question for all the people who have successfully tuned thier combos and are happy with performance from idle to wot -- how long would it take you if you had to do it all over again ? granted you have all the tools. Datalogger, your choice of editing software, WBO2, PROMinator.

Just curious how long it might take an experienced tuner to get my combo running right ? if there were such a person anywhere around Northern Cal . . . a day ? week ? longer ?

 

i am not all that confident i could get tune 90% without a WB02. seems a lot of guessing would be involved. i have about 20 burns in 2003 and another 20 in 2004. (weekends). and still not right. this week i had the WB02 so now know exactly where to concentrate. VE and PE were good. need work coolant/enrichment and AE. especially AE. my AE tables suggested rich as did SOP but i had no idea how rich i was till first log with WB. i corrected AE and will know tonight what effect it had. still too rich on AE i assume. will need to add the TPS/RPM function so i can reference that to my WB A/F logs. past year and a half was learning. now i am further along the curve and confidence growing due to WB.

 

Sometimes I do start from scratch. That's only if I made too many changes at once or was testing an idea. When I do start with a fresh bin it'll take maybe two hours to have the engine 95% tuned. The last 5% is impossible to obtain, but I will continue to try. You might think that 5% means the chip is not good but actually GM only does a half azz job to start with,IMO.

It's hard to say. My suggestion is to do it yourself. Entry level chip equipment/software is under $200. There is people like me that will walk you through the tuning process. Unless you find a tuner that has some type of real (business) insurance , then I personally wouldn't risk a stranger messing with MY engine

 

I can't tell you the hours.... or the days..... maybe weeks or months. I usually take any free time I have going through data and making small changes, then I drive around, data-log, give the butt a few days to come to a conclusion, then look at the data and make more small changes .

 

lol Im with John anywhere from one change to dyas straight of gettign someone to drive and using the Romulator on the fly with an notebook in the other hand. This is just my stuff.

About 1/4 to 1/2 the time on my stuff had spent spent working/playing/tuning friends cars and just seeing how other combos and masks work too.

Its never "perfect" least I dont think it ever will be.

later
Jeremy

 

If someone is a real Pro, and charging you money for being a Pro, then they should be able to do it in one shot. I mean they are claiming to be a Pro.

Let them take a 5 min test drive, and punch it in 1st gear, and they should have all the data they need, right?.

For the rest of mere mortals, it can take awhile, and depending on fussy one is that *awhile* can range from days to years.

And there are some guys that are so good they claim to be able to tune a car by just looking at a datlog, and not even drive the car.... LOL

 

Its taken me on My, Blown, Cammed, Built 355 about 1 year
tuning 50% of the time,
If I couild drive it every day a few hours a day with a wide Band O2 , Romulator and Lots of battery time in my laptop, I could Tune it in about 4 weeks maybe.

 

Tuning at least once every two weeks or so, I could guess that I have about 117 hours in the last year and a half on my tune. I tuned by "butt dyno" and a vacuum guage and got an almost perfect A/F ratio when I finally did make it to the real dyno.

I still mess with lockup speeds , highway mode A/F and spark, and low speed/load A/F ratios. I also will be trying to force closed loop mode on the next burn since every little weather change screws up my start up idle. Never ending...

 

Thanks for the feedback guys. Its just that after setting up the birds ride, reinforcing the chassis, beefing up the suspension, drivetrain, and beautifying the interior & exterior, the L03 with leaky seals was the last replacement -- and the most eagerly anticipated one. That was in March. Fast forward to September -- its been over 6 months since I've got the car back with the new 355 and the most signifigant journey I've made was 30 miles to thirdgen gtg and back (well technically I didnt make it back). . .
It just gets frusturating reading posts, making changes (weekends only), taking notes, making changes, asking questions, only to go for a short ride and end up limping home. And lately with family, fiancees and houses I've alot more money than time -- and to know that my 'dream car' come to life is patiently waiting in my garage for me to figure all this out, sometimes, feels like it is too much for a mere mortal like myself . . .
I feel like I've forgotten why I purchased the wrecked bird 4 years ago, why I've put over 20 grand into it, and mostly what it feels like to drive it . . .
I wonder if I ever will . . .

 

Sounds like you have the prom burning equipment? You can call me if you need help. Don't give up on your car. It'll be worth all the trouble in the end. Trust me

 

Thanks for the offer. Yeah, I've got a handful of laptops (goes with the territory when your a programmer) -- TunerCat & TunerProRT for editing. WinALDL, a Zt-2 WBO2 for datalogging, and a PROMinator Pro.
From what I gather on these boards, and my experiences working with Ed Wright over at Fastchips its almost impossible to get a really good tune unless you have access to the car. While speaking to someone about the various driveability problems I have would be helpful (I've been already posting q's for the past few months), rather I would like to get someone to come out, or take it somewhere where the tuner will have access to the car. And in the process perhaps shed some light on the process.
I've know of some pro tuners charge upwards of 100/hr -- I actually wouldn't mind paying someone for several hours who could get this car running as well as it should -- except I can find no one with any experience tuning these cars in the bay area. Any offers are gladly welcome.

 

I'm shocked.
"weeks, months, years, it never ends ?"
maybe Im not giving myself enough credit . . .

so, am I to understand that no one on these boards has ever sucessfully tuned thier combo from idle to wot, through open and closed loop, leaving egr and all emissions equiptment operable ?

 

It has nothing at all to do with what people say it should be like and their is no defined done.

I would consider it complete when u are happy with where the car is and how it runs/drives and can no longer ring any more from it :-)

Its done when the end user(you) thinks it is...

So many variables, running stock maska dn tuning? running your own code? etc? It goes on and on if u want it to or make it fun to drove and call it a day

later
Jeremy

 

i might suggest the WB02 will reduce the time 20X. and that is conservative.

 

The time period it takes to tune the combo is mostly dependent upon how often the vehicle is driven. On my daily driven LG4/TBI vehicle it was about 4 weeks from start to finish. Since there is no equivalent TBI engines I started with one that was an automatic, same as the driver. I also used the SA tables pulled from the original CCC ECM for that engine.

I used a stock 350 TBI & injectors, dropped the BPC a tad, and started logging.

Then again I data logged every day. And I have progams that analyze the data logs to create new VE tables along with mapping out knock retard.

So it was drive to and from work while logging, run the programs, make the changes, burn a PROM, and do the same the next day.

Now take a vehicle that is driven maybe twice a month, and only in good weather (skip's winter). And those four weeks now become an entire year or more.

As for your setup, how modified is the 355? And, are you still using a TBI unit and the '8746 ECM? Which TBI unit and which injectors? Fuel pump? Do you use WinALDL and Jon's VE program (Aldl2Bin?)?

RBob.

 

Guy, you are not even close. My car runs like a champ. The cam specs are 242/250*_.570"_114lsa. It starts in cold or hot weather perfectly. I never have to apply throttle when it's cold. Idle is perfect, you can search my UN to find out what methods I used. I have gotten 30+mpg out of my 406, by tuning the ecm. Even though my cylinder heads are choking off my engine it'll hit 12's next time at the track. That's because with ecm tuning I can compensate for anything, to a certain degree. This elusive (let's say) 5% is really just the razors edge. EFI tuning has endless possibilities. The ecm can be "taught" to do anything....

 

Please, tell me more about your experiences with Ed

 

It's more of a matter of seeing how perfect one can get it after a while, and that's alot about drivibility and the driver.

I consider the stock calibrations as just barely drivible. They are just miserable, IMO. If you were to consider a stocka calibration as *good*, then you a shape tuner should get that in like 10 chips. And then figure 3 more for WOT, is close is close enough for you, ie stock being good.

Then there's what feels good vs what's correct. One can always add alot of fuel, and timing, and get good short term drivibility and then wind up knocking the corners off the pistons.

But, it takes alot of experience to be able to be that good. So your mixing apples and oranges to some extent.

 

The block is a 5.7L 350 Factory Hydraulic Roller bored .030 over
10.1:1 compression ratio
Edelbrock Performer heads 2.02/1.60 valves,
Edelbrock Performer intake manifold #3704
Hydraulic Roller Cam, 218/224 @.05
Edelbock 3" TES, High flow cat, 3" exhaust all the way
Turbo City high flow TBI unit, 75lb BB injectors @ 20psi
Walbro 190lph pump.
I currently use WinALDL, TC, TunerPro, and have a zt-2 WBO2 with logging software. And the PROMinator Pro for instant gratification I have used Jon's VE program -- however, something is wrong with the bin it produces for me (checksum ?) for some reason every time I use the bin the ALDL2BIN produces I get a flashing SES error code: incorrect PROM, if I open the BIN in TunerCat and resav;e problem goes away. . . .so generally I run the numbers and plug them in myself.

 

I feel alot better writing this now then when all I knew about chips was that "I needed one". During the time the engine was being built I knew I'd need a chip to run it well. I researched various chip burners. Fastchips charged the most for a chip @350 bucks a pop -- I concluded they had the best online presence, burned custom chips, had a long history, and for that kinda money he should have a pretty good idea of what he's doing.
The PROM I received was good enough to get the car running, but it was awfully rich at idle - leading to limp home mode half the time. . . which led me to get an ALDL cable and send him BLM logs to try again. Try #2 was better, but still left me dead rich.
Right about this time Mr. Bill and Ken were announcing the final changes made to the PROMinator so I thanked Ed for his time, and thought to myself "this is something I want to get into". 6 months later Im happy to say Im still using Ed's base code with a few slight adjustments to the fueling tables. He did a great job as proven, I think, by the fact that the first time on a dyno with the base code of the second chip the car pulled 215rwhp with stock 55lb injectors and stock pump @11psi. Im really looking forward to seeing what kind of power Iwill make with the 75'ers at 20psi.

 

Looks like a decently tunable package to me. What is the LDA & lift on the cam? And what kind of tuning issues are you having?

RBob.

 

I assume you mean LSA & lift . . .

Intake Exhaust
Valve Adjustment 0 0
Gross Valve Lift 0.495 0.503
Duration At 0.006 Tappet Lift 269 276
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valve Timing At 0.006
Open Close
Intake 26 62
Exhaust 74 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These Specs Are For The Cam Installed At 108 Intake CL
Intake Exhaust
Duration At 0.05 218 224
Lobe Lift 0.33 0.335
Lobe Separation 112
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me start by saying last night fortune was on my side as I finally seem to have got the AE squared away (knock on wood). . .so thats got me a warm fuzzy feeling all over.

Current annyances for me right now is an IAC count that eventually works it way from 80 steps down to 0 steps -- when it hits 0 the engine dies -- car stalls out. Which is very curious because compared to the stock bin I did not toy at all with anything IAC related. And I have a control bin which is a stock bin. I've only edited the bpw and ve#1 for running at idle and it does not have this problem.
Second is 'idle hunting' -- for the first minute the car is steady at around 1000 rpms +-50. Soon after, the idle starts varying between 750-1100 as the IAC counts cycle constantly lower. Once again, this condition is not present in my control bin.
And last, I believe the decel enleanment is too strong. I let off the gas after a wot run in 4th and I see a spike in O2 up to 20:1 before it returns to stoich.

 

Yes to the LSA, which is the same as LDA. Two different terms for the same spec.

Healthy cam with a 112 LSA shouldn't be too bad in the tuning department. But for a beginner it can be troublesome.

Sounds like idle is a problem. In this case with having a bin where there are no idle problems I would compare the SA, VE, and idle correction terms between the two bins.

This is to get the idle to steady down. Usually flattening the SA and VE in the idle area helps. Also, the idle correction SA terms can be too much. A healthy engine will respond to SA changes to a greater magnitude then a stock engine. Sometimes it can help to eliminate the idle correction SA (set tables to 0 SA) until the VE and idle area main timing are under control.

Then bring in a little SA correction. Only need enough to prevent a rolling idle.

As for the IAC dropping to zero and the engine stalling. Have you increased the desired idle RPM? Stock is usually around 525 RPM. Set the desired idle to something like 750 or 800 RPM. Even 850 until things start getting squared away. Can always lower it a little later on.

The biggest problem is that you can't get enough data resolution from the ECM. Going from one packet of 20 bytes every 1.6 seconds to having 17 packets a second of 256 bytes is a revelation.

It really makes a difference in the ability to tune. And of course some nice code functionality changes. . .

RBob.

 

Thank you for the suggestions.
Forgot to mention that the control bin also has a target idle of 700. I have tried target idle speeds as high as 850 with no improvement in idle quality. A lower target idle definately produces more of a lope, but does nothing to help the +-300 rpm variation.
I must admit, I dont follow when you talk about eliminating the idle correction SA (set tables to 0 SA) until the VE and idle area main timing are under control.

Then bring in a little SA correction. Only need enough to prevent a rolling idle.

This is the Main Spark table currently in my control bin. Good idle quality.
Main Spark Bias = 20d


and my current bin. Good at part throttle but poor idle characteristics
Main Spark Bias = 0d

 

In the '8746 there are two sets of tables that will add or subtract SA in order to help control the idle. One set is for a low idle the other set for a high idle. There is a SA table and then a multiplier based on MAP.

Here are the high/low SA tables:
These are from ANLU, and as such will add or subtract a lot of timing (+6.25/-7.25 degrees). See the hac on moates.net for additional info.

Zero out or at least greatly reduce the timing in those tables.

Looking at the tables you posted there is a large difference in timing at idle. I'll SWAG your idle MAP to be 45-50 KPa at the 700 RPM. In the 'bad' bin the idle SA is 24°, the 'control' bin is at 12-13°.

Also note how the control bin has staggered the SA. There is some idle correction built into the main SA table.

I would lower the at idle SA to say 16° -18° and lower the rate of SA increase vs. RPM (this is as the RPM icreases through the table). In this manner if a little surge occurs the main SA won't help the surge.

RBob.

 

I think I'm going to try and zero out those tables. I did notice a tad bit of map sway but it was never enough to actually adjust the actual idle speed! Rock solid after trimming down the o2 prop duration.

 

IMO, the only time to change those tables is if your ecm is sensing an idle error. From what I understand, they don't even get applied until the ecm detects one.

 

A high idle will use those tables and yes my min idle is set relatively low so if it runs slightly rich (afr climbs a bit) the ecm sets the flag for high idle and uses these tables. I know for a fact that it's effected my AE tuning. What's happened is the ecm see's a high idle, takes out timing to get it to idle down, then I open the throttle and my AE bogs the car rich.... ( I don't have RPM AE corrections). It's frustrating because it happens once in a while from a warm engine at a light. Usually about every 20th or so and it's just not perfect that it gets on my nerves.
Also what happens if you have a vacuum leak, how will these tables effect how the car opperates, for better or worse? I'd rather just fix any mehanical problems and have no corrections at idle.

 

well I only been doing this for a little while but I still put in a few hours a day but still tring to read up on everything so I have not been changeing alot. I guess about 40 hours mostly datalogging. 11sorbust I sent you a pm.

 

My "mechanical" problem is the overcompensating cam. The specs are 242/250* duration, close to .600" lift. I like my idle as low as possible w/o engine stalling. I dont care if the idle varies 25rpms higher or lower. The ecm did, but it forgot about that now. I have never ran across someone else with that problem....

 

What's your oil pressure at idle? I'd be a bit leary of going as low as possible. I can get my car to idle at 450rpm but that was just stupid slow. The oil pressure was low and tip in was getting bad (AE again with no rpm compensation).

 

35psi(aprox)...

 

Jon, this sounds real familiar. I noticed yesterday that my "hunting" idle is synchronous with the "rich flag" getting checked, and unchecked in winALDL. I thought I read this was normal, and simply showed that the O2 was swinging through it's range.
Is the "high idle" flag something we can observe ? Is it a flag I can monitor in WinALDL ?

 

When the idle flag is registered rich will come on from the o2 bias when at idle. This bias shifts the window range for closed loop to richen up the idle. It's all a royal PITA on anything that has a cam other than stock.... so open loop is a very enviting option. I think grumpy runs open loop idles and same with rbob, then light cruise closed loop... not exactly sure how they did it but I think it's a source code thing. I bet if I tried really hard I could patch the $61 mask to go open loop whenever the idle flag was set .
11sorbust, what's your idle speed? 35psi is pretty high for a "low" idle on a warm engine. I wish I could say I've seen it that high... aftermarket oil pump maybe?

 

I tried Rbobs suggestions.
First I zeroed out the high and low idle correction tables. No observable effect on the idle speed ranges. Next I tired reducing the timing in my main spark table by 3/4 in the idle range (about 18d). Unfortunately, no big change. Here you can see the rpms swing back and forth along with the map (commanded idle speed is 800).

 

It may need some work on the VE table. What are the differences between the VE table in the stock (control) bin vs. the modified bin?

One item that is probably coming into play is MAP AE. With large swings the MAP AE comes into affect and adds fuel. There are some really rich areas in that data log.

The IAC is also doing quite a lot. It may be a good idea to calm down the IAC by slowing the reaction time. These parameters:

These are for the '8746 which IIRC you are using. Make value at location LD516 a 3, and at LD518 a 2. This will slow down the IAC a bit and help stabllize the idle. Hopefully enough to allow you to tune it a bit.

Can also add one more to the small error terms.

{edit: leave the changed SA tables as is. At this point it will be helpful to keep moving areas toward the control bin parameters. Then once the idle is under control to tweak individual areas for better driveability.}

RBob.

 

The VE tables between stock and modified bins are identical. I was originally tuning at idle with my control bin. Not until I took the car for a ride did I determine the other bin was much better at the ae and pe stuff. The ve tables in the modified bin came from my control bin, which is stock, except for fueling (bpw & ve tables).
I'll make the changes you recommended to the IAC delay and see if that helps smooth the idle some.

 

Where is your map sensor getting it's signal from? Also try resetting the ecm to close the IAC to 0 and unplug it, then tune the idle. This will help you determine if you've got some wires backwards on the IAC (commanded closed but goes open etc.) You can also check that the IAC is wired correctly by watching the way the pintle moves when you turn off the ignition. The pintle should extend out (closed to 0) and then retract in to 160.
Another value to look at is the AE based on IAC opening. My car was running rich whenever the IAC was opening and it was because the AE is pulsewidth, not based on injector size... and I'm running 28psi . I don't have the dsm on this computer or I'd tell you that address, if you can't find it I'll reply with it later in the evening.
Isn't it amazing how much control software is designed into these OLD ecm's . Almost too much , but the tune reflects 50% engine, 50% driver.

 

OK, dumb question time, what was changed to go from the stock bin to the modified bin? And, when you switch between the stock bin and the modified bin is there anything on the engine that you change (IE: fuel pressure)?

Can you just start over with the stock bin and go from there. The reason I ask is that there seems to be something else going on here.

The VE tables are the same and the SA in the idle area is the same, so why does one idle properly while the other does not?

RBob.

 

The 'modified' chip was programmed by Ed Wright at Fastchips. This chip seems to have the go at all RPM's up through 6000RPM - this is the chip I used on my dyno run. I simply lowered the BPW and AE tables to accomodate the new 75lb injectors and raised fuel pressure.
No, I don't physically do anything when swithching bins, except twist the little DIP switch and disconnect the negative for 10 secs.
I can, but the car really seems to be lacking all kinds of power -- throughout the entire rpm band when i do. Heres my "As Built"
Starting AXKU.BIN
-----------------
Constants :
Main Spark Bias: 20-->0
BPW 134-->100
fuel cutoff 108 --> 255
fuel resume 106 --> 254
target idle speed 600 --> 800
targer idle speed w/ ac 612.5 --> 850
max cold speed 1400 --> 1200
max hot speed 750 --> 900

Tables:
Main Spark Advance Vs. RPM Vs. Load, import from FASTCHIP
Cool Compensation Spark Advance, import from FASTCHIP
Power Enrichment Spark Correction Vs. Load, 0out, import from FASTCHIP
Max Knock Retard Vs. Map, import from FASTCHIP
VE Table #1, import from CONTROL
VE Table #2, import from CONTROL
Power Enrichment AFR Vs. RPM, import from FASTCHIP
Accel. Enrichement vs TPS, import from ANLU *.866
Accel. Enrichement vs. Map, import from ANLU *.866
Accel. Enrichemnt Correction vs. Coolant Temp, import from ANLU
Open Loop Air Fuel Ratio Vs. Coolant Temp, import from FASTCHIP
I wish i knew. Really I do.

 

Might this be the AE based on IAC opening your talking about ?

LD222: FCB 8; IAC opening additional AE bpw, 120usc

 

That's it.

 

Eh EH oh uh uh ohoh call on me, call on ME! I have an answer.
Notice how you put the main SA bias from 20 to 0, well you just added 20 degrees to everything UNLESS the Fastchip also was tuned for 0 degrees of main bias. Remember that the bias is subtracted, same with the cool spark bias. If you just import those tables you could be 20 degrees too much timing and actually stopping your engine with that much advance.
Check the Fastchip's main bias and either set the new bin to that value or if it's say 6, then you can keep your main bias at 0 and just subtrace 6 from the main spark table.

 

Yes the fastchip was tuned at 0d main spark bias. I believe tunercat takes into account the spark bias when importing tables for you, but i will double check that now, make sure everything adds up, you could be right.

I made changes to the IAC delay and logged the session here log.xls (excel) you can exactly where i flipped the switch, line 209, idle smooths out, map smooths, niiiiice.
I dont see any change in IAC delay in the first half of the log, although the values for the stock chip were different then in the hac. 0's at locations 516 and 518, changed to 3's and 2's.

 

Much better. Now that the IAC is under control you'll be able to tune in the idle better. It looks like it still bounces around a little. I noticed that on the 'bad' portion of the log one of the BLM cells is at 117. While the idle area cell is at 127 (from the 'good' portion of the log).

The 117 BLM area looks to be 900 RPM and < 45 MAP (or so). May be able to pin point it by holding the engine speed up a hair. Then lean out that area of the VE table.

Play with the proportional gains and SA to get the idle better. Once the idle is good then decrease the IAC delay terms.

RBob.

 

This is the same guy that felt like giving up?

 

yep, still is -- what choice do I have ?. . . when I originally posted the questions "how many hours do you have into your tune" I mean the first, numero uno --before you felt it was 'good enough', and now you tune just to make it better. I have had my car now for 6+ months and have yet to make it to that first all important milestone that I can even remotely call it good enough. This makes me feel like turning it over to someone who knows more than I can hope to learn in a years time.
But I also realize that tuning this car can and is the most rewarding thing I can do, and when people like Rbob and Jon are lending a hand I feel there is no better.
Im envoius of many people out there that continue to optimize after they have a solid tune, and keep finding ways to improve it. However, I cannot conisder my car to be anywhere close to reliable / daily driver status it once enjoyed . . . its been relegated to grocery store duty -- if its a good day. What I wouldn't give just to magically have that first bin thats 'good enough', and remember what it feels like to drive for fun again.

 

Well, if you keep plugging away like you did in this thread, you'll be there in no time. I have been at it for years and still learn ways to improve my tune. Not to mention that I continually make changes to the car, that prom tuning can help optimize. You are much better off learning how to do it for yourself. The biggest thing is to get over your fear of "blowing up" the engine. Everyone has that feeling when starting out. I got over it real quick and started making radical changes to see what the software/table does(since there is no real documentation or support). Not suggesting that for you, but I think you need to devote several days to making changes and taking notes. Also having a wideband will help. Good luck and don't give up.