This is going to sound kinda weird.... but is it possible to get just 1 knock count... from slamming the shifter into the next gear?

I ask this because I was at the track last night, and amung dissapointing times, I got 1 knock count that retarded 1 deg just a few readings before max rpm in the gear (which would indicate when I slapped the shifter up).

It happend almost each time, and once even it just retarded the 1 deg and didn't log the knock.


Just curious.

Grasping at straws as to why my sig runs 13.7@100mph

 

Have you put it on the dyno with a Wideband O2 yet?

Tim

 

A knock sensor detects noise.
Generate the right noise, and you can set it off. Even a bad serpentine belt can do it.

In the grand scheme of things 1d retard isn't a big deal.
How much total timing, and what are the injector's PW/DC?.
Plugs showing, rich, lean, detonation?.

Have you taken the time to baseline the car?. It's an important element.

 

What do you mean by baseline.
I would think the 13.7 @ 100mph is definatly a sign of something wrong. There are MANY tools to pinpoint your problems. Use a wideband o2 is too easy. Look at plugs under different conditions, datalogging should show you what rpm the problem is occuring. Just look at mph in a high gear under heavy load, it'll tell you a lot!
Check all spark plugs to make certain all your cylinders are getting fuel. Then check to make sure your FP isn't dropping. First place to look is fuel delivery, I should know. I've had all of them at one point or another. Bad fuel pumps are the worst, then fuel filter.

 

Baselining a car is starting with a known rich, and conservative timing, tune, And being able to get repeatible results. ie if your trap speeds are all over the place then there is something really wrong. If you have repeatible speeds, then you know how the engine is running at a given state of tune.

The trick is knowing that the calibration is in fact rich, and the timing's down some. And is another time when using an ecm bench is a good thing. You can set your max PWs to a given max, and verify the car is rich. And then lean down to tune. This idea of having to go rich, is really rough on engines, ie spending so much time running lean. But, it means, having enough injector to begin with.

BTW, current pulse widths at idle on my car are .82 msec., and 14.7:1. At .72 the idle was twitchy, but it was also at roughly 16:1.

 

My times were actually quite consistant except the first pass. It was sub freezing out and traction was a bit of a problem. I've never had a sub 2.0 60ft. When I shift into 2nd gear, I spin the tires for a bit. According to my log which I will post in a second engine run time for the spin is about 1.5sec give or take. I logged the first and 2nd run. 13.729@100.86 for the 2nd.

On my 6th run I turned the dist back 3-4deg and ran a 101.11 trap but 13.914 ET.

I took the same setup with the stock '87 350 TPI chip set at 24lb inj.... with high fuel pressure and ran a best of 14.1@97.07. Shortly after that trans died. The recent times are with a Turbo 350 built w/ GM 3H stall (around 2400) Specs for my Cam are:
218/224, Approx .5/.5 lift w/ my 1.6 Roller Tips, 114LSA

 

I know I am rich at idle. Two days before the race I was 118idle, 122-128 Cruise.

Then I added PE to get my 02 readings where they are, and that was the only thing in the chip I changed, and now I'm 108 at idle and 114-118 cruise. ?+!?!

Plugs read perfect at daily driving a week ago. Didn't get a chance to check at the track.

Thanks for help guys!

Log P1

 

Log P2

 

Hopefully I don't get in trouble for this but here is P3

 

And the Last P4 (Log was longer than I thought.)
Just noticed too that it says I wasn't at fully open throttle, but my foot was mashed.... weird?

 

So after my info and my baselining..... no one knows whats up?

 

My monitor's a bit fuzzy, but it looks like your trying to run 38d of timing at WOT?.
If you trying to on pump gas, that's your problem.

Looks like you've got so much timing, that your using fuel to try and smother what would be detonation. Using lots of fuel and timing sometimes distorts the detonation frequency so much that the K/S can't see it properly.

Try taking the timing back to 30d and try again.

You want to run the least amount of timing consistant with best performance. Least for a street car.

 

I did back the timing down via the dist for one run to 34total which offset the whole scale I know, ran 2 tenths slower ET, but my MPH was the 2nd fastest.

I will take out the timing and see what happens tonight in my next chip.

I am running 92octane pump gas with a Cherry Quench. I seldom get any knock.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, please. But are you sure you reduced the timing and didn't increase it? Only reason why I ask is because my results were just like yours, good mph, crappy ET. What was happening was more of "my car has more compression" (from fuel taking up room in chamber) than before. I also got the reverse of crappy mph, good ET, when I had a bad fuel pump and was running lean at higher engine speeds. What was happening when I was lean was a lot of bad things. The timing was extreamely touchy. To the point where depending on the trip, I would have to move the dizzy so as not to detonate from a code 43 (takes me down to no timing). It was amazing that one run I had a 14.6 with a good mph, without doing anything the next run was a 14.1 with the same mph, go figure.
Try decreasing the timing in the eprom and not the dizzy, just set the engines base timing somewhere between 6 and 10 and never touch it again , that's what's so great about tuning EFI, no need to pop the hood.
It sounds just like Grumpy said, too much fuel and too much timing. I got caught in this trap, I think most of us have.
I did notice you're maxing out your MAF. Running on low resolution PE afr tables like ski_ . Oh well, whatever works I guess.

 

I definatly DID retard timing via the dist. My main problem is, that people slap these on and run 13.0 with little tuning, and I've done some tuning to the best I can and I run 13.7? It's confusing the hell out of me. I mean it has enough power to break a rebuilt 700R4.... but not enough to get down the track in a descent time.

According to my engine runtime, on the logging software.... I spun the tires for about a second and a half at the 1-2 shift. Could that be costing me the second I'm lacking? I see people chirp into 2nd, but not actually spin and fishtail like I did.

"""""""""I did notice you're maxing out your MAF. Running on low resolution PE afr tables like ski_ . Oh well, whatever works I guess.""""""""


What do you mean low resolution PE afr Tables?
I just added more PE in the tables to get my o2 readings where they are because when I used to hit 5000rpm, my 02 would drop to nothing. Which is native of the stock ARAP bin.

I don't have a WB or the money for one right now so I am trying to use what I've got. A stock O2. I hear people say you want it around 750, you want it around 800, you want it 900, you want it 1000. I have no idea. I know it's innaccurate but every pass I make the o2 readings are the same, they don't variate. I just need to find a basis for the o2.


Dropped the timing the in the chip to 33 degrees and it almost seems like the car has better manners. When I go say 1/2 throttle and get my load to 170ish that 33degrees makes it alot smoother and not choppy and almost unpredictable. I can't tell if it made me any faster or not but I can still spin the tires on that 1-2 shift just as well if not more so!

Hmm track is closed.... do I fund the New Gtech or a WB02?

 

Ummm, on your 6th run the mph is basically a wash with the 5th run, and the reason you lost ET was due to the worse 60'. If you spun, that explains everything right there. If you didn't then it's a good sign you need the timing off the line to get you moving.

Other than that, if you can reduce timing and run the same mph, stick with the reduced timing. When taking timing out starts to slow you down, put it back to the last good spot and start cutting fuel. And don't rely on 1 run for data for anything. You want to make sure it's repeatable every step along the way. And also don't try to compare a run where you spun bad directly to a run you didn't. I cringe that you were thinking that way in the first place.

 

WB02. It sounds like you go to the track often enough to not have a real reason to get a Gtech.

And lay off of that 1-2 shift! If you're spinning 1.5 seconds after a shift, you're needlessly abusing parts while killing your E.T. at the same time. Get it nice and firm going into second, but try to avoid spinning it so much.

 

Even if you don't go to the track, you don't need a gtech if you have a scan tool. Both moates and datamaster have built in 0-60 calculators, 1/4 mile, etc. And even better, you can also do period measurements. Like 70-90mph times, etc. As long as you know how to keep using the same stretch of road this can work pretty good.

 

I keep hearing about folks that bolt something together and go 12s with no tuning. They seem to be charter members of some secret group, and when you press them for answers, it just ain't as easy as they'd like you to believe. For every one guy that bolts together a car and runs 12s there's hundreds that use about the same combo, and have to work to get the 12.

If your spinning the tires for 1.5sec it's probably costing you 2 secs..

Using a stock O2 for anything other then closed loop is just a waste of time, other then to know your wayyyyyy off.

Radio Shack used to have stop watchs for $20.

When you add enough fuel to run alot of timing, don't forget that your in fact raising the compression ratio, so while you can make more power for a while, you have a two edged sword there.

Tire spin slows a car down.
If your having serious tire spin, then you need to get some more traction.

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell when you spin off the line. I have 33ishdeg there, then it works its way up to 38. At the time of the track I didn't know you could just change timing in a chip and the computer wouldn't have to relearn anything.


Not exactly sure how to lay off the 1-2 shift. My transmission does it for me. I put the shifter into 2nd, it shifts, I fish tail. I suppose I could short shift it, but then I'm not going to be in the higher RPMS I need for the next gear.

Funny thing is, the shift isn't violent.

Guess I need a WB cause it sounds like I'm extremely rich, and seeing as how even moates says I'm 11.7:1AFR.....

Doing a another tune up today.... Cap/rotor/plugs and all get all my chips going with different timing and make 2-3 passes a piece with moates and see which has the better

Thanks for the input guys!

Drag Radials here I come!

 

Sometimes you have to go back to the basics.

Well I replaced the plugs (which looked like they were maybe 1 heat range too high), I replaced the cap and rotor and checked my fuel pressure.

Assuming my gauge is working properly, it said I was at a max PSI of 28.

I thought to myself that was horribly low, maybe the injectors are having some issues firing and atomizing (24lb svo's cleaned/matched). So I put the max PSI to 41.

In the chip, I had to change my injector constant from the 24.75 that I had it, to 33.5 to make my blms ANYTHING but pegged at 108?!

So the whole time I was at the track and such I was at a max psi of 28 and a vac psi of 20. When I got my injectors back from being cleaned and such I did notice I had to turn my FP reg down quite a bit, but I didn't realize I was down to that low a fuel pressure.

What's up, there is no way that I can be THAT rich with only 24lbers? Having to have the computer thing that I have 34lb injectors can't be good either..... I'm not going to hack up my maf tables that bad either?

I'm confused. It's days like this when you just wanna put a carb on top.......

 

Work with some good webers, and try to get things correct, and you'll change your mind. The only thing the US carbs have going for them is that they aren't very adjustable. If you're daring try a Holley with the Weber jetting conversion metering blocks, that'll give ya a work out.

Tuning done right or well takes time.

Having the right tools thou, can help with the learning curve, and time to get it correct.

WB's, G-Techs, are just investments. Like all good tools, they'll depreciate some, but it's not like wasting gas to get close.

 

Dispite the funky BLM vs FP vs Injector Constant.... I did some passes with moates.

No significant changes between 30deg-32-34-36..... All runs varied by 3 tenths

though it felt best with 34. So I guess I'll keep it there and deduct some fuel and see what happens.

Maybe it's just my cam and flat tappet that is limiting me.

Time to save for those Tools.

Thanks for helps!

 

Oh yeah, when I start cutting out some fuel, how do I know when to stop aside from a stopwatch?