I'm TOTALLY disoriented guys,REALLY NEED YOUR HELP.

I'm relatively new to this...
I've read all the articles several times.
Thought I had it figured out.

Been burning chips through the night. Burning,driving.logging.analyzing.
I'm on the 17th chip with no improvement.

Nothing is working correctly like I've entered the Bermuda Triangle of tuning.

I have a 350 9:1 Compression, Mild street cam..been in there so many years I don't have ANY documentation on it.

Just changed over to TPI.

I CAN'T GET IT TUNED.

It runs GREAT in Open Loop. Nice,smooth just right.
Goes Closed Loop EVERYTIME when the 02 Sensor warms up and after about 2 minutes of driving.

When it goes into Closed Loop, it runs like poopie below 2500 RPMS.
Runs 'fairly' well above 2700 RPM.

Drivability is affected when starting off particulary around 1500 -2000 RPM

I have headers and HAVE MOVED THE 02 SENSOR TO THE COLLECTOR AREA.
Could that be causing this problem?
I'm seeing some AWFULLY SMALL 02 values at the time the drivability issue manifest itself.

I've changed the Fuel Inj. Constant up and down.
I've adjusted Lower and Upper VE Tables up and down.
At this point I'm not sure what I'm doing so I went back to a stock chip which runs REALLY SUCKY in CL.

Please, will someone look at my datalogs and try to help me before I put my carb back on?

I can email them to anyone that will take a look.

 

email me them I can take a look....

 

I would like to look over the datalog and the bin that was used during that datalog. Sounds like the sensor is not warming up enough but can't tell without the logs.
Thanks

 

I've started over so many times I lost count. Probably burned over 400 or so different combinations. It's gets easier each time I start over because of things I learned, (three years).

Start with a stock bin that's for your setup, (auto/manual), AUJP if it's an automatic.

Set things like the VATS, EGR, fan temps, injector size (set it to what it actually calculates to, do not use this for tuning.) Set engine CC, idle settings. DON'T start changing things you don't understand until you get a chip that gets your BLM pretty close, 120-140 or so. (Yes, you can get closer but drivability will start getting normal now.) The INT will be able to correct it from there. As you progress with the VE table, getting it closer each time, you can experiment with timing, AE settings, close/open loop settings

Run VEMaster on it until you start getting close. It will take 6 or 8 trips with varying conditions to get it in the ball park. Smooth out the VE tables by changing only the areas that your scan didn't catch and drive some more.

I know this will work on a mild engine because I've done it with three different cams and three different intake setups. I can usually get good driveablity with two evenings. Then I start screwing it up! I'm not knocking the Pros chips but I straightened out a stoked 305 '91 Camaro with a $400.00 chip in it in a day and a half. Pizza motivates me!

I've ran a heated sensor in the collector and had no problems tuning with it there. I did shorten the time to close loop but it wasn't really necessary if I had the basics down first, (VE tables, inj. constants, desired idle, fan temps). I use a WBO2 now and haven't changed the PROM. I get an average of 14.5-15.00 or so in normal driving. (Still can't get WOT leaned enough but I'm looking at other reasons for that.)

VEMaster will get you pretty close unless you have issues causing the O2 sensor to not be accurate or you've changed things that causes you ECM to run in open loop or only in cell 4. Running in only cell 4 can work but causes headaches when trying to tune the VE tables close.

I'm starting to ramble which is why I don't respond to some of these threads. I tend to forget issues and instead of "some" of these guys expanding on it they jump down your throat. This has worked for me and would work for me if I was tuning your PROM. Just keep reading the threads here and you'll get it. You'll also get several opinions on how to do it but I'm not giving you thier opinions, I'm giving you mine. I know guys who can talk the talk, walk the walk and do both. There are several here. Problem is, I can't talk about it very well but I try once in a while because of what was given to me FREE here.

I experimented with a untouched AUJP when I installed my CC306 camshaft and Holley Stealth Ram intake, 30# injectors in a 383. Just used VEMaster, getting closer and closer each time, and it worked fine. Then I start making other changes and back up when it doesn't work for me.

HTH

 

GTA384:

THANKS!!

Three log files sent.

I can send my BIN file too if you want to look at it.
I'm up to 18 chips now. No joy.

 

SMasterson:

I started with a stock Vette BIN. Removed the VATS and VSS stuff so it would start up.

I'm running the '727' weatherpack version of the 730 ECM.

This is going on 24 hours straight... I just can't get it EVEN IN THE BALLPARK.

IT IS STAYING IN CELL 4 BTW

I can't get it out of cell four. Was wondering if that is caused by having no VSS.

It runs SO good for those couple of minutes before going closed loop.
That makes me think ignition/fuel supply etc are ok.
But I need to keep open and not make up my mind ANYTHING is ok.

PLEASE keep the info coming... I'm REALLY DESPERATE.....

 

Eric305TPI:

I'm going to email you a couple of the logs and the bin that was used for the specific logs.

The logs are named:

truckxx xx = the particular log (I've made 18 of them now)

The bins are named the same. ie for truck12.uni the bin will be truck12.bin.


Sorry guys this isn't a ThirdGen (although I do have a 98 LS1 Maro)

This is on my old 31 year old pickup truck.

Hope ya'll will help me anyway

 

Here's my parameters:


9:1 350
42 LBS Fuel Pressure
22 LB Stock Injectors
NO EGR
NO PCV
NO VATS
NO VSS

727 WeatherPack ECM

BTW: It's STUCK in FUEL TRIM CELL 4
In all my runs it has NEVER once moved out of CELL 4
I've removed power to the ECM numerous times when changing PROMS.

 

Send me your logs as well, I'll look at them. You need to get the VSS working and check to be sure your ECM is grounded at ALL points it's supposed to be or the O2 sensor voltages could be way off and the ECM can't deal with that.

I'm sure there are some who have tuned without VSS but there are so many things that depend on it for driveablity that I would fix it.

Just run it in open loop until you get it fixed. Be careful though, if the VE table is very far off you could end up running to lean/rich.

 

Have you sent the logs yet?

 

Eric305TPI...Just sent about 30 seconds ago.

SMasterson,

There's no VSS sensor on this one. It's an old 350 Turbo with a mechanical speed-o-meter.

The two RPM peaks in throughout the logs are acceleration through 1st gear and 2nd gear.

It's easy to see where it shifted gears. But I AGREE 100% this would be much better with a VSS signal to the ECM.
Sending you the logs and bins in about 1 minute....

THANKS,THANKS,THANKS!!!

 

BTW,
The logs will show the 02 Voltage go form around .700 -.900 DOWN to .01 or .02 VOLTS during the time it won't 'DRIVE' right.

02 voltage just goes away......

Is that a hint??????

 

What editor are you using to edit the files?

 

I'm using TunerCats with the ECM_8D Definition File.

 

Hey Guys,I think I sent you both BAD log files.

Those were before I got the 02 Bung Welded in.

I will send you some ones WITH the 02 working......standby for mail....

 

VetNutJim, here is a link (from a sticky above) that has tuning info including stuck in cell 4:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=200256

See the '730 ECM stuff.

If the O2 is in/past a header collector then it'll have to be a heated unit.

RBob.

 

RBoB, Thanks you. I read all of those but it's not in my TDF.....


I think Eric NAILED IT, though.

Here's an email I just sent to him:

ERIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This one makes it RUN LIKE A CHEV-RO-LAY !!!!!

WOOHOO,WOOHOO..... I'm SOOOOOOO HAPPY!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!

I'm sending my log file. Would you look at it and see if there's anything MAJOR I need to address while I figure out the VE Tables?

THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!
In 2 more hours I'll have 24 straight hours on this and I just COULD NOT fix it.
THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!THANK YOU!!

Was that something to do with disabling the CHARCOAL CANNISTER PURGE commands?

 

Is there a way I can get the CCP info in my TDF now?

I'm sure I can't get an update form TunerCat until tommorow.

I'm sleepy and tired but the adrenalin of learning something new is keep'n me going. (I started SERIOUSLY trying to get this right yesterday afternoon about 5:00pm after work)

WOW, you guys are the G-R-E-A-T-E-S-T....

ERIC: I owe you!!!!!! You ARE the MAN!!!!!!

Can you guys elaborate on what causes this just a little, again?

 

In the factory config the ecm will not energize the CCP solenoid until the ecm gets a speed signal and TPS/MAP over a certain enable amount. It won't change trim cells(stays in 4) until the CCP is at 23%(AUJP) duty cycle.

That was the crash course. As mentioned go here https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=200256 under the 730 section for full details.

 

The CCP stuff that you need to be concerned with has been in TCats TDF for at least a couple of years. Some things have been added lately but that's why I told you to start over with a fresh binary file and get the VE tables close. Then, start messing with the other stuff. When you get it running better then disable the CCP with the newer stuff in TC and retune the VE again.

You should still be able to tune the idle and light cruise pretty well with VEMaster, even though I believe the VSS is going to keep you in cell 4. Or you can use the Histogram function of Datamaster.

You running aftermarket pulleys? The voltage varying that much is going to make tuning difficult! 12.9-14.1 is a pretty far spread.
That's can be tuned to work better too but you've got to get the basic down first.

From looking at your logs you're pretty far off but you already know that!

 

Eric305TPI , SMasterson

The BIN Eric was GOOD. Close enough and works well so I can go forth form there.
Thanks to you guys it's getting better.
After 18 chips and not getting closer I knew I was in BIG trouble.

I had run the Injector Constant all the way up to 35 lbs and still had 108 BLM's.
When that didn't work I mangled up the VE tables.
STILL had 108 BLMS.
Trim Cell 4 only.
02 Voltage would intermittently go to almost nothing.
S-Terms looked like they were trying desperately to lean the mixture.
After several hours straight I had no confidence left that I knew ANYTHING. Head just wouldn't work.
I read the Fuel Trim Cell 4 stuff but couldn't figure out if it was the REAL cause of my troubles or not.

Most of the time tenaciousness will fix most anything. NOT THIS TIME.

I'm going to jump over and check my 8D TDF version....
I have Version AC I guess it must be pretty old.

I just emailed TC for the updated TDF with the CCP parms.in it.

You guys are just GREAT to help out someone like you have me.
Gives me faith in my fellow man.

THANKS!!!!

SMasterson
I believe my alternator will have to be changed to stabilize the buss voltage.
It's an original 1973 type, low current one. They never planned to be running a Fuel Pump, 8 injectors and an ECM off it.
I didn't think it would be able to keep up with the demand.
It'll go over in the pile of other parts I took off a couple weeks ago including my 31 year old Q-Jet..

Thanks again to you guys and this forum!!!!!!!!

 

Try setting the C/L temp enable to say 240dF.
And try tuning some.

Have you recently done any engine work..........

May have silicone poinsioned the O2 sensor.

Try just open loop and see how it is. If it's, almost OK, drive like a 100 or so miles with it in open loop and then put a another O2 sensor in it and try again.

 

Hi Grumpy,

It evidently was the Charcoal Cannister Purge trap I fell in.
(since I don't have one)

Eric305TPI sent me a bin with that disabled and everything returned to normal.

Only engine work was taking the old carb. manifold and stuff off and replacing it all with the TPI system.
I've run that old Q-Jet for 31 years. Now it's retired. Yea,Yea,Yea.

I used the RTV that said "sensor safe'. But this was just an old 02 Sensor I had around the shop for quite a while.
Anyway it seems to be working now.
Not stuck in Fuel Trim Cell 4 any longer.
02 Voltages and Cross Counts working good.

I just figured out this is SUNDAY!! I STARTED this FRIDAY afternoon.
TIme sure flys when you're having fun.
Only thing was, after 18 chips straight it wasn't fun at all anymore.

Haven't done any plug cuts yet. It was running so ragged in CL there wasn't any need to pull any of them.

Thanks for the input, Grumpy.

Thanks to all you guys.

 

Glad you got it resolved!.

I have a collection of O2 that have been killed by Sensor Safe RTV.

You can misplace a # or $ in source code, and have it assemble, but not run right in a car. I know the 3 day high effor no return feeling all too well.