time of PE enable.

So you want to get the VE table well dialed in below that figure, whatever it is in your case.
The take and just add the same approximate % that you used in the areas that you would get to, and add that to the higher areas of the table.

Might drop 2-3d timing out of you main spark table just as a dafety measure at this point.

The try adding a little AE. Again, this is just as a safety measure. Again you always want to start rich and with the timing a little late when roughing in a tune.

And this is for those, with WB's where they can really see small changes.
Hopefully now you can start pulling a little fuel at a time out of the high delta TPS and MAP areas.

Now, that you have some feel for working with the AE, after several dozen attempts at trimming a lil fuel out.
Then you can try lower the TPS PE enables.

Personally I like less AE and lower PE enables. 30% TPS PE enable seems to give a nice balance for me. At low TPS values I can granny along with traffic, and then the lower PE without all the AE makes for a smooth, just plant ya back in the seat ride. ie none of the Feel the Secondaries Open Sensation.

 

Grumpy,

Thanks for the input. I am currently running 30% on my PE enable. It was at 50%, but I didn't like the feel of it there.

Should I run with PE enable at 100% for a while, thus staying out of PE mode, to get the VE table better at high MAP?

I think my spark table is probably pretty conservative now since it is from a 7.4L truck prom, but I could be wrong on that.

As I understand it, the higher RPMs in the 747 use the last row of the VE1 table, plus the VE2 table, but is that for PE mode or just for closed loop (or both)?

You are recommending that I work on AE first. I will do that. Is there a way to tell whether I should tweak the AE vs TPS or the AE vs MAP?

 

Both VE tables are used all of the time. They are always added together for the final VE value. That final VE value is used all of the time, in PE, closed loop, open loop, hiway cruise. . .

One thing to remember about AE is that it is not affected by the BPC term. So if you had to change the BPC due to injector/engine size changes, the magnitude of fuel delivered by the AE will not change.

You will need to change the AE tables manually to compensate.

RBob.

 

Rbob,

So, if the bin file was used on a truck with two 85 lb/hr injectors, and I now have four 85 lb/hr injectors, I have twice as much AE as I should have? That would explain a lot.

I'll start backing off on it and see how it works.

 

I missed responding on the VE II Table.
Like RBob mentioned it is an adder.

If and when you get to playing with it, you have to monitor your DC. As RPM goes up typically the VE table entries will need to drop. The relationship of table I to II needs to be watched, you can easily get to running the injectors in an erratic mode. You have enough that, it shouldn't be a problem, but for other tuning in, it's something to bear in mind.

I STRONGLY disagree with disabling PE completely. Setting it up to 60% will allow plenty of tuning room, and you don't have to worry about being WAY TOO LEAN, in case of a fubar.

Cut and paste your timing table, if you want.

 

Here's the timing table. It's kind of lumpy and bumpy. It does get up around 40 at low MAP, but drops down at higher maps.

16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 15.1 15.1 9.8 9.8 4.9 4.9 0.0 0.0
16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 15.1 15.1 9.8 9.8 7.0 7.0 4.9 4.9
16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 15.1 15.1 13.0 12.0 10.9 9.8 9.8 9.8
16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 16.2 15.1 15.1 14.1 13.0 12.0 10.9 10.9 10.9
25.0 25.0 23.9 22.9 22.1 19.0 16.9 15.1 15.1 15.1 15.1 13.0 12.0 12.0 12.0
28.8 28.1 27.1 25.0 22.9 22.1 21.1 19.0 17.9 16.9 14.1 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
33.0 33.0 29.9 28.1 25.0 23.9 23.9 23.9 19.0 17.9 16.2 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1
35.2 33.0 32.0 28.1 28.1 26.0 23.9 23.9 22.1 19.0 16.9 15.1 15.1 15.1 15.1
27.1 25.0 32.0 32.0 28.1 27.1 27.1 26.0 26.0 26.0 22.1 17.9 15.1 15.1 15.1
27.1 26.0 33.0 32.0 29.9 29.9 28.1 23.9 26.0 25.0 17.9 21.1 15.1 15.1 15.1
28.8 28.1 35.2 32.0 29.9 29.9 29.9 27.1 26.0 25.0 22.9 21.1 17.9 16.2 16.2
30.9 28.8 36.9 34.1 29.9 29.9 29.9 25.0 22.9 21.1 20.0 19.0 17.9 16.2 16.2
32.0 29.9 39.0 38.0 36.9 35.9 34.1 30.9 28.8 23.9 22.9 21.1 17.9 16.9 16.9
43.9 41.8 41.8 41.8 40.1 38.0 35.9 33.0 30.9 26.0 22.9 20.0 17.9 17.9 17.9

Since the VE1 table only goes up to 3200 RPM, I understood that the 3200 RPM row was used above 3200RPM. Is that correct?

Any words of advice on when to change AE vs. TPS or when to change AE vs. MAP, or should I just change both at the same time?

What do you mean by DC? Battery voltage, Injector pulse width?

 

DC= duty cycle of the injectors.

 

Thanks. I don't think duty cycle on the injectors will be a big problem since I am running the equivalent of two 170 lb/hr injectors on an engine that in trucks had two 85 lb/hr injectors.

I'll put in the patch that allows me to look at DC and make sure though. I had the patch in before I went back to the current bin I am using, and the DC was fine then, so it should be now.

 

haven't heard of that patch before....mind sharing??? could be useful

 

I guess you call it a patch. You just change the address of what gets put out in the ALDL stream. I had it displaying pulsewidth instead of battery voltage and advance instead of speed using winALDL. It doesn't do the proper conversion, but you can calculate the actual numbers using what is displayed.

I'll try to post it this evening after I get home from work.

 

16 16 16 16 16 16 16 15 15 9 9 6 6 6 6
16 16 16 16 16 16 16 15 15 9 9 9 6 6 6
16 16 16 16 16 16 16 15 15 13 12 10 9 9 9
16 16 19 19 19 16 16 15 15 14 13 12 10 10 10 1200 RPM?
15 22 26 26 26 19 16 15 15 15 15 13 12 12 12
15 20 26 26 26 25 21 19 17 16 14 13 13 13 13
15 20 28 28 28 25 21 19 19 17 16 14 14 14 14
15 20 28 28 28 25 21 19 17 16 16 15 15 15 15
15 20 28 28 28 25 21 19 17 16 16 16 15 15 15
15 20 28 28 28 25 21 19 17 16 16 16 15 15 15
15 20 28 28 28 25 21 19 18 16 16 16 16 16 16
15 20 28 28 28 25 21 19 18 16 16 16 16 16 16
15 20 28 28 28 25 21 19 18 16 16 16 16 16 16
15 20 28 28 28 25 21 19 18 18 18 18 17 17 17

try something closer to this.

You have to monitor DC. When using the VEII you can EASILY slip into a high DC and get the injectors firing erraticly.
BTDT,

Change one AE type at a time, so that you get to where you feel shich one does what and when, they blend so you gotta just play with it until you can see/feel the differences.

 

Could you e-mail me your bin file, I'd like to take a look at the whole picture. Don't post it here, you never know who's watching and wanting to sell it .
What fuel pressure are you running and the such? I'll put money down right now that if you even have stock AE tables that you're running way rich. Like RBob said, the AE in most c3 ecms just adds msec ontime to the DC. The problem with this is obvious. Not only do you have 2 extra injectors (double the flow rate), now you're adding time to BOTH of them. The injector constant means nothing to AE!!! Start richening up the Vol eff tables and decrease the AE to 60-75% of a stock table. This should get you back to more normalized AFRs. I know what you're going through, when I bumped my FP up to 28psi and changed only the injector constant I couldn't understand why it was running so rich with tip in. Low and behold the AE tables were just flushing fuel through my engine like it was running on nitro (4.5:1 afr). Turned down the AE on the TPS and the car is much better, better responce and a lot better milage in the city.

 

lol watch out for the Black Helicopters too

 

Grumpy, JPrevost,

I tried your spark advance table. It feels pretty good. Is this one that you consider to be backed off a bit? Once I get my fuel done, should I add to this one?

Also, I was able to pull out a lot of AE vs TPS and it still runs fine. I may have gone a little too far, I think I will add a little more back in.

I also found out that it is against the law to have a laptop open in the car where the driver can see it. No ticket, thank goodness. I explained what I was doing and that my wide band O2 display was on my laptop, and he said to at least try to do my tuning during daylight. Nice guy actually. I got his attention with a small burnout while pulling onto the highway. I explained that I was tuning, and that it surprised me too.

Dang these cars can be visible at the wrong times!