I am also doing research on different wiring harness Brands.

I am going to be swapping out my 870' ecm for a 165ecm. I don't want to mess with broken wires greese or hack wiring harness so I want to buy new.

I was going to go with a painless Wiring harness but I have heard that they don't include all the wires you need and was wondering what they don't inclued.

Also names of other companys that sell wiring harness

and yes I used the search function and cant get a exact answer on the info i want.

 

I would also like to know the answer to this question. I am thinking about doing the same thing.

 

No Problem

I am going to call Painless Wiring As soon as I get some replys form a few people as to what the harness dosen't have that we need. I have heard a few people say it dosen't contain the wiring to hook up the Check Engine light. Well I downloaded their wiring Instructions for a 1986-1989 TPI and Yes it does. They also Have additional Small Wiring kits that Tap in to their Main harness to use Emmisions like Charcol canister Ect.

Guess We Will Find Out Soon engough.

 

Hi MTPFI-MAF,
I have a Painless installed and it is provided with the SES light.
Don't have the Charcol canister but I made one my self.
Look to: Howell-efi they have complete systems that plug in your car.
http://www.howell-efi.com/wiring_kit...tpi_index.html

Regards,
Cobra289

 

I'm making and selling new TPI harnesses, both MAF and Speed Density. I'm not allowed to advertise here, but if you contact me privately, I might be able to help you out. I'm selling for less than Painless.

I have one of each on ebay right now. Do a search for "TPI Wiring".

{edit: sorry, no ebay links allowed, directly from the top guy}

 

Hey Cobra289 I don't have Charcol Canister and stuff but I have heard the problem With painless Harness is where it Plugs into production vehicle IP harness for power, "check engine" and diagnostic connector functions. Relays, ESC module and power leads, How was yours in regard to these

 

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Well maybe you could shred some light on What Painless Leaves out for me. If you could this would be Great!!!

Thanks for the comparison it helps alot.
Do you have any link to Street & Performance.
[Edit]I think this is it http://www.hotrodlane.cc/onlinecatal...necatalog.html

 

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Here's the problem with putting a TPI harness in any vehicle. It always requires you to splice wires. There is just no way around that. It is very time consuming and not really worth the effort for a manufacturer to provide a plug and play solution...especially at an affordable cost. There are so many variables throughout the years of the f-body, or monte carlo, or S-10, etc.

I've never worked with a Painless harness, but to me I can't see how it is a bad product. Unless it is missing features you need in your vehicle or connectors are just falling off (unlikely), it all comes down to the level of experience of the installer. I think Painless made a mistake claiming that their harnesses are easy enough for anybody to install. When it comes to wiring, there is always something that the beginner will have a difficult time with.

I'm making and selling new harnesses. There's a guy who's already purchased several from me claiming they're great quality and he's not having a hard time installing them. There may be others (I'm not sure) who struggle with installation because they are inexperienced with reading wiring diagrams for their vehicle to properly make the few connections necessary.

With any stand alone wiring harness, connecting battery and ignition power is the most difficult part of the installation. This is because you have to locate the necessary wires in your vehicle. I'm using my harnesses as an example, but I can only assume other manufactures are similar...to someone who has average wiring skills, this should be easy to understand. I'm not trying to sell one of my harnesses here, but I would like to suggest that if you have trouble understanding what's going on with this diagram, then you will have trouble with any stand alone wiring harness installation. To read a description of what's going on in this diagram and others similar, take a look at the installation manual I've put together: http://www.s10wildside.com/manuals/1...eedDensity.htm I hope it helps.

 

Hi MTPFI-MAF,
OK, I don’t know the level of experience from every body but let me tell you my experience with Painless Wiring.
I used Painless Wiring for an 87 TPI engine that is installed in a Cobra replica.
All the emissions items where left, so also not on the Painless Wiring.

Important missing wiring:
Coolant Fan Relay Circuits (Normal and Heavy duty Fans)
Air divert
Charcoal Canister
VSS
VATS (Not required in an 87 TPI)
There is NOT at connector for the IP but just a 12v wire to be connected to any 12v key in (RUN)
Alternator Battery connector. (Logical)

Included are:
There is a yellow SES light included and is tie-wrapped to the ALDL connector.
The ESC wiring is included.
Pump feed wire is included.
TCC wiring is included.
P/N switch wiring is included but be care full and follow the instructions.
Brake switch wiring is included but you should use an original pedal switch or the relay solution of them.

All the wiring is protected via fuses and you should use you own relays and sensors and ESC.
I made my own central aluminum plate to concentrate the relays and ESC (after the dash)
The cable connectors are labeled and color code equal to GM.
I made my self the Charcoal Canister and the VSS connectors using the old cable harness.

Looking to the “e-bay S10W” stuff looks great and very complete. The most important is that will fit in your car connectors. (Don’t forget it use 89 and new relays connectors)
The EGR Temp Switch and Solenoid Circuit are missing. (Not a big deal)

The information provided by Painless Wiring is poor (you can downloaded)

The information of the ”E-bay” stuff is nice although some additions will be improve the recognition, like O2 label, ECM label and what is the thing opposite to the O2 across the ORG cable?

This is my opinion and I hope that will help you making your decision.
Regards,
Cobra289

 

I am very Experienced in Electronics and 12v systems, I was a Electronics tech for Ziebart for about 3 Years after 4 Years of radio shack, before someones says Radio shack huuu They provied excelent training plus the Resistor and small parts customers are The best knowledge.

As for The
Coolant Fan Relay Circuits (Normal and Heavy duty Fans) I am taking fan control away from the ECM

Air divertI have no emmisions equipment on the car
Charcoal CanisterI have no emmisions equipment on the car

VSS[b]I really need This Why wouldn't PAINLESS put it on there is STUPID
VATS (Not required in an 87 TPI)[b]I wont need this I will remove in my .bin[b]
There is NOT at connector for the IP but just a 12v wire to be connected to any 12v key in (RUN)What does IP Stand for
Alternator Battery connector. (Logical)Is this the 2 prong connector that tells the alternator to start charging.

 

IP stands for Instrument Panel. The IP harness is the harness that goes behind the dash (also called the instrument panel).

About VSS on the 1227165...
There is one brown wire on the 1227165 that receives a speed signal. It does not have two wires to send out to the VSS. I suppose you could use a VSS buffer, connect it to the VSS, and let the buffer send the speed signal to the ECM. So for the MAF system, I suppose it makes sense that Painless is not including the VSS connector and circuit. The 85-89 TPI F-Body uses a speedometer cable to spin the speedometer in the cluster. A sensor is right behind the gauge to count pulses and a brown wire goes to the ECM on the 1227165. The 1227730 sends a purple and a yellow wire out to the VSS.

About the alternator...
There is only one wire that tells the alternator to start charging. It's located in terminal f of the alternator plug. It goes through a 20 amp fuse and gets connected to an ignition power source. The S terminal in the alternator connector gets connected to a battery power source, but first through a fusible link.

 

The Alternator.
Have one connector with the 4 prong. (Pins)
P- not used.
L- Volts indicator (if you have a Gauge you don’t need this one) Cable 0.5 BRN
F-To fuse box (FP FAN Fuse 20 AMP) Cable 0.8 BRN (Revision by GM 0.8 BRN/WHT)
S-To + of start solenoid with a fusible link, Cable 3 RED

Separate from this connector is a BAT cable (NUT connection) it goes to the battery, Cable 5 BLK/RED
The 4 prong connector and wiring is provided by Painless Wiring.
Do not connect the Volts Indicator if you have a Volt Gauge. Use an Instrument Cluster 12v to connect the Gauge.

The VSS
Like S10Wildside explain it is by an 85 - 89 located at the back of the gauges. The cable drives the Speedo, these have a two metal plate that reflects like a mirror a LED emitter send a signal and the LED receiver catch the signal 2 times per revolution this information is send to a buffer (yellow box) that is connected to the ECM at the A10 terminal. (See picture this is from an 84 GTA)

I use and other type of sensor because I don’t use the type of Gauges, this one you can connect directly to Speedo cable at the transmission.
See the next thread for pictures of my sensor.
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=234883

I think that “S10Wildside” has good deal and he knows what is doing and I suppose that you will great service and custom advice. That will be impossible to get from Painless Wiring. Remember “He is a Third Gen Person”
Regards,
Cobra289

 

I am Going to a Local Junkyard Sun morning and They only charge $40.00 for ECM's. So If I can find a 165' I think I am going to Hit up S10Wildside to get my harness. S10Wildside, Erie is only about 3 hours form Me, I think we might need to hook up a Chat about some wiring.

 

Cobra289, great info. I'd like to add a few things, hope you don't mind.

The DRAC (otherwise known as VSS Buffer) may be white in some cases. For example, the DRAC for my S-10 is white. GM buys these from a company in New York (can't remember the name of the company for the life of me). They will sell these to individuals and you can cut out the (GM) middle man. I think the cost is something like $55. You just have to supply the gear ratio and tire diameter.

You guys gave me some good ideas for the TPI harness. I do have several new bulkhead connectors for the 3rd gen. I think I'll work on a new TPI harness that's ready to plug into the 3rd gen. The reason I haven't done this is because building wiring harnesses is not my full time job and I can sell stand alone harnesses nearly as fast as I find time to make them. I did, however, find the time to make a TPI harness plug right into the 1st gen S-10.



If you want to see it run, here's the video.

I'll start working on the same thing for the 3rd gen.

 

Don't go to your local yard. Take a look at http://www.car-part.com You can get a 1227165 for less than $30.00 (before shipping).

Feel free to contact me privately. I don't want to get busted on the forum for selling stuff. If the ride is within 3 hours, I might be willing to take a drive out to help you install the harness...if you have everything else ready to go, the harness won't take long to install. No promises, but I might be up for a trip.

 

I used a painless wiring harness on a Jeep CJ5 several years ago and they couldn't even get THAT right...for a 1974 model Jeep. It was all full of mistakes. I can't imagine that they could actually get an EFI harness right.

 

That's the other thing. Throughout the years of any model vehicle, there are slight differences. I found that the S-10 fuse block changed somewhere between 86 and 92. It's frustrating because the connector is the same and all but a few wires stayed the same. What makes this difficult is that you need the factory service manual for every year to be sure it's correct ($$$). There are so many people who are satisfied with stand alone harnesses that there's not much incentive for me (or any other manufacturer) to build model/year specific harnesses. However, I have made exceptions...I'm going to start work on a 88 Camaro harness for a conversion from TBI to TPI. It helps that I have a 88 manual to work with.

 

Hi S10Wildside,
Can you please help me?.
Check my previous thread.
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=234883
See my setup and let me know if the oil leak can be a problem.
I liev in The Netherlands and parts is allmost imposible to get, every thing should be imported.
Regards,
Cobra289

PS
Nice setup at home, be care full with the smoke!

 

Three years ago I helped my brother install a TPI in his 84 SS. He used a painless harness. It had VSS, A/C inputs and factory colored wires. So the above is just not true. It has all of the features of the factory harness. There is a separate emissions harness if you need that stuff.

I won't give the harness rave reviews. It was average in my opinion. There are some features I really don't like such as the 1 ft from the computer MAP sensor. However It did go in just like it was supposed to and worked the first time. Ive heard the anything but painless joke alot but that really doesn't describe my experience.

Normally I wouldn't bother posting on this topic however per your request I looked at other threads about painless. What I saw seemed to be a nice S&P commercial daisy chained over several threads. If I wasn't sure that everyone here was acting ethicly and being straight forward I would think that S&P was skirting the advertisng rules of this site by posing as happy customers. I also might think that new members were really old members with new names. You are singing the exact words of someone elses song.

John

 

I'm not. That little AMC 304 blew up because Painless forgot to include a crucial ignition wire that drops the voltage to the coil from 12V at crank to 10V in run. It blew the valve covers off the engine while a friend of mine was looking at it.

 

Ok Lets Clear up some of these issues:

I called Painless today and spoke to a gentelman who directed me to the online manuall and after his reasurance and reading the manuall i have found out that the painless has the

And their harness also has
exact GM Colors for every sensor
It does have a Check Engine Light & ignition feed Wire
It also has the ALDL, TCC lockup functions, Netural safety switch, and gear shift position wiring for the TCC function with brake switch wiring also.
And yes it has VSS wiring.


Now in their manuall section 4.1 This is what it says

4.1 VEHICLE SPEED SENSOR AND TRANSMISSION LOCKUP FUNCTIONS Before you install the harness, please decide the following things:
a. Are you going to use a 700 R4 Lockup Transmission that you want the computer to control the lockup on?
b. Does the engine have to be emissions legal; i.e. does the EGR
valve and /or air solenoid, and diverter valve need to be
connected?
2. If you answered yes to either or both of these questions then you must:
connect the wires labeled VSS to a vehicle speed sensor that will provide a two (2) or four (4) pulse signal to the computer. On the Throttle Body and Early Model Tuned Port the sensor should output a square wave and on the late model tuned port engines it should provide a sine wave output. Painless Wiring offers the correct speed sensors for use with cable drive (mechanical) transmission outputs.

If you answered no to both of these questions then you may:

choose not to use a vehicle speed sensor, but the vehicle will operate more efficiently with one. If you are going to use a vehicle speed sensor, take the orange/black and black/white wires in the dash section (labeled for the park/neutral indicator switch) and connect them to the Park/Neutral Indicator Switch, which is designed to tell the computer the transmission is in park, as instructed in 6.2.1, Step D and Figure 6.4. Do not connect the wires together.

Important: The orange/black and black/white wires in the dash section that are labeled for the park/neutral indicator switch are to be connected to the park/neutral indicator switch, NOT A NEUTRAL SAFETY SWITCH. Under no circumstances should you connect these wires to a neutral safety switch. (A part/neutral indicator switch is a switch that tells the computer when the vehicle is in park or neutral, but a neutral safety switch is a switch that keeps the vehicle from starting unless it is in park or neutral.) You should never connect the orange/black and black/white wires to the vehicle speed sensor wiring. If you are not going to use a vehicle speed sensor then you will take the orange/black and black/white wires in the dash section (labeled for the park/neutral indicator switch) and connect them together.
4.1.1 If you do NOT wish to use the lockup function, tape off and store the single purple wire, marked brake switch, in the dash group and the 4- position square connector in the tail section. 4.1.2 If you ARE going to use the lockup circuit then you MUST have a vehicle speed sensor (VSS) and the correct brake switch. These are necessary to make the lockup function work correctly. The brake switch should be closed (electrically connected) when the brakes ARE NOT being applied and open (not electrically connected) when the brakes ARE being applied. This is the opposite of a standard brake light switch. The vehicle speed sensor lets the computer know how fast the wheels are turning. 4.1.3 Regardless of whether you use the lockup function, the vehicle speed sensor (VSS) must be used and is needed by the computer so that it can command the emissions control devices on the engine. This part is necessary if you want your vehicle to be street-legal.

3.
4.1.4 There are two different VSS harness applications. All TBI and Early TPI have a single brown wire that attaches to one of the two wires coming out of the 60115 speed sensor and the other wire is connected to ground. The Late TPI has two wires, purple and yellow that goes to and attaches to the 60116 sensor from the computer.

It does not have Wire loom With the Painless harness

So I hope this answers the question for you jfreeman74

Even though this is true I think I am still going to Talk to S10WildSide Before i make any Choices.

 

Blah blah blah. As the sites are different, the problems are the same. I am a recent member, I thought this site was great. You obviosly missed the point, the first two members asked about different harnesses and were getting different suggestions and experiences. I have a painful harness exactly as I described, I will ship it to you for your inspection. Perhaps newer versions are improved and mine is older approx seven years. No I am not an old member. I am a tpi tuner who has built his own 1987 Monte SS speed density harness using a SY/Ty ecm running a Vortech superchager. I found this site since I began burning my own chips & found intelligent, receptive people, the last thing i expected was someone to jump all over a post. I don't like it. Your manner is not kind. I have used all of the products I have named, they all cost some serious money. If my suggestions prevent another tuner from wasting money the same way I did then this post works for the good. Your post was not helpful in the same way. My last .02 in this forum.

 

I would like to thank you for your helpfulness 87tip749 And just wish you hadn't deleted your other posts, I just put this post up to get some oppinions and Maybe beable to help a few DIY make a decision with out wasting your hard earned money. I am not going to buy the painless wiring Harness and probally going to support S10Wildside's harness, after all he is a Thirdgener. Now why Can't anybody on any fourm On TGO have a discussion with out ending in name calling and shading the issue is beyond me.

I know you didn't start it 87tpi7749 but why delete your helpful Posts, the problem on a lot of the boards here is that people won't Unite and hammer out what is right and what isn't at least in a formatable Manner.
We should all work for the greater good. since we are all here For one reason Our LOVE FOR THIRDGEN CAMARO, Just think if the GM engineers couldn't aggree on something and instead of working the problem and figuring it out, they just gave up. We Wouldn't have Our CARS.

 

As embarassingas it is to have to admit, I cannot deny this. It was not my intention to derail this thread or start a crap storm. My post was made in anger at a particular person and without careful consideration. 87tpi7749 if you are not that person then I truely apologize.

Like you said we have the same problems all over. Anybody can say anything or be anybody. Vendors become customers, providing testemonials for theirs products and bashing the competition. The person I thought you were played that game. Again if you are not him I apologize for falsely accusing you.

I believe everyone should operate above the table. Frankly it makes me angry when vendor bash the competition in order to justify their higher prices. Again here I am not accusing you just venting.

Also since I made such a big deal about being above the table I feel I should tell you something about me. I do not work for Painless. I am an aircraft engineer. My paycheck is not linked to the automotive industry. I have no stake here. Just like you I want to help people find the best deal which I will define as paying the least money to get all of the features you want. Sadly my anger side tracked this thread. For this I apologize to all

John

 

Wow, this post got out of hand since I last checked. There's not much more for me to add. MTPFI-MAF, if you're interested in me building you a harness, feel free to contact me and we'll talk about it. I'm sure you have a lot of different concerns. If I can't build what you want, I'll be honest about it. I won't offer to build your harness if I don't think I can do it. But we'll have to talk about it first to see what you have in mind.

 

No Problem S10Wildside We Will Chat.

I just wish this thread had gone better so we could help people make a well informed dicission.