Help tuning 165
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Car: 87TA 87Form 71Mach1 93FleetWB 04Cum
Help tuning 165
I’m messing with an 87 350 tpi engine running a 165 with what started as some 89 350 TPI code (the cold start injector has been removed), that is far enough off that I’m not sure really where to go with it and am looking for suggestions. (a lot of the problem is that I’m still basically just a noob and don’t really know the best way to deal with a lot of things)
With the injector constant set to the actual value of the injectors at start up it has a real problem right off of idle for the first minute/mile or so, that goes away quickly, it misses, backfires through the intake and tries to stall when you first give it throttle. Otherwise, once it’s warm it’s lean at idle and light cruise but good everyplace else (based on wide band and scan data).
Just as an experiment I actually raised the injector constant about 8% (I know, it really doesn’t make sense but it was something that I came up with at 3am when I wasn’t really thinking clearly), and it made the cold start problems worse (have to keep my foot in the throttle to keep it running for that first mile or so), killed the off idle response across the board, but the warm idle and light throttle cruise, which I thought was lean before actually got better (raising the injector constant should lower fuel delivery, right?)
So my instinct right now is to set the injector constant back down to the right value and am looking for advice on how to get the rest of this dialed in (at least to fix the drivability problems) as quickly as possible.
With the injector constant set to the actual value of the injectors at start up it has a real problem right off of idle for the first minute/mile or so, that goes away quickly, it misses, backfires through the intake and tries to stall when you first give it throttle. Otherwise, once it’s warm it’s lean at idle and light cruise but good everyplace else (based on wide band and scan data).
Just as an experiment I actually raised the injector constant about 8% (I know, it really doesn’t make sense but it was something that I came up with at 3am when I wasn’t really thinking clearly), and it made the cold start problems worse (have to keep my foot in the throttle to keep it running for that first mile or so), killed the off idle response across the board, but the warm idle and light throttle cruise, which I thought was lean before actually got better (raising the injector constant should lower fuel delivery, right?)
So my instinct right now is to set the injector constant back down to the right value and am looking for advice on how to get the rest of this dialed in (at least to fix the drivability problems) as quickly as possible.
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Huh, actually, looking at this some more, things that would help me the most are how to change specific things with the 6E mask:
- where is the easiest/best place to add fuel under cold start, or at least to cover that first minute or so?
- I still don’t think that I’m totally clear on the MAF tables/MAF scalars. Correct me if I’m wrong, but raising a value in the MAF tables increases the fuel delivery at that point right? Now changing the scalar for the table, does that change what the value in the table means or just the upper limit that you can have in that table, in other words, say if I have a value of 13.74gms/sec at 1.10V and I change the table scalar for that table, does the 13.74 value still deliver the same amount of fuel?
- This thing definitely seems to want more fuel when you give it some throttle… what’s the best way to do this? Do I want to change the “minimum %TPS to enable power enrichment” (does that only work when cold since there is a second one named the same but with (hot coolant) after it)? Or do I just want to add fuel to the PE vs rpm table?
- where is the easiest/best place to add fuel under cold start, or at least to cover that first minute or so?
- I still don’t think that I’m totally clear on the MAF tables/MAF scalars. Correct me if I’m wrong, but raising a value in the MAF tables increases the fuel delivery at that point right? Now changing the scalar for the table, does that change what the value in the table means or just the upper limit that you can have in that table, in other words, say if I have a value of 13.74gms/sec at 1.10V and I change the table scalar for that table, does the 13.74 value still deliver the same amount of fuel?
- This thing definitely seems to want more fuel when you give it some throttle… what’s the best way to do this? Do I want to change the “minimum %TPS to enable power enrichment” (does that only work when cold since there is a second one named the same but with (hot coolant) after it)? Or do I just want to add fuel to the PE vs rpm table?
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From: Corona
Car: 92 Form, 91 Z28, 89 GTA, 86 Z28
Engine: BP383 vortech, BP383, 5.7 TPI, LG4
Transmission: 4L60e, 700R4, 700R4..
Axle/Gears: 3.27, 2.73
Yeah, sounds like it's quite lean at cold startup/warmup (backfire through intake, off idle stumble). But, first things first:
Check to see that the CTS is reading correctly.
Make sure the MAF burnoff is working - remove intake ducting (air cleaner side of MAF), run engine for a while, and look into MAF just at key off. See if the wire glows red after key off.
Set the injector constant to the correct value, and drive to see how close the BLM's are at medium loads. If it's really far off, maybe there's another problem, or maybe what you're using to set the injector constant isn't actually calculating it correctly. For now, fudge it until medium load BLMs are 120-128.
Then, with a warm engine, you can adjust MAF tables and scalars to get idle and light loads set to 120-128 BLM. You may want to make a spreadsheet in Excel to help match up the Scalars and the first entries for each table. (In TP RT 3.09) If you change a scalar, you'll have to change the multiplier for the corresponding MAF table. MAF table 1 is probably the only one you'll need to mess with, and then blend it into table 2 if the scalar changed.
If you changed things a lot, check another cold start.
If cold warmups still suck for the first 20 seconds or so, there's a place in the $6E code to add Afterstart enrichment (NOT AE, that's Acceleration Enrichment). It wasn't in any of the .ecu's that I could find, so I hacked it out myself. See the attached image. This changes the amount of additional fuel just AFTER cranking, and this decays out somewhat quickly until gone, and then you're using the open loop tables, until closed loop turns on.
Try to do things in this order, unless you just want to experimentally add fuel to see if it's lean. If you do it out of order, you may cover up the lean with the wrong algorithm, then when you fix the right algorithm, the previous fix will have to be undone.
Check to see that the CTS is reading correctly.
Make sure the MAF burnoff is working - remove intake ducting (air cleaner side of MAF), run engine for a while, and look into MAF just at key off. See if the wire glows red after key off.
Set the injector constant to the correct value, and drive to see how close the BLM's are at medium loads. If it's really far off, maybe there's another problem, or maybe what you're using to set the injector constant isn't actually calculating it correctly. For now, fudge it until medium load BLMs are 120-128.
Then, with a warm engine, you can adjust MAF tables and scalars to get idle and light loads set to 120-128 BLM. You may want to make a spreadsheet in Excel to help match up the Scalars and the first entries for each table. (In TP RT 3.09) If you change a scalar, you'll have to change the multiplier for the corresponding MAF table. MAF table 1 is probably the only one you'll need to mess with, and then blend it into table 2 if the scalar changed.
If you changed things a lot, check another cold start.
If cold warmups still suck for the first 20 seconds or so, there's a place in the $6E code to add Afterstart enrichment (NOT AE, that's Acceleration Enrichment). It wasn't in any of the .ecu's that I could find, so I hacked it out myself. See the attached image. This changes the amount of additional fuel just AFTER cranking, and this decays out somewhat quickly until gone, and then you're using the open loop tables, until closed loop turns on.
Try to do things in this order, unless you just want to experimentally add fuel to see if it's lean. If you do it out of order, you may cover up the lean with the wrong algorithm, then when you fix the right algorithm, the previous fix will have to be undone.
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Car: 87TA 87Form 71Mach1 93FleetWB 04Cum
Well, what I just tried:
- set the injector constant back to the injector size
- set the PE to come in a little sooner
- gave it more PE in the PE vs temp in the range that I’m seeing at cold start in this weather
- bumped Open Loop AFR Ratio % Change vs. Cooolant Temp in that same range
Cold start was MUCH better… there was still a bad stumble off idle, but you could drive thorugh it, you weren’t at the mercy of whatever speed you’re rolling at, it would just stumble and go, and it was only a probablem for about half the distance that it was before. Actually, almost everything was better this way.
It also felt much better once warm coming off idle. There is still a sorta crispness, raggedness (obvious lean feeling) in some places with changing throttle position, but it’s much better overall.
What does: Rich/Lean Offset Vs. Coolant do?
While out for my test drive, i was wondering about the MAF tables... in theory I suppose you shouldn't have to change them as long as you're running the same maf, right?
- set the injector constant back to the injector size
- set the PE to come in a little sooner
- gave it more PE in the PE vs temp in the range that I’m seeing at cold start in this weather
- bumped Open Loop AFR Ratio % Change vs. Cooolant Temp in that same range
Cold start was MUCH better… there was still a bad stumble off idle, but you could drive thorugh it, you weren’t at the mercy of whatever speed you’re rolling at, it would just stumble and go, and it was only a probablem for about half the distance that it was before. Actually, almost everything was better this way.
It also felt much better once warm coming off idle. There is still a sorta crispness, raggedness (obvious lean feeling) in some places with changing throttle position, but it’s much better overall.
What does: Rich/Lean Offset Vs. Coolant do?
While out for my test drive, i was wondering about the MAF tables... in theory I suppose you shouldn't have to change them as long as you're running the same maf, right?
Thread Starter
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From: DC Metro Area
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Originally posted by RednGold86Z
Check to see that the CTS is reading correctly.
Make sure the MAF burnoff is working - remove intake ducting (air cleaner side of MAF), run engine for a while, and look into MAF just at key off. See if the wire glows red after key off.
Check to see that the CTS is reading correctly.
Make sure the MAF burnoff is working - remove intake ducting (air cleaner side of MAF), run engine for a while, and look into MAF just at key off. See if the wire glows red after key off.
I’m pretty sure that both are OK, I’ve got 2 mafs for the car and it has a new CTS in it since the old one was messed up, but it won’t be a big deal to check both tomorrow.
Set the injector constant to the correct value, and drive to see how close the BLM's are at medium loads. If it's really far off, maybe there's another problem, or maybe what you're using to set the injector constant isn't actually calculating it correctly. For now, fudge it until medium load BLMs are 120-128.
Define medium load… are we talking normal cruise or light/mild accel or what?
Then, with a warm engine, you can adjust MAF tables and scalars to get idle and light loads set to 120-128 BLM. You may want to make a spreadsheet in Excel to help match up the Scalars and the first entries for each table. (In TP RT 3.09) If you change a scalar, you'll have to change the multiplier for the corresponding MAF table. MAF table 1 is probably the only one you'll need to mess with, and then blend it into table 2 if the scalar changed.
can you explain this more? I’ve read it a few different ways and have asked about it before and I just don’t get this. By multiplier, do you mean the “factor” in the properties? How do you figure this out? I’m not following the Excel spread sheet scalar/first entry thing at all (not that I have a probem with excel or anything, I’m sure that I can make it do whatever I need if I understood what I was hoping to make it do.
If you changed things a lot, check another cold start.
If cold warmups still suck for the first 20 seconds or so, there's a place in the $6E code to add Afterstart enrichment (NOT AE, that's Acceleration Enrichment). It wasn't in any of the .ecu's that I could find, so I hacked it out myself.
If cold warmups still suck for the first 20 seconds or so, there's a place in the $6E code to add Afterstart enrichment (NOT AE, that's Acceleration Enrichment). It wasn't in any of the .ecu's that I could find, so I hacked it out myself.
Yea, I noticed that there were settings like that for timing but no fuel.
By “hacked it out yourself” can you explain how you found it? Is there a “this is what’s here” chart or is there some way to figure it out on your own without resorting to “well, lets change this bit and see what happens?”
See the attached image. This changes the amount of additional fuel just AFTER cranking, and this decays out somewhat quickly until gone, and then you're using the open loop tables, until closed loop turns on.
ah, that’s the other thing that I forgot to mention, I richened up the open loop tables slightly in that temperature range. Will the open loop tables effect anything besides open loop right after start up? It would be nice if this was just a convenient place for a base multiplier that gets applied against the MAF tables… all the time, just modified more closed loop.
Try to do things in this order, unless you just want to experimentally add fuel to see if it's lean. If you do it out of order, you may cover up the lean with the wrong algorithm, then when you fix the right algorithm, the previous fix will have to be undone.
BTW, thanks for all the help
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Let me make sure that I’m getting this right, looks like for the afterstart enrichment you’ve got it going in 12* C steps, since I wanted it in F, I converted it and got:
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From: Corona
Car: 92 Form, 91 Z28, 89 GTA, 86 Z28
Engine: BP383 vortech, BP383, 5.7 TPI, LG4
Transmission: 4L60e, 700R4, 700R4..
Axle/Gears: 3.27, 2.73
PE (Power Enrichment) is definitely the wrong table to use to correct this problem. PE only comes on when the throttle is open really far.
AE (Acceleration Enrichment) is the table to use to fix throttle movement stumbles.
Medium load, I dunno, part throttle, getting to highway speed at a medium pace, keeping out of PE.
I hacked it out using the BUA $32 hack. Much of the calibrated values are the same, but are in different locations (most things are still grouped similarly, just shifted). I looked at the numbers for similar values from the hack, and found the same patterns.
In Tunerpro RT 3.09 (I think 4.0 might do it automatically), the MAF scalars have a corresponding multiplier put in each of the MAF tables co. To calculate it, just take scalar/255. If you change a scalar, you have to change the table above it to match the lowest value there with the highest value of the table below it.
I *think* open loop modifiers in $6E only affect open loop, such as cold engine (but not PE. PE has its own vs temp table, as you've found).
gotta go, and, you're welcome.
AE (Acceleration Enrichment) is the table to use to fix throttle movement stumbles.
Medium load, I dunno, part throttle, getting to highway speed at a medium pace, keeping out of PE.
I hacked it out using the BUA $32 hack. Much of the calibrated values are the same, but are in different locations (most things are still grouped similarly, just shifted). I looked at the numbers for similar values from the hack, and found the same patterns.
In Tunerpro RT 3.09 (I think 4.0 might do it automatically), the MAF scalars have a corresponding multiplier put in each of the MAF tables co. To calculate it, just take scalar/255. If you change a scalar, you have to change the table above it to match the lowest value there with the highest value of the table below it.
I *think* open loop modifiers in $6E only affect open loop, such as cold engine (but not PE. PE has its own vs temp table, as you've found).
gotta go, and, you're welcome.
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Which AE table, vs LV8 or decay factor vs coolant temp? For that matter, what is the AE decay factor vs coolant temp... if I'm reading it right it looks like it's allowing for AE to happen longer as the temp gets higher?
Gonna go burn all this off to a chip and see how it does...
Gonna go burn all this off to a chip and see how it does...
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Heh. You guys are using old versions of TunerPro. That's cute. ;-)
(just kidding - but seriously, give 4.0 a shot?!)
(just kidding - but seriously, give 4.0 a shot?!)
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Heh, yea, unfortunately, I mess with prom stuff probably once every few months, don’t think I’ve touched it for 6 mo or more before yesterday or the day before.
I downloaded the new version and did the last revision (the one that I was going to go for a test drive with) this afternoon… I tried adding RednGold’s ‘afterstart enrichment’ to the 6E .XDF that came with it and with a little improvising it looks like it worked OK.
Like I said in the other thread... I really like it, but haven't played with it enough to see all of it.
So Magnus, does 4 do anything different with the maf tables/scalars/factors?
For that matter, I _really_ still need someone to dumb that whole deal down for me a little more. I still don't think I'm getting it.
I downloaded the new version and did the last revision (the one that I was going to go for a test drive with) this afternoon… I tried adding RednGold’s ‘afterstart enrichment’ to the 6E .XDF that came with it and with a little improvising it looks like it worked OK.
Like I said in the other thread... I really like it, but haven't played with it enough to see all of it.
So Magnus, does 4 do anything different with the maf tables/scalars/factors?
For that matter, I _really_ still need someone to dumb that whole deal down for me a little more. I still don't think I'm getting it.
Last edited by 83 Crossfire TA; May 12, 2005 at 09:37 PM.
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Oh, BTW, RednGold… THANK YOU!
The tidbits of advice you gave me here has gotten me looking at the right things and got me further with the experimenting that I’m doing and with getting the car to run the way I want it then all the previous reading, archives and answers that I’ve gotten.
The car is running GREAT! The cold start/running problem is almost totally gone (by that I mean that it runs fine, but it is just barely noticeably not as snappy as it is once warmed up.) Now I can get to some fine tuning, but for the most part the car is totally drivable without any quirks that I noticed.
Oh, and for those of you that are curious, the part that I left out… I have the car running with 77lb/hr injectors. The big, honking injectors need to be treated somewhat differently during transients (I’m guessing mostly that they’re slower to respond and changes that are proportionately smaller to the total fueling possible are more difficult to control), things like % change for AE and temp changes have to be bigger…. I think that as it sits it would even pass emissions.
The tidbits of advice you gave me here has gotten me looking at the right things and got me further with the experimenting that I’m doing and with getting the car to run the way I want it then all the previous reading, archives and answers that I’ve gotten.
The car is running GREAT! The cold start/running problem is almost totally gone (by that I mean that it runs fine, but it is just barely noticeably not as snappy as it is once warmed up.) Now I can get to some fine tuning, but for the most part the car is totally drivable without any quirks that I noticed.
Oh, and for those of you that are curious, the part that I left out… I have the car running with 77lb/hr injectors. The big, honking injectors need to be treated somewhat differently during transients (I’m guessing mostly that they’re slower to respond and changes that are proportionately smaller to the total fueling possible are more difficult to control), things like % change for AE and temp changes have to be bigger…. I think that as it sits it would even pass emissions.
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WOW, where did you even get injectors that big that can be driven by the stock board? I thought above a certain flow rate you had to go to low impedance units...
Anyway, you are definately on the right track with adding more fuel. The thing that maybe I missed is -- do you have a dataloger? what are the logs telling you?
throttle transients are taken care of in the AE vs. LV8 and Decay vs coolant. This "pump shot" tuning took me a long time to get right, key is to really dive down into your logs and look at the O2 sensor voltage for different ranges of delta LV8. then you can see exactly how to change both the tables I mentioned. Also, make small changes. I cant tell you how many times I got pissed that the car wasnt accelerating right and I could see on my log that it was going lean, and then I proceeded to HAMMER the values in the tables way to far the other way.
As for adjusting the MAF tables, it just takes lots of long logs. if you log enough you can plot BLM vs MAF in an excell file and see where you need to make changes. The real kicker comes when you notice that BLM varies with all sorts of other things as well (batt voltage most notably). Fortunately there are tables to change all those things as well.
Good luck.
Anyway, you are definately on the right track with adding more fuel. The thing that maybe I missed is -- do you have a dataloger? what are the logs telling you?
throttle transients are taken care of in the AE vs. LV8 and Decay vs coolant. This "pump shot" tuning took me a long time to get right, key is to really dive down into your logs and look at the O2 sensor voltage for different ranges of delta LV8. then you can see exactly how to change both the tables I mentioned. Also, make small changes. I cant tell you how many times I got pissed that the car wasnt accelerating right and I could see on my log that it was going lean, and then I proceeded to HAMMER the values in the tables way to far the other way.
As for adjusting the MAF tables, it just takes lots of long logs. if you log enough you can plot BLM vs MAF in an excell file and see where you need to make changes. The real kicker comes when you notice that BLM varies with all sorts of other things as well (batt voltage most notably). Fortunately there are tables to change all those things as well.
Good luck.
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