With all of the new WB02 products coming out I was curious is WB02 better than EGT or visa versa. It seems that a lot of people are jumping on the WB02 wagon but I've had people at the track swear by the EGT.

I know the difference between the two but is one actually better than the other for tuning?

Thanks

 

Under what conditons?.

If all your worring about is not exceeding the thermal limits of the engine, then EGT is best. If you interested in AFRs at anything other then WOT, the the WB is best.

Each serves it's own purpose.

 

Don't they measure almost the same thing but differently?

ie. EGT measures heat which is a result of running lean and WB02 directly measures the AFR.

An EGT gauge is an alternate way of determining your air/fuel ratio. Unlike air/fuel ratio gauges, which read out the value of the stock oxygen sensor, the EGT gauge measures exhaust gas temperature to determine if your car is running lean or rich. A high temperature implies a too-lean mixture, which can damage your engine.

If your interested in AFRs at anything other then WOT, the the WB is best.

Why is the WB02 not good for WOT? Isn't that the main reason everyone is purchasing the WB02 because the stock narrowband sensors are only good at switching @ 14.7 and the WB02 shows the actual AFR you are running (ie. @ WOT)

I have a fairly modified IROC and have my fuel tables fairly close (w/ 730ecm) but under full throttle I have no idea what AFR I'm running. I was planning on using a WB02 to help achieve a more controlled AFR under wide open throttle as a starting point. Then take it to the track to refine it.

Sorry for all the questions but I haven't been able to find a lot of posts on this and I want make sure I am making the right decision by investing in a WB02. I my though process off?

 

I found this site that explains in more detail.

http://www.widebando2.com/

Based on their comments it sounds like the WB02 is the better choice for tuning including WOT. Your thoughts?

 

EGT is about measuring how close you are to the thermal limits of the engine, only SECONDARILY is AFR INFERRED. It's ONLY about temperature.

Who said a WB isn't good for WOT?. If your drawing that conclusion, from my first post, you mistook what I meant.

If your VE tables are correct, then you PE enrichments should be also, as far as commanded AFR. The WB allows your to truely see where you are, and then thur testing establish what is best for your engine.

Hi EGT can have several causes, fuel being one, and timing the other. You have to experiment to see what the root cause is to cure it. Using a combination of both allows you to get to the best tune faster.

 

The EGT from my experience needs to be reference to piston color? anyway it does on the 2 stroke. i have experience with 2 stroke EGT. if the gauge shows say 1300 deg that is a reference to a real time favorable piston color on wash. when piston is looking primo then that is the degrees you shoot for conditions present that day. if perfection is say 1300 deg and you are running 1375 then you retune you could assume too lean. the pros probably verify the piston condition after a tear down or inspection. the wideband does not require a look at piston (in my opinion) but it cant hurt along with plug color verification.. is thi overly simplistic?

 

EGT peaks at max HP.
Rich or lean of peak HP drops EGT. As both produce less energy, ie EGT.
If there is a timing change it also effects EGT the same way.

The *safe* assumption is that it's lean if EGT drops, so then adding fuel is the sane recourse.

So far plug reading is the only thing that lets you see whats going on inside the chamber. Plug reading is alot more then looking at the color stain.

 

I have allways read my plugs when changing them out. You are talking about something different...Something about running wot then pulling over and checking one or all the plugs for specks of metal or carbon(etc)? Could you explain how this works? I learn things *** backwards. You guys have taught me that plug reading is very important.So I guess it's time to learn how to do it...


What is the ideal egt at idle, part and wot(in general)?

 

speaking of plug color. when i swapped out plugs after getting my first tune in ballpark i noticed that some plugs were pig rich and some decent. this is the issue i have with my XRAM setup. due to convoluted passage way from injector to the intake valve some cylinders run rich some lean. i am convinced i need to lose the plenum and place a heated adapter plate from holley and then add the 670 holley dual TB. godd idea? have any of you out there in Fbody land had any experience with the xram on crossfires and subsequent issues as this? any of you remove the crossfire(TA) and run the holley 670 as alternative?another issue is the lack of atomization that occurs when ambient temps are low. the plenum is very thin and the injector sprays on bottom of plenum. having 90 lb injectors does not help situation.

 

Let's talk torque and SA...I thought that tuning for the highest torque at any given RPM that has the lowest EGT is "ideal." Assume a static AFR and we're tuning SA. The EGT curve plotted against SA would look sort of parabolic, meaning higher EGT with a too-low SA (unburnt fuel burning in exhaust, etc) and also higher EGT with a too-high SA (too much of the burn happening before TDC, results in too-high cylinder pressures/temps, reflected in EGT)? So the sweet spot for the most efficient (thermally efficient) burn was the point of lowest EGT. Is this not correct? Or did I read you wrong?

EDIT: I re-read what I posted and thought about it and perhaps the tune-by-EGT method could be as I said above for SA, but do that at incremental PE AFRs and choose the highest minimum? Then actually look at the temp and choose the AFR where the min is in the "Safe range" maybe...then you'll have an SA and an AFR. I dunno, just thinking out loud. Does anybody know?

 

HP is torque just as a function of RPM.
In a conversation of EGT I fail to see where one term is going to make any real difference, as to the net result of the conversation.

If you want to get to the bottom of EGT, the best areas to research are in the aviation world.

Afterburning, ie having enough fuel to still be *burning* in the exhaust means running really rich.
Retarding the timing, or enriching the AFR drops EGTs, until you get to the point of afterburning.

Lowest EGT consistant with max performance, without exceeding the thermal limits of the engine are what you want.
You can literary have hundreds of combinations of tune to give a specific EGT.

EGT is just one tuning parameter.

And it's also directly effected by MAT.

 

1) no, one measures temp the other AFR, they are only somewhat related.

2) You drawing conclusions improperly. I didn't say the WB wasn't useable for WOT. While an EGT is useful at WOT, it's not of much use, IMO, at conditions other then that. So the WB is more useful for none WOT conditions.

3) If you have all the tables tuned CORRECTLY, then your in the neighborhood. But, neighborhoods can be kinda large. So it's best to run it rich, and then lean it down slowly, and use several degrees less timing.

4) A WB will pay for itself in gas, usually..

 

What about the glowing red exhaust manifold syndrome? Isn't that typically because of too low an SA? And I'd figure that the measured EGTs during this glowing event would be quite high...

 

I was "taught" the opposite. That the key is to get the highest cylinder pressure possible w/o detonation. Higher pressure= higher EGT, in general. That is why Poshe uses ceramic valve seats... I heard that out of the head engineer's mouth.

 

That may be for absolute max power, but I believe it would end up wasting fuel and putting an unnecessary strain on pistons, rings, bottom end, valves, etc. Realistically, on a street engine, I'd think that you could lose 100 degrees or so and still make really good power.

 

Gotta pic of a XRAM?.
It also can be a matter of how the plugs were indexed. With the side electrode away from the intake valve the incoming charge tends to *wash* the plug clean.
While there is little to no HP, in indexing plugs, I did in SBCs to get the plug readings uniform for the above reason.

 

my plugs were messy since we did all mods at once. very rich due to no ecu tuning. i swapped the ECU 7/03 started tuning and pulled plugs then. had 2 months on plugs and found they were somewhat fouled but still hitting on all cylinders. since we were datalogging i started with another set of new ones with ecu swap. www.x-ram.com i am suprised you are not knowledgeable of XRAM? his site explains the application nicely.