Pablo

iTrader: (1)

finally had a whole day to devote to wot tuning

after a few reads I noticed some center electrode edge rounding so i knew i had too much timing even though I thought it would want more (34 degrees total) so i brought it back to 32, saw an improvement

now my questions are about the ring thats supposed to form around the center electrode thats supposed to end just a hair from its tip

Im looking at a plug I pulled at around 5700 rpm where im having some problems, and I see two things that im unsure of, first of all, on the shrouded side, the insulator nose has a touch of tan in a spot

my question about that is this, from what ive read, the insulator nose should be clean, does this mean it should be devoid of this spot im witnessing which clearly shows the shrouded side (its a light tan)

does this mean im a little rich?

Second question, about the ring on the center electrode telling me about spark advance... what im witnessing is on the shrouded side i can see a very defined dark line that extends from the base of the center electrode to near its tip.. but wider than a hair thats for sure, it also doesnt go all the way around its only on the shrouded side.. is this normal to just have it on the shrouded side? and if its wider than a hair or two from the tip, does this mean i should retard the timing some more? That would take me down to 30 deg btw which more than proves the axiom by grumpy "Give the engine what it wants, not what you think it wants"


Right now, if what ive read is correct, and ive understood it correctly, the tan spot means im a little rich, and i could stand to retard the timing just a hair more

btw, ive tried looking down at the base of the insulator but i cant get a good enough look to see a mixture ring, i think ill actually have to cut the plug to see it or get the magnifying glass plug reading tool


any help would be appreciated

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited December 17, 2000).]

Grumpy

It's easier to cut em apart for a while to get a good idea of what the fire band looks like and how it moves around.

On the autolites and the way my bird was running have the fire band about mid way, and light tan was always best.

Your sounding close, you using any timing stuff?. Your close enough that EGT even with plug reading needs some performance measuring.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I was running too hot of a plug (R45s) noticed some blueing of the ground electrode and alot of other nasty lookin signs on it so i dropped back down to R43s, I think these are the right plugs, not having anything bluing or baking out of the center electrode

about the "fire ring" im a little confused

Do you mean the ring that forms deeper down on the porcelain that you say ran best at aroun the middle on your car?


The tan spot is high up on the actual nose of the porcelain (the part stickin out) on one side

and the little line i was talking about was the line on the center electrode, on the actual metal, the side of the center electrode, I read somewhere that the dark line that forms on there tells you about your timing and that if its too low on the center electrode that means your timing is too advanced and that you should aim to just within the hair of the center electrodes end or flat side facing the ground electrode, is this correct? or did i understand it wrong?


You are absolutely right about needing some sort of timing device, like a G tech, its to where I dont really wanna mess with it till i get one for the most part, i do however know that past about 5400 its far off what it should be as evidenced by the gurgling exhaust and the fact that it LABORS to get to 6000 so i wanna get that squared away for now in the meantime while i look for a g tech

anyways thanks for the help grumpy

Pablo

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited December 18, 2000).]

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

ok i just cut the plug (with a handsaw.. primitive yes, out of cutting disks)

geez... it looks perfect to what you described

i don know what to think now although I think it could go leaner but not sure, the mixture ring starts at about the middle and its a light tan but depending on which light you look at it in it can look darker and right now it looks a little bit darker than tan, but the coloring is so faint its hard to tell
to hazard a guess id say its a little rich though because its not a uniform tan if you really get down on it its almost like it has a dusting of darker color as it starts around the middle and fades into a more uniform tan at the bottom

but im talking about splitting hairs here,


Grump, would it be a bad idea to look at a plug from an rpm range that seems to run really well and then use that to compare against the upper rpm range im looking at?

for example, around 3800 rpm the car runs beautifully it just sings and zooms up the rpm band

if i did a cut at 3800 and used that to sorta get a ballpark for 5700 would that be a bad idea cause different rpm ranges like different fueling or would be ok to get myself in the zone?

I must say this plug reading stuff is great If i only knew the nitty gritty about this 7 months ago i would be in a hell of alot better position today in my tune

FastBroker

GUys,

Pablo, I know you don't like scan tools but this is a trick I am using both in the car and on a dyno for spark work on the the TBI PROM I have been working on: I am using the MSD adjustable advance (or retard) that is a plug-in with our OEM distributor. I get the engine operating at a MAP/RPM level and then, while watching the scantool for knock counts, crank up the advance with the MSD piece until I see knock counts. This way I get max advance at said MAP/RPM then I usually subtract 1-2 degrees to be safe. You will be amazed at what I have found in all operating ranges! Anyway, WOT tuning with my method is obviously easier on a dyno because you can hold the RPM easier but it actually does work pretty well in the vehicle, too.


With this work and some PROM burning help, I'm at 245hp now (wanted 250hp!) on a 350 (9.0:1 CR) on an engine dyno, now, with the 194/214, .395"/.442" Edelbrock P/N# 3702 cam, which is VERY mellow. And I tell you, the bottom end of this motor is SICKLY strong seat-of-the pants. Kinda peters-out above 4500 though. When I get this cam "done", ie 250hp, gonna put in a 214/224 SIS cam (Pablo's) but with 1.5's and start all over and try for 300+hp clean.


Happy tuning!!!

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

how are you holding a map/rpm level on a dyno, does it have a brake or something like a mustang dyno? cause i always thought dynojets were just inertia dynos measuring how quickly you got a 2500 lb drum moving

for part throttle one of those MSD ***** would be nice but its not neccesary and nor is the scan tool in my opinion, what i do is find an open road and get into 4th or 5th and hold various tps settings, note the vacuum and rpm, come back, make a chip with the timing retard cranked up, raise the timing in an area, go back out for a spin holding tps i held before in gear I held before, on road i was before (i live near good test roads) and note the vacuum/rpm, if its higher then im good, lower then i gotta pull back etc

the higher load areas are a bit of a pain though
Havent had a chance to really tweak the main spark table yet but its changed alot since before (alot less timing now)

anyways, for WOT, plug cuts imho are the best way by far

FastBroker

I understand your method, Pablo, but I, respectfully, just don't agree with it. Seat of the pants at WOT in my vehicle for spark tuning would be impossible, at least as compared to my method. AND, I KNOW that my numbers are right, not just guesses. I tried your way but then I realized that the engine computer is a tool and it is smarter than we are in knowing when there is knock so I use it. That's what a data stream is for. Anyway, if you try my way, you will get a HUGE increase in mileage AND power, should you decide to try it and take the time to learn. Are you forgetting I saw (still have) your BIN file, Pablo??? Trust me, you need help with your advance curve BADLY, even if you made any changes since then, I'm sure!!! Not to mention your VE tables. Your Block Learn numbers must but be far from 128, IMO, but we'll never know because you don't use a scan tool. I bet you don't even know why you want BLM numbers at 128, but that's neither here nor there.

Yes, a dyno does measure the inertia increase of a rotating mass (or force to resist a restricted fluid pump/etc) WHEN DOING A DYNO RUN to measure torque but a good dyno/dyno-guy can use the "brake" (H2O pump, in my case) to hold an rpm/load level very well. That's how all EFI motors (GM/Ford/etc) are programmed at the factory AND how motors are measured for emmissions purposes by the government. And they use a scan tool to check for knock, too.

[This message has been edited by FastBroker (edited December 20, 2000).]

Grumpy

I'm just so tired of the great dyno debates, that I'll just mention the NASCAR teams have alot more funds then anyone around here, and just look at how Jack Roush spends his time at the track.
You just can't get the same under hood air flow as a car at speed, or load it the same way.
There's been lots of tuning done before ecms, and scanners. I've have, as large of selection of tools as anyone, Scanners, diacom, edge boards data logging, Wide Band O2, and still read the plugs as the final answer.
Wanna see how your tuning is going watch your trap speed.
Any thing less is *best* quess, but some best guesses are better then others.
Personally, I have the confidence to run without dyno time, and have worked at shops where we did have engine dynos, then others where we had chassis dynos, and bottom line is when at the track we still needed to tune.

Pablo mentioned where he is at, and from what he discribes, I'd say, to go any further would have to be at the track. With the best of everything, the bottom line is still at the track. I had my own in car timer, and did 100's of 600' passes, and yet when it came to doing a 1320, still needed to tinker some.

FastBroker

Grumpy, I never said I did not agree with plug cuts. There is a time, place and a person for them. I'm just stating that I have seen Pablos spark curve and know that his method of tuning combined with his experience in tuning have given him a terrible curve. Have him send you his spark table and you'll see what I am talking about.

My point was/is that for simple maximum allowable advance work on a DAILY DRIVER, the data stream is an invaluable tool (to ME) to save A LOT of time driving/burning/replacing/plug-cut/repeat just to make guesses on something when "matter-of-fact" is in your ALDL...

You and I know that preignition at WOT is sometimes hard to "hear" and the damage it causes is cummulative, expensive and can be very-very rapid.

I, also, use plug cuts to verify ALL my final AFR/Spark curves but don't use them to "start" tuning. IMO, plug cuts are for final finishing changes when you are close to optimal settings, not off by 4 degrees and a ton of fuel, as is possible in Pablos case...

EDIT: Wow, Grumpy. I just read an older post (What's the best way to tune my car??) and I quote you: "Tuning hasn't changed in the last 30 years, just read the plugs. A scan tool just makes it a little faster."

Thanks for seeing it my way...

[This message has been edited by FastBroker (edited December 20, 2000).]

Grumpy

Just as an aside, on the table issue, not all look pretty. Like the one in the GN I'm currently running and very pleased with I have 40d jumps in timing form one entry to the next. Been a number of engines what had a cam that woke up at 2,600 rpm that leapt 8d in one step. Then at low rpm with a healthy cam, and depending on converter, they can also, look really strange.
No taking sides on who is doing what and why just mentioning that things can at first look really weird, and be nice.
I just wish I had more of the ol cross fire stuff I had tried, I had some stuff that you would swear wouldn't run, never mind run 13s with.

Seeing it your way? <g>

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

What is your problem man? is your sole purpose to knock on others when they dont agree with you? Who the hell said I was using that timing curve in the bin file i posted awhile back and who are you to say it would work and wouldnt work on my car? for all you know it could work just fine despite looking off (since numbers in the chip mean LITTLE when measured in reality). I hadnt even TOUCHED the timing table on that chip other than to mistakenly add 4 deg. across the board, otherwise it was an aftermarket image, and Ive since started from scratch if you still have a problem with it take it up with your therapist because I dont care

I dont race on dynos, i race on a track, and when im doing plug cuts im not using seat of the pants im using my eyes and they tell you a hell of alot more than a scan tool that samples every 4 seconds or so, or a dmm thats reading an O2 sensor that is just spitting out garbage (My 02 sensor holds about .850 solid all the way up despite the plugs and egt telling me otherwise) None of the numbers the ecm spits back at you are 'real' and none of the numbers in the chip are 'real' either, they are just what the ecm THINKS is real and im sure youd flip at seeing my extended WOT AFR table with numbers that simply couldnt run wot

anyways, this has gone far from the topic that this post was originally intended, if you dont have answers to my questions about reading plugs then dont post responses about other unrelated issues

now back to my original questions, btw grumpy I really appreciate the help

FastBroker

So you guys just cannot admit that I was right, eh??? Oh, well...


So let's race, Pablo! I'll bring my 4wd Jeep Wrangler and beat you! And win the $500 I will bet you, too. And yes, I would drive the Wrangler to Fla to beat you...

I am so sick of you lying to everyone on this board!!!! Why don't you tell everyone about our phone conversation as related to spark/fuel MAPS? You offered to burn me a PROM but after our conversation, I realized that you had NO IDEA of what you were talking about, hence no future conversations... And the BIN of yours I have IS NOT an OEM spark table with 4 degrees added, man!!! Why do you constantly fabricate stuff? Someone has to let these people know that you are just pretending to know how to tune. I will post the BIN on this site, if I have to, to show that you are a liar! Or, why don't you put your website bin address here for everyone to see the BIN for themselves to see that you are lying???


And for the record, Grumpy, just becasue I say someones spark curve is terrible doesn't mean that it cannot have 4 degrees of change from one cell to another. I never said that, you did. Where did that even come from??? Bottom line is that a generic old-style HEI-canister distributor has a better advance curve than Pablo's BIN and that is pretty sad. THAT is what I meant to imply.

I am beginning to think that both of you are 20yrs old or less. If this is true, I apologize for acting like this but I would have been building engines/cars/suspension systems for longer than you have been alive... Maybe that will put things into perspective.


And Grumpy, how can you comare a NASCAR motor distributor to our HEI ECU distributors??? Duh... Any HEI/carb setup is so easy to setup a monkey can do it, after 5 years of practice and racing. Maybe even a 20 year-old can do it??? Let's see, five years, yhat's about 1/4 of the experience I have. Duh... I personally know several Nascar engine tuners as well as Holley and Edelbrock guys (not lying, like PABLO) and they spend WAAAAAAAAAAAY more time on a dyno than you can even imagine. They will dyno run/test engines all week long because all tracks are different and need different torque/vs/rpm characteristics, never mind when restrictor plates are added to the equation... You obviously mad up that NASCAR bs and have NO IDEA of what you are talking about, either... Watch Nascar garage before you make stuff up... The FINAL track-specific changes are made at the track in practice and in Happy Hour and after qualifying. That's about 3-6 hours of track time for practice per week per track. Do you think the team only does 6 hrs of dyno work per week for a dedicated track race??? Wow, what a dufus... They'll beat on their qualifying motor for that long on a dyno for crying out loud... I think Edelbrock has 3 dynos now... Always a motor in one of them... Dynos must suckh, eh? Or, the data they give is false, just like the ECU ALDL data, right??? Duh... Yeah, that ALDL refresh wait of 3-4 seconds is much longer than driving around , pulling a plug, cutting it, putting in another plug, burning a PROM, puting that in, AND THEN STARTING OVER.. Wow, 4 seconds is forever..... Duh...


[This message has been edited by FastBroker (edited December 22, 2000).]

TC602

Why all the arguing? I thought this board was about advice,opinion and discusion about prom burning. It seems to me that all of the above are in this post. If you don't like the opinion or advice why respond? To me all of the replys are valid. I value all the replys I get and thank the members for them. Some replys are useful some not, so what. I just want to hear the members advice and opinions. Sorry if this reply is off topic.
I am just expressing my opinion.

Grumpy

"What I menat to imply", in other words, a lack of communication of YOUR part.

Well, if you've got 20 years experience, come back in ten more and we'll talk, oppps, I'll still have you by 10.
Too bad you don't unserstand what you've read before hitting reply. Yes Nascar teams spend a huge amount in dyno timing, but just a small percentage of that is TUNE-UP work.
They are working on ALot more then timing, and fuel curves.
You ever watch the opitron at work at Comp Cam?. Try and get some time with Scooter, and discuss valve motion for a while.
Any your been doing chips for how long now?
ESQQQQS me, I've had enough laughter for today..

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I think this man needs to be medicated


Did i not say that the spark table on that chip was that of an aftermarket tuner? I think i did


can someone please ban this clown?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

BTW I did not offer to burn anyone a chip, you insisted I give you a call when you first showed up, I call to hear a guy that literally sounds like a used car salesman and is continually contradicting himself as he speaks on the phone a mile a minute not letting anyone else get a word in edge wise, all leading up to trying to have me to burn you a chip from a BIN you would send me (which was in reality the whole purpose of the call, you had allready had other board members call you and you gave them the same pitch) I was reluctant to do so even going so far to say that "You cant burn one chip and expect it to be on target" then the car salesman pitch came in "oh oh no no im just increasing fuel 15% blah blahb blah "

me "uh ok"


Im telling you folks seeing this, this man is crazy

and who said i knew nascar or holley guys? You're a frickin fruitcake man, get help

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited December 22, 2000).]

TRAXION

I am locking this post. Pablo, contact me off list if you would like to have it reopened.

Tim

------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's after installing Hooker LT Headers and reducing weight.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
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