crazyd

I have a ZZ430 with RamPort injection, which uses a '92 Speed-Density system, in a non-Fbody car. I've gotten Datamaster running on my laptop and connected it to the 8262 ECM (aka 7730), since WinALDL doesn't support this ECM. I ran a log while I was driving around tonight. The total .uni log file is 1MB but I've zipped it down to 236k. Can anyone here take a look at it and offer some insight on what it's doing?

http://www.eleventenths.org/zz430.zip

I previously posted the specs on the car and photos of it here if you want more info.

TIA,
Dave

Grumpy

**Chip programming for the 262 ECM is by S&P for this setup. All components are as provided by them in the Ram Port kit.**

crazyd

Does anyone else have any helpful suggestions?

91L98Z28

perhaps you could post the log file in a format we can all read. (TXT preferrably?) I can't even read that log file if I wanted to.

with that said, my opinion is that you would be better served by switching to a standard '730 ECM (if the S&P ECM is anything but an off the shelf unmodified '730), and starting with the AXXD bin (305 5spd), and doing your own tune, and just leaving the S&P stuff behind. In the end, you'll be miles ahead because you'll be starting out with a known situation.

I remember the videos of your car posted a few months back on pennocks. sweet car. hope you can get it worked out. I have an 88 western edition coupe, maybe oneday will get a v8 into it too.

crazyd

Thanks for your reply. I don't know why the 8262 was chosen for this setup over the 7730, but I've learned the hard way that changing major components invites problems. Is it possible to use that 305-5spd program with my 8262 ECM? Would it also be better to get a base program for an L98 6-spd from a Y-body, since that would be a good deal closer to my setup?

As far as logfile formats, would it be better if I used Craig Moates' GMECM for logging instead? Can everyone read that better?

Basically I know I'm running way too rich. My long-term fuel correction is going as low as 108 in around-town driving, and I barely get 10mpg out of a 2900lb car. With an 11-gal fuel tank, that doesn't last long.

Thanks,
Dave

91L98Z28

it sounds like you already have pretty major problems. 10mpg out of that car is awful, it should get double that. Does their setup have an o2 sensor? It doesn't sound like it's running closed loop at all. I guess if your BLM's are moving it must be, but wow...hard to believe it's anywhere near 14.7:1 to get 10mpg.

the '730 is an absolutely tried and trued ECM and EVERYONE and their brother knows about it (almost). which means, (one of the) easiest paths to follow (and well known/well documented) is to use '730. As soon as you get "off the beaten path" you are either at the mercy of the vendor (whether it be holley or accel or S&P) or yourself - there will be very little available in the way of shared knowledge, because nobody has the knowledge to share.

once you get the equipment to do your own chips, it doesn't matter that a BIN came from a 305 with TPI and now you have 350 (or 383 or 406) with miniram or superram or whatever. Take a look at all the successful guys on this board running very fast machines with a BIN that "started out as" an AUJP or AXXD or whatever. Traxion is in the 11's now I believe and "started life" as AUJP (350 TPI auto). there are plenty of others. There's me, basically I'm all stock (and slow), but I'm using a 305 5spd that has been set up to run my 350 6spd.

With the S&P setup, you are really starting with a total unknown. Maybe they modified the BIN to run constant open loop. maybe the PE is set grossly rich. maybe it's running in PE all the time. maybe they made mistakes. there is just no way to know.

it would be nice to know if the 8262 is just another part number for a '730 or is really different. if 8262 = 730 exactly, then you can just get a craig moates adapter (or a prominator), pick your favorite '730 $8D BIN, and start tuning.

as for the log formats, i think craig's software would be more universal, yes. anybody know if it can output text? at least it's free so f it's a proprietary format, anyone can download it and read the log.

crazyd

The 8262 can take a 7730 as a direct replacement, I have substituted a 7730 on my car before with the same CALPAK and it ran the same. Autoparts databases list a 7730 as an equivalent to the 8262. I used to know what the difference was in the 8262, I think it's designed to be used in an engine compartment or something.

The setup does have an O2 sensor, it's running off the 1-3-5-7 bank's exhaust only since I have a true-dual. The system does get into closed-loop, and rather quickly even on cold days as the O2 is very close to the manifolds. It is so rough it is almost undrivable in open-loop mode.

It's been difficult to determine what of these aftermarket ECM parts I can use on my setup, and whether it is economical to do so. I'm not like most of you guys; I have an engine that's already got lots of power, I just have an injection system that's programmed all wrong for it. I'm not trying to program it to get more power or better ETs, I'm trying to program it just to run right. I want it to live up to its potential with perfect street manners, good fuel economy and be emissions-passable, and be done with it - and I know it's possible. I don't care anymore how much horsepower it ends up with - after putting up with this abysmal fuel economy, constantly fouled spark plugs and nearly unbearable behavioral problems, I just want it to run right! I'm in too deep with it to give up on it now, though the thought often crosses my my mind. Trying to fix it through the fax machine with S&P has only made it worse, which is why Grumpy's suggestion did little more than kick me when I'm down. I guess their standard programming has enough dissimilarity to my car that the program is way wrong. From an ECM's point of view a Fiero is apparently very different from a street rod.

So, I can give it to the pros to be wideband-tuned on a dyno for $300. I don't plan to be doing lots of tuning and tweaking on it, or modifying the engine any. 400hp in a fully-optioned 2900lb street car is plenty. But if I can do it myself for less than that and learn something in the process, I'd rather go that route. Any advice in that regard would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Dave

91L98Z28

Ok, so you're off to a good start. you have the apparent equivalent of a '730, one of the better understood ECM's out there.

It's ok that the O2 sensor is only on half the engine. many, many applications are like that, including the camaros/firebirds we usually discuss here.

a good tune, is practically unnoticable when it switches from open loop to closed loop.

this is just more info that the calibration you have is off for your combo. it has very little to do with the fact that it's in a fiero... much more to do with the fact that it's just doesn't match. if everything is S&P supplied, then they simply didn't do their homework, or it's a combo they never tuned. as you know, folks put other engine swaps into the fiero all the time (stock L98's, caddy 4.1/4.5/4.9, etc.) and most use the stock computer with their stock engine and it works very well because the tuner (GM) got it that way.

The folks who are going to tune it wideband on a dyno, are they going to just tune WOT and adjust your fuel pressure and distributor, or are they going to actually solve the problem, which is the calibration itself?

you can definately do it yourself for less money, but it's going to take time - none of us here learned to do this overnight, and everyone is still learning (especially me!!). I've even seen grumpy learn a thing or two along the way. DIY PROM is really a hobbyist thing, and even though it is incredibly mature thanks to the efforts of some really dedicated and incredible people, there is still learning going on.

DIY using GM equipment:
Pro's: inexpensive, can be tuned to a very fine degree, tried and trued equipment with built in diagnostics, etc.
Con's: there ain't no instruction manual, most tuner shops have no clue how to do it

aftermarket (holley/accel/etc.
Pro's: has an instruction manual, tuner shops can work with it, may be simpler
Con's: very little grass roots support, you have to rely on the vendor, expensive, often not as capable as factory GM stuff (like a' '730).

with all of that said.... here is how I would approach your car if it was in front of me right now.

(1) throw away S&D chip
(2) locate a '730/$8D manual BIN (AXXD or a 350 6spd vette chip)
(3) correct the injector constant and cylinder size if necessary
(4) burn chip, install in car, get a rough idea of where things are at (I.E. see if the BLM's are stuck at 108 or 150). If they are stuck, then a change to the injector constant is probably in order. otherwise, start tuning in on the VE table to get the tune closer.

if you want to go DIY, this is pretty much the way all of us have done it. the few folks have started with an aftermarket chip, almost always come back to the stock and start over.

By the way, once you learn enough to understand what's going on and how to comfortable make changes, you'll probably be hooked like the rest of us. It's like pringles. once you start, you can't stop. just the other day, there was a thread about the IAC throttle follower (some code in the ECM that opens the IAC in relation to throttle position), and how to adjust the gain and limits on this code. I thought the car drove fine before. With a little tweak here and there, the drivability is even better.

crazyd

Okay. The question of "burning a new chip" is the big one I've been wondering about. Is it better to buy a burner, or should I get one of those EEPROM replacement chips? Can I even do that with my 262's CALPAK? And as far as writing new programs into the chip once it's been erased one way or another, is that done via the ALDL or do I need a separate thingy for that?

I have no desire to go with DFI, I've already spent all this money on this system.

Dave

91L98Z28

This post here by traxion is an excellent explanation of it all:

https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml

There are a lot of ways you can do it. I went the "tried and trued" way - pocket programmer, craig moates adapter (www.moates.net adapter G1 and a few atmel 29c256 chips), tunercat software.

I won't discuss the prominator or autoprom right now (i will pretend they don't exist) because even though they are great tools, they add complexity (which is not what you want when you are trying to figure things out).

No matter what you do, you need a programmer. You really are lightyears ahead to buy a few EEPROM's (25c256's). they last forever and are fast to program and easy to use. no sense in messing with UV erasers and all the stuff that the EPROM's need. The 29c256's are great, you just reprogram them and go, it takes about 15 seconds.

a MEMCAL is half PROM, half "other stuff". the other stuff we don't care about at the moment, it's the PROM we want to replace. craig's adapter sits between the ECM and the MEMCAL, and lets the ECM use the "other stuff" on the MEMCAL but a seperate PROM of your choice (the one you program and insert into the socket on craig's adapter).

the mechanics of it are pretty simple. It sounds complex when written, but once you see it in person, it's pretty easy.

programming is NOT done via ALDL on '730. some newer ECMs can do that (most notably the 8051 in the 4thgen camaros/firebirds/caprices etc.), but not ours.

I still remember clearly when i "took the plunge" and ordered a pocket programmer, the craig moates adapter, tunercat, etc.. it is very difficult to fully imagine and undersatnd how it all works until you see it in person and/or do it once yourself, but the "unease" about it all dissapears after you get all the equipment hooked up and burn a chip or two. having the equipment in hand or at your disposal is really helpful in realizing the whole process.

steve8586iroc

Could the 8262 be the SD ecm used in the Corvette? I bet it's the same as a 730, just in a weather and heat proof case. It's just a guess thought.

Steve

squirrel

I hear ya CrazyD, understand havin a crazy setup and TRYIN to get info to learn, it "ain't" the popular setup, myself have come close to givin up. Good Luck

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The '8262 and the '7730 are the exact same ECM, just a newer number for it ('8262). The under hood 'vette ECM is the 1227727, or '727 for short. The '727 and '730 share the same functionality and can run the same mask, they do have different form factors (case & connectors).

Here are the interchange numbers (from http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis):

1227730
16196344
16198262


1227727
16197128
16198260


RBob.

steve8586iroc

Thanks RBob, I read the post where crazyd wrote that it might be for an application in an engine compartment, so as usual I assumed, it could have been a corvette ecu. With all the knowledge I have, and believe it or not, the chip burning equipment and data logging programs, I can't wait to screw up my tune.

Steve