Simple question....

Whenever I see posts that ask for references for people or places for custom chips would YOU like that I lock these posts? Basically, this isn't a store. We are here to learn how to do it ourselves. Yet, a lot of people come here to ask WHERE they can get a custom chip. Should I lock it? Should I delete it? What do YOU want?

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

 

I'll vote for "locking" but not "deleting". If someone is willing to "get involved", then they can e-mail the person directly. In fact, in you "why this thread is being locked message to the poster", you can say "this board is for sharing information and knowledge, but I am leaving the thread alive so if anyone wants to help you, then they can e-mail you directly".

I see the logic of "deleting" the post to, but the "nice guy" in me says, leave it "closed" so someone can respond to it if they wish.

I don't recall if you had a blurb in your "Prom burning 101", but maybe it should have a few links to know companies that do custom eprom burning.

Deleting the post would definitely "get the message" out that requests for people to burn them eproms will not be tolerated, but I doubt it will eliminate them. And then it just makes you look like a "jerk", which you aren't; its just that this board isn't for that purpose.

Maybe we might wish to consider to keep the post alive too? Let's put it to a simple vote of the people. And that would include those people that are looking for a custom eprom too.

I suspect that they "look up" to us for advice as in their minds we are "eprom gurus" (which we are not, well I am not...just a guy who's being doing a lot of analysis and has a lot of curiosity and likes to experiment).

 

I agree. It urks me to see people looking on this board for someone to burn them a chip. Just like it urks me when people ask for TDF files. Get the stuff from people who do it for money not the people who do this becasue they love thier cars!!

Lock the posts!

 

I have no problem helping somebody out that needs a chip. In fact so far... I've done it for one of the members of this board. I believe in helping my fellow thirdgeners and of course helping me offset the price of the equipment. If someone comes in asking where they could buy a chip, I believe THIS is the best place to ask since we're the "experts"! LOL If someone comes in asking for a custom chip to be burned, then why not ? If all the guy wants is maybe someone to change the injector constant or remove a governor setting or something simple like that, there's no reason to turn them down. This is just my opinion of course. I'd say keep the posts open... if the guy is obviously a moron then he'll get the message when nobody replies to his post.

------------------
92 Z28 L98 350
------------------
Ported stock heads, XR270HR-10 cam, TES headers, Crane AFPR, Flowmaster catback, MSD ignition components, #24 SVO injectors, 1LE aluminum driveshaft.
Best ET 13.3@107 mph

Click here to see my car at Truspeed.org
Check out Truspeed
Check out the Bin Archive

 

TDF (and other software) is a completely different issue. That is complete violation of copyright laws. It can bring legal action against Dirk and www.thirdgen.org; and a complete "halt" to this board which none of us want. We don't need another "Napster" with software companies seeking damages.

PS: For those people looking for eproms, it looks like Blade's your man. (Hope Blade likes a lot of e-mail).

On a personal note, for simple eprom changes, I wish there was some way we could co-ordinate this such that any money exchanged could be shared with Dirk and www.thirdgen.org to help finance this web-site. I would be willing to consider helping out in that way for members in Canada.

 

I'm kinda new to this board and prom burning, so here's my .02 worth. If someone needs help with a bin/prom or has questions about getting started....bring it on. But if someone is looking for a "plug and play" solution, I say lock it but do not delete it.

Traxion,lars92RS...I agree with what your are saying. But Blade and Glen91L98GTA do have vaild points. Maybe a "bin archive" could be setup that has basic bins available for download.

This would give a solid point to start from, but still allow someone to taylor the bin to fit their own unique system. If they want a custom chip from the start, tell them to look in the classified board.

------------------
1993 C1500 Indy 500 Edition
1992 TA TPI setup
Stock motor, new one being built now.
www.geocities.com/wsleigh

[This message has been edited by 93ND500 (edited February 09, 2001).]

 

You wanted it, you got it.

This is the PROM section, not the DIY PROM section. We're here to help each other, and some people just don't want to burn their own prom. We (or at least those of you smarter than me) can help by pointing these people in the right direction. We don't lock a TPI section question if someone wants to know the best place to have their manifold ported. Hell, instead of spending effort locking topics, answer my question on ribbon cables.

Finally, thanks for doing the work you do and helping all of us - even the guys like me with dumb questions.

 

Looks to me like for the most part the people posting the "I need a chip burned" posts get ignored anyways. If a thread starts to get out of hand lock it. On the bin archive idea the FTP DIY-EFI site is already there with links available to get there if you go looking - I found it. Also the BINARCHIVE is out there also. Why recreate the wheel when we can use whats already there?

 

Unfortunately, you cannot add more BINS to DIY-EFI (unless you there is a secret handshake that I am not aware of). So Blade's directory does help as an additional "repository" for new BINS that members are willing to share.

 

I haven't update my BIN archive in a while, but if anyone of you see something I don't have I'll be more then glad to add anything you want on there. For a while I was thinkign of adding .ecu files also.

------------------
92 Z28 5.7
------------------
Ported stock heads, XR270HR-10 cam, TES headers
Crane AFPR, Flowmaster catback, MSD ignition
#24 SVO injectors, 1LE aluminum driveshaft.

Best ET 13.3@107 mph

Click here to see my car at Truspeed.org
Check out Truspeed
Check out the Bin Archive

 

I'm for going back to a closed board,
turning into an off the list chip burning forum.
Get back to guys wanting to learn about what they're doing. No commercial chit.
Or split it so the is one commercial site, and then the educational one.
On the educational to gain admission they have to read your stuff 3x as a min., so we just don't rehash things over and over again

 

I say leave the posts about custom chips alone. If noone responds to their question, they will get the idea to search other sources. This board is an exchange of information, it doesn't get that many hits anyways. I don't have a problem with passing around bins for our cars, but not the TDF files and copyrighted software. People should have to pay for it just like I did.

------------------
Best ET 14.413 @95.57 without
pulling valve covers or manifolds.
Also with stock 2.77 rear end!!!

 

I plan on burning my chips as soon as I feel comfortable about it. But if I do have a question and a solution is just a bin away, I think it would be terrible to be shunned for it.

If somebody asks for a custom prom or bin what forum would you turn to? The PROM forum of coarse. Who else would know better.

If somebody helps me with a bin and I offer financial assitance I don't think that is so bad as long as this doesn't become a bin marketplace.

If I have a combo similar/same as somebody on this board and they have a bin that works great then why reinvent the wheel?

I guess some people feel elite when they know or can do something that most people feel they cannot. I hope because somebody can burn his own chips and knows how the software works, he doesn't make it harder for those who do not.

I have noticed a lot of questions are answered very vaquely numerically and without a direct definitive answer (because none can be precise). More like a "you need to adjust your *** table". So maybe a bin swap wouldn't be so bad...like an example that is working for somebodies known combination.

I say leave them open and they should take care of themselves.

James

------------------
1985 Z-28 305 TPI
221,000+ mi., Original Eng.

 

We arent here to sell/give away chips. Thats a different story than giving away the information to do so. If someone here wants to burn a chip for someone, not my concern. But I dont see posts anywhere else saying "Can someone make me a custom injector" or something like that. Its annoying, but if you dont like it, dont read it. Its gonna happen no matter what unless you lock the forum, and I would really hate to see that happen. I say lock it+leave it. Whoever posts stuff like that should be able to deal with the fact its gonna be locked. If it gets out of hand, then I say start deleting them.

 

James, the reason the answer is "you need to adjust xyz table" is because often no one knows the EXACT adjustment necessary. My car can be equiped exactly like yours, BUT what is "optimal" on my car most likely not be on yours. Also, I find most power is generated at "the ragged edge just before you encounter detonation". So my "optimal" bin, may "toast" my motor. Who are you going to blame when this happen? The guy who said "increase the factor to 78 noogies on the XYZ table". But if I say "try adjusting the noogies in the XYZ table, then it is your responsibility".

There is a great expectation gap about eprom burning. There is NO WAY anyone can write an "optimal" eprom with out testing it on your engine. Some probably can write a "very good" eprom that is darn close to "optimal", but not "optimal".

I find it amazing that NO ONE would expect to purchase a carb with pre-set jets and idle mixture, and expect it to perform "optimally" by installing it exactly as it came from the box. Yet they expect the same thing with an eprom.

An "optimal" eprom involves a lot of testing and experimentation. And unfortunately, the people looking for "plug and play" don't understand this. They expect it to be "perfect" right out of the box with no scan data or testing, when the best they can get is a "formula" eprom based on certain mods that tends to run well, but it won't be tweaked to that "ragged edge".

 

I kinda like the idea of splitting into two boards.
how about keeping this one for "burning PROMs", and starting another for "engine management" commercial PROMs, and aftermarket ECMs like the Accel DFI, Speedpro, Holley Commander, etc, and Piggyback systems.
I have different project cars and have use for all these types of information.

------------------

Tracy /AKA IROCKZ4me
'86 IROC-Z Camaro
"Cogito ergo zoom"

• 355 cid
• AFR heads
• Arizona Speed & Marine hydraulic roller cam w/ AFR hydra-rev kit
• modified SLP runners
• TRW forged pistons/ceramic coated
• fully balanced
• Edelbrock headers/ceramic coated
• SLP cat-back
• Paxton supercharger
• Nitrous Express nitrous oxide

My IROC-Z
EFI Performance Club on Yahoo
Club IROC-Z

[This message has been edited by IROCKZ4me (edited February 13, 2001).]

 

Well, let's say I come her looking for a custom PROM to account for all my engine mods. And let's suppose John Smith responds by saying he'll 'burn a chip' for me, and against all improbability 'nails the cal's' with one try. I walk away happy, but I have learned nothing(didn't even make an effort to learn really). Kinda defeats the purpose of this board, doesn't it?

James,

I don't see anyone 'feeling elite' about sharing information on this board. Most, if not all, of the people participating here are still somewhere on the learning curve, and NO-ONE has all the right answers. If answers seem non-specific, there's a good reason for that. Even if we had identical mechanicals, your wants(coolant temp, idle speed) and conditions(altitude, ambient temps) could vary widely from what I used to make my decisions. Therefore, for me(or anyone else) to give you narrow and specific answer's would be careless and foolish. I could give you general guidelines on what works for me, but modifying these guidelines, knowing my wants and conditions, to your own requirements will take research on your part, if you expect good results. As the Sgt Major used to say to me: Effort = Results.

 

My god, the KKK has arrived. Just remember people, not everybody has the B-A-L-L-S to mess with the ECM on their daily driver.
I have no front bumper on my GTA and it doesn't scare me one bit if I crashed and kill myself because of its absence, but I am terrified of the thought of opening up my ECM and burn the crap out of it. Not everybody have the skills to burn a chip and from what I have already read, you people don't even know what to do with the MAF vehicles. If I mess the chip on my MAF ECM, who is gonna help me??
Have a little compassion for those of us who don't know jack. We aint asking for your money, you know?
Rick

 

Where is this BIN repository anyway(whatever that is)??

 

Well, just takes one lawyer, and a serious accident and the whole DIY stuff goes down the chitter.
Anyone that does a friend a favor here is risking the universe as we know it.
It's not just about who wants what, it's about financial exposure.
Hyperkids and folks like that carry tons of insurance just for the occasion when some clown gets stupud.
You want to risk your car house income, on doing a favor, great, just I wouldn't recommend it.

To the new guys, just go in small steps.
It is that simple.
The info is out there, and yes takes some work, but ya should have tried any of this 4 years ago. Then it was work.

Heck, DIY_EFI was almost lost over someone just posting some copy righted info there. While the world looks rosey, a lawyer can realy FUBAR someones universe with $20 filing fee.

 

This kinda stuff is what will get this forum locked. If you WANT to buy a prepackaged HP setup for your car without spending a single minute to figure out what intake would work best or what cam, then by all means call Edelbrock. This is not a business here. We are not Thirdgen.Org PROM Burners, Inc. This is a forum, like the rest of the forums here, to offer advice based on our experience and knowledge. Im sure if you wanted a bin file you could ask for it and would get it. Asking for a chip and wanting to send it back and forth till its right, thats a business deal. I could compare that to sending someone here your mechanical distributor, they adjust the timing curve and send it back, and then you dont like it and want it changed again. You know, there are lots of people that wont tear into a motor. Same deal. I wont do an automatic tranny, Ill send it somewhere and have them do it. I would like to think I have a fair amount of mechanical ability, but thats just something I dont want to tackle. Ive done a couple, but feel safer sending it out. Same deal with a chip, you dont feel comfortable, pay the price to someone and have them do it. This isnt a business here to modify other peoples cars. We dont do valve jobs, porting, PROMs, tranny upgrades, gear changes, whatever. We offer advice to do so. If someone from the board so happens to offer his abilities to help you out, thats his deal. But that is not the purpose of this or any other board here, to offer services. If you dont like it, then maybe you should find another prom board on the net that will accomodate you (Good luck)

 

This crap pisses me off. WHO THE HELL SAID I WANTED TO BUY A CHIP OR THAT SOMEBODY DO A CHIP FOR ME?
This board is a little bit to damn sensitive; maybe you should read my post again. I don't want you or anybody else to do anything for me DAMN IT. I DO appreciate all the help that I have been given on thirgen.org, but I don't need anything from anybody. If you choose to give me advice on any subject, I will forever be grateful, but I don't need anybody to do anything for me. You people talk like if you are gods, and I think you should come back to earth and be a little more realistic and human.
I'm going to AppleBee's now to have dinner, but this discussion is not over.
Hopefully by the time I come back, you have changed your ways just a bit and understand people a little more.
Rick

 

Rick/anybody else who feels like that,
I don't understand why YOU are getting worked up about this. Nobody said the thread was directed towards you. I personally hate seeing everybody and their brother asking about chips instead of reading the damm articles that answers the SAME questions OVER AND OVER again.

I personally am thinking you need to rethink your thoughts and words on this one. Everybody on the board is here to help and if they seem to be too high above you , they just might be. Because i know i feel the same way most of the time about the people on here. I feel really stupid sometimes but i think its great that i can come on here and relay on people for help. Its great.

Just me views on this whole "idea",

Brendan

------------------
1987 IROC-Z L98 350 SuperRam, Edelbrock Performer 6085 Aluminum Heads, LPE RollerCam 219/219, Crane Gold Race 1.6RR, TF 1 pc Moly Pushrods, Underdrive Pulleys, Edelbrock TPI High Flow Base Manifold, Accel 58mm TB, ADS 24#, Crane AFPR, K&N, Edelbrock TES Headers, Catco Hi Flow Cat, 3" Borla Cat-Back, Accel Cap & Rotor, MSD 8.5mm, MSD 6AL Ignition, MSD Blaster 2 Ignition Coil, Hayes Clutch, 1LE Aluminum DS, 94' Z28 Disk Rear, Wilwood Adjustable Proportioning Valve, Torsen Series 3 Posi Carrier, Precision 3.73 Gears, Southside Machine Sub-Frame Connectors, Hotchkis Lower Control Arms, KYB Shocks/Struts, Suspension Techniques Lowering Springs, Polyurethan Bushings all over the place, Moog Upper/Lower Ball joints and Tie Rods ends/Idler Arm,

To see the ROC, Check out the webpage Here

 

Well let me backtrack then to a post of yours:

"Not everybody have the skills to burn a chip and from what I have already read, you people don't even know what to do with the MAF vehicles."

I take offense to that. I am not a god, like you suggest, nor am I a member of the KKK. I do happen to have B-A-L-L-S however. Like you, I am learning. Everyone here is, there is just too much information in there. But to just suggest those of us who feel that people asking to buy proms and people offering to do so isnt what belongs here are members of the KKK, gods, or whatever else you want to term us... well Im glad you got my point now that you know how it feels.

 

Hey guys,

I'm just getting started on EFI tuning, but I regard this board as my single best resource to research and get questions answered. Maybe I'm not qualified to venture an opinion, but that never stopped me before.

Don't overlook the fact that the Prom board is in the same list as the other tech boards, where pretty much everything - question-wise - goes. There is not much to distinguish this as an "advanced" forum nor to discourage those new to thirdgen and this board to avoid soliciting or asking repetitive questions. If you look at the type of questions that get asked - and answered - on the other boards, it's no surprise that people will "hop on" here, ask a quick question, and hop off, figuring e-mail notification lets them know when to come back and see the responses. Maybe a more informative name, like EFI- or PROM- TUNING would reduce these types of hits. How about a more technical description in the tech board list, combined with a header at the top of the page saying not to ask for or advertise chip burning services here. As far as what to do as a moderator, Tim, maybe politely moving the post to another board would not offend anyone too terribly, and would help to educate them that this board is only for "burners & learners". I think most people would respect that if you made it clear - tell them to go to TPI or TBI board. It also requires that the members of this board have discipline and not reply to those questions other than to direct them where to go or ask them to research if the question has been asked before. I think the people that learn enough to ask for a bin file or where to get a part to start with are the people you're encouraging to come here, and hopefully by that point they'll understand the "rules".

 

I see is a big "expectation gap" and a "misunderstanding" of what is involved in eprom burning. The reason some of us more "experienced" prom writers (and I use that term very loosely as I think only Grumpy truly qualifies, closely followed by Traxion) scoff at "aftermark" eproms and "custom/formula" eproms is because WE KNOW that it is impossible to write an "optimal" eprom without a very thorough analysis of your engine.

As I said earlier, to get the most performance, it really involves taking your engine to the "limits". All of us who write our own eproms know whats involved in getting to this point and the risks. We've accepted this the moment we got into eprom burning. Yes, the rewards are great and I encourage people to do it. But they must also understand the risks involved.

I am a very helpful person and I wish I COULD help everyone who would like better eprom. But, they begin to think that we are a "business" with a 100 eproms and carriers that we have at our disposal and mail it to them just like Hypertech, ADS or Jet. We don't. And then when you explain the risks involved, most people are not willing to accept it. It develops "bad feelings" when all you were trying to do was help the person out. So the other alternative is to ignore them, only to see them writing "BTT" everyday, hoping someone will answer them.

Also, a lot of the information requires extensive testing, meticulous notes, and quatifiable data that you can provide others with to verify your findings. It is not that no one knows MAF, its just that more of us SD guys have done this and shared this information. If I had a MAF car, I would be doing the same thing with it.

I personally think this thread has brought a lot of the issues out and cleared the air. I remember the first time I read ALL the information (it looked overwhelming), made my first mods, burnt my first eprom and wondered "what is going to happen to my engine"... will it do anything or if it DOES will it go "BANG"!

After doing this over 50 times, I am very comfortable doing it and I have more about how my engine works than I imagined. I have had the "false SES codes" pop up and quickly learnt how to distinguish a "false SES" from a "real SES". But I will say, that once you begin doing, it really is very rewarding and fun.

 

I agree with Grumpy..this is a forum for "learning" the hows and why a particular engine operates. No two engines are the same,nor will they respond the same. If someone would like a prom made then please understand that many are in this for personal interest, not $$ and that I, we do not know everything..heck I have yet to mod my first prom..and i have read and reread everything from Tim's article to Grumpy's tips and Programming 101. I still don't fully comprehend everything, I will have to work it out one step at a time. As far as not knowing MAF vs SD is apples vs oranges..both are fruit but totally different. My understanding is that SD cars have been more throughly "hacked"than the MAF cars thus more info and experience with them. And just to keep things interesting my personal project also involves changing from a 165 MAF to a 749 SD turbocharged, involving a complete rework of my harness and yes I am scratch building the turbo setup e.g. more work and research.

Raptor...i have no clue as to where you are coming from. Where does the KKK come into this? Not long ago this forum was private, attitude and responses like yours will make it so again..much to the dismay of newbies like myself. So please be tolerant of others..you may not like a response to a particular thread..but be aware most here are not comfortable in giving "concrete" responses, so gather the info and equipment, look inside the "mind" of your car and have fun. Cheers, Robert

------------------
79 Chevy Malibu Cpe
305 TPI/700-R4,
Custom Turbocharged,
ported upper and lower intake,
214,224 duration .450I .465E lift
749ECM,custom eprom,
Website:
www.turbotpi.homestead.com/SATURN5.html

 

Having been in senior managment for many years, I would say that we have "failed" Raptor. We should be encouraging him to overcome his apprehension and get his "feet wet". I would say that most of us were a little "scared/concerned" what was going to happen when we put our "first" DIY eprom and turned the key on.

Was it going to start? Was I about to kill my motor? Was it going to give me an SES code? Did I just give myself one hell of an expensive repair bill? If you DIDN'T think any of those questions the first time we burned our own eprom, I would say that we are either forgetting what it was like, lying, or damn foolish.

Let's face it, the ecm/eprom IS a "mysterious" aluminum box. Think about all the "myths" and "falsehoods" we all heard when we first got our EFI cars. I remember virtually EVERYONE said "well, you can't work on that car", or "there is nothing you can do to modify the engine". We now know this to all be false.

So I say "let's help Raptor better understand and overcome his natural fear to attempt to do something that is scary to 99% of the normal population". We are the "unique" ones. How many of your friends and family do you know that modify their own eproms? Other than the other members of this board, I don't know ANYONE. But, then again, my friends and family all think I am a "little bit different".

 

Wow. This topic REALLY exploded today. I wasn't going to reply to this topic until I had more information but the recent explosion of posts in this topic pushes me to say something.....

I like PROM programming and I think that anyone can learn how to do it so long as they take their time. It is not about the money because if you can afford a custom chip then you can afford to buy the freakin' equipment to start the learning process. Charging significant $$$ for a custom PROM is ludicrous when one can learn to do it themselves. It bothers me when we have individuals who use this board to make money off of other individuals who don't have the ***** to try to attempt PROM programming. Those supplying the 'custom PROM' know this and are more enticed with the freakin' money then by encouraging others to begin the learning process. Furthermore, I get even more pissed off when those individuals who are making money off of those who need the custom PROMs then bring their 'specific' questions on-line and use this forum as a toll-free support number to try to get their questions answered (all to make 'their $$$ custom chip' more appealing to the unsuspecting victim they sold it to). The legal issues then come to mind and I begin to think of the scenarios that Grump mentioned above.

Do I prefer a forum with zero tolerance for those who want to buy or sell a custom chip? Hell yea. But, in all reality, nowhere on this board or in its title does it say that this board is only for learning, growing, and doing it on your own. It was an unspoken thing. When the board opened up that was the theme ... but, it was never stated in the title or the description. So, this was bound to happen sooner or later.

FYI - at this point I am definitely pushing for this board to be very well labeled so that I have the right to delete/lock any and all posts that deviate from learning and move towards buying/selling. I also am pursuing taking the board private again in order to allow the true DIY enthusiasts to have a place to really learn without the burden of the $$$$$$ sited individuals.

If the board stays in its current formation then I will probably resign as moderator. I cannot in good conscience moderate a board where some individuals are making money with the knowledge gained in a DIY trust unless I have the ability through stipulation to delete posts that are in direct opposition to the goal of learning to program on your own. These boards are not for making money. The main thirdgen.org boards have always been about getting help in a DIY arena. All money related questions should always be referred to the classifieds. That is the perfect site for those posts ... parts wanted and parts for sale. Take the buying and selling there.

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

 

Good point Glenn. Quite often, I study the hacks or bins at work, and once in a while someone will see them and ask what it is. When I try to explain what they are looking at, I usually get one of two reactions: a look of complete amazement followed by; "yeah, whatever", or a look of complete bewilderment followed by; "yeah, whatever".

 

shawn, I dont see repetitive questions as a problem. I see alot of the replies to these threads as "Read TRAX's article" or similar, and really thats a good idea. Its usually obvious they came here, didnt read anything, and then ask a question thats all over the place if they had taken a second to look. There really isnt a problem with that to me. Then there are things in the article and elsewhere that are hard to understand. Just trying to get the basics down of how to read your bin off your chip, what hardware you need, how to hook it up, run it, etc. is all kinda overbearing at first. The best thing to do is like anything else, TRY it. My first burner was a POS, couldnt burn chips right for some reason. I tried everything, only got one burn that worked at all. All the others, I would try to fire up the car, and sometimes it would run and sometimes not. When it did, the check engine light was on, and it wasnt running right. Stick a paper clip in the ALDL, no code 12, nothin. Just the light on all the time. It didnt hurt anything on my car at all. I think anyone who is interested should read up on the subject to get a general idea, maybe try one of the editing programs, grab some stock bins, see whats there. Then get a burner, a stock chip from the dealer (its cheap) and pick whatever method you want to read the chip. Get used to what you have to do, then maybe try erasing that chip and reburning it. Change some stuff, do it again. Then go try something and put it in your car and see if that works. Then start playing around with stuff to tune the car. I havent been doing chips long, but at first it was very intimidating. Now I feel totally comforable doing it. Just takes time.

Then there are the other people who just come here to try and get someone to give them a chip, or burn one for them, because they dont want to make the effort to do it themselves. Thats one of the reasons I basically stopped coming to this board for a month or so. If thats how they want to be and they want to modify their car, may I suggest an aftermarket chip burning company or a carburetor. I was in the same position too, and decided to go ahead and give it a shot. Now Im burning my own.

With cars, the best experience is getting your hands dirty. In this case you dont get your hands dirty (I hope not) but you do have to try it out and experiment. After that it will become easier and more understandable.

Glenn, I dont know if its in TRAX's article or anywhere else, but maybe we need to make it more CLEAR that there is no MAGIC chip that is going to make someones car a second faster in the 1/4. Seems like everyone thinks that theres a massive amount of potential there, when in most cases there really isnt. I guess we get to thank Hypertech, Jet, ADS, and all those other marketing organizations for that.

 

I'm sure if you go back and look at the thread, my earlier post changed the tone of this post from a "lock or don't lock" thread to a deeper evaluation of the meaning of this particular forum.

I read the article on PROM burning a week or two ago and learned the basics of what was needed to change the stock prom. It was after I read that article that I realized I was quite capable of leaning and doing it myself. I started cruzing this board and reading topics of which I have a vaque idea of what the are talking about, but read through them anyways...like anybody else who wants to learn. I was exposing myself to the terminology being used and the methods as to which solve a problem. Like what the values in a table truly mean.

For instance, one issue I have yet to be resolved is the data in the tables. The sensors have a range of potential values, and a value in that range has a meaning. That meaning should correlate to a thermodynamic property or physical characteristic. Like when the Temp sensor is at a certain voltage it can be tranlated to a certain temperature using a known formula.

Being a trained mechanical engineer and having a history in thermodynamics and power plant design/theory, I am curious if anyone tries to really figure out what the values in the table mean. Or do they play with the array of values and attemp to find a solution through many iterations? Do the people adjusting the tables understand the math behind the tables? or the TRUE relationships between the properties? Does anybody know?

That is probably my biggest question.

However I now see the problem TRACTION bring up with the exchange of $$$. However most posted question are not about pimping PROMS. In fact a lot of people do not even bother reading or posting on this board. Why? Most people can't even change their own oil, let alone phathom editing a bin, or even spending a couple hundred dollars for equipment they never even seen or heard of before. A PROM is something you buy, not make. Most readers are still on AOL and want to tell people how they beat this guy in a viper with their stock V6 camaro. Well.....maybe not.

Perhaps what I'm most afraid of is that by closing this board to the general public and making it private again puts a bad taste in my mouth. Sure a few stranglers will find their way in here and asked for a prom or ask where is the best place to buy one, but as has been mentioned before the mission statement of this board is "PROM burning". I'm sure TRAXION has seen a million of those posts but I haven't. I would hate to have this board go private and only the elite would have access to it.

Perhaps if the mission statement were redefined than the post that were out of line could be locked or moved to a diferrent forum like any other forum where a post was incorrectly posted. That would be fair.

"DIY PROM burning. No PROMs for sale. No commercial exchange. NOT a referrel service."

I think something like that would pretty much clear up the confusion and give a clear rule for TRAXION to follow on the actions of censorring posts. I think that's really what he wants in the first place. I see nothing wrong with that. I just hate to see this rare forum go private. I strongly dissagree that making this board private would make it better. I think that's like killing an ant with a sledgehammer.


James

------------------
1985 Z-28 305 TPI
221,000+ mi., Original Eng.

 

A couple of points I would like to respond to:

1) Traxion, don't resign. Who would moderate this board? Though Grumpy would be an excellent choice, would he be willing to do it? I would like to think yes (and hopefully get to see a little more of his responses), but I think his answer would be no. And right now, there is no one else more capable than yourself.

I too would like to come up with ANY alternative to making this board private. It just makes it even more difficult for people that may want to peruse it and possible give it a try. I get a lot of e-mail from people saying how they enjoy this board and are just a little shy to get into it. I coax them along and show them that it really isn't rocket science. If you understand engines, it really isn't that hard. It is just getting over that "learing curve" that takes a little time an patience.

With the people I have been talking to, and watching "behind the scenes", I think this board is going to be quite exciting in the next little while. They just are in "learn mode" right now, but hopefully they will feel comfortable in the not to distant future to be into "teach" mode.

That is why I am now trying to find "hidden tables" and testing them to see their effect. I am trying to see if there is something out there that none of us (except probably Grumpy) has ever played with. But whatever you, Grumpy and Dirk decide; I will follow. And if "locking/deleting" is the answer, then let's do it and get back to eprom burning.

2) Max, yes, people with a bone stock engine that think an eprom will add 100 HP should be told up front that it isn't going to happen. The people that will notice the greatest performance increase are those people that have the most poorly tuned engines (from an eprom perspective, not a mechanical perspective...nothing is going to help that except fixing the mechanical problem).

But I do think that even just for the exercise of learning to burn an eprom and learning the interrelationship between the eprom and their motor can be a very enlightening experience. I always knew that my engine was running too rich and I had exhausted all the mechanical means of leaning it (short of using 19# injectors). I pulled a massive amount of fuel out (about 15-20% based on my injector pulse widths @ WOT), and YES I have a quantifiable difference in power.

But others may not experience this difference unless their engine is running rich like mine was. But given the nubmer of people that believe in "cranking up" the fuel pressure on their basically stock engines to get more power; they too would probably be surprised how much they have slowed their cars down with too much fuel.

3) James, we are all learning what those interrelationships are. The best I can tell you from what I have interpreted from the "hacks" is that the data are "factors" that are "crunched" through the GM algorithms. It would be nice to get an INT value and to know EXACTLY how much you have to increse a particular value in a particular table and make the INT hit "128" exactly. I have been attempting to apply some "mathematical relationship" to some of the tables and develop some "rules of thumb". Some I believe I have some nailed down, others I am still working on. Once I have done enough testing to feel confident enough to disclose them, I will post them.

Unfortunately, these "rules of thumb" may only be applicable to a specific eprom/ecm and I suspect many will. I just don't want to make a statement about a way to calculate an adjustment and then have someone blindly follow it and end up toasting their motor.

And lastly, I feel a bit "ripped off" by those people that contribute nothing, take all this information and then use it solely to peddle eproms to others based on the hard work of other people. It wouldn't bother me if they too were "testing, analyzing and disclosing" for all to share. But when they are keeping all their discoveries secret and using everyone elses information....well you can fill in the blank.

 

Every once in a long while, I come across a true gentleman and a person who really and genuinely cares about others (I really don't think I qualify for that title, but I know one when I see them). Glenn, I think I would find little opposition (if any) if I told you that you are one of those very special people, because you really are. Most people on this board misunderstand what I'm trying to say. What I've been trying to do is "SPEAK FOR OTHERS"; for those who are afraid to mess with something so complicated as a ECM. I tell you all once again, I don't need anything from anybody or buy any chip from any of you, ALTHOUGH, I would really appreciate if some of you would help figure out how to do it right. If somebody comes to this board trying to buy a chip, simply tell them that nobody sells anything on these boards and that's the end of it. A much better solution is to tell the guy, "I won't sell you anything, but I can point you in the right direction should you choose to do it yourself", and trust me my friends (hopefully I still have a couple of cyber friends in here), you will satisfy that person as well as yourself. There is no need to alien eat anybody for trying to buy anything. We all started from scratch and I'm positive that most of us would have done anything for some real good help.
Don't take anything as an offense, it will just make you look older and won't fix anything; let's find solutions, not problems.
Rick

------------------
'88 GTA 350
Headers, catback, free mods, Xtreme energy cam, intake pieces and 2100 RPM TQ

13.39@102.50 MPH
1.90 Sec ------- Best 60FT
104.23 MPH -- Best Trap Speed
AIM HIGH!

 

By the way, I do plan on buying me the tools needed for burning PROMs. Not right now though, need to get other stuff fixed first.
Rick

 

I'm really getting excited about this chip thing. I have 2 questions, hopefully somebody can answer:
-I understand that some chips can only be written once, just like some CDs (CD-R) and some can be written more than once (CD-RW); exactly how many times can you write on the same e-prom?
-What's the worst that can happen with a totally messed up chip (bad programing)?; blown engine, bent rods or just heavy knocking and and pinging?
Thanks, Rick

 

James took the words right out of my mouth.

 

I say lock the posts that deal with $$$$.

Also, could we put a link to Tim's FAQ on the top of the PROM Forum so every time you come in, you will see it. Maybe also include a message about the $$$ there also.

This forum has only been around since September, and there is lots of informative and technical information here. I am one of the more silent members who read this section often and don't want to see it removed or become private.

------------------
87 IROC-Z 305 TPI gears, exhaust, converter
14.70 at 94.1 mph
Minirammed 383 for spring

 

Raptor.. yes there are several types of Eproms. The ones that program once are called OTC's, one time copy. They for all purposes have "fuses" inside. Blow the fuse at a certain address to change from a 1 to a 0. You do not want to buy these. "window" Eproms can be erased and reprogrammed by using an ultaviolet light. How many times you can reprogram a Eprom is pot luck. May only work once or a dozen times. But proms are not too expensive..around 5 bucks each.. so its no big deal if you have one crap out.
Happy to hear you are diving in..from what i hear it gets a little addicting..lol, Bob

------------------
79 Chevy Malibu Cpe
305 TPI/700-R4,
Custom Turbocharged,
ported upper and lower intake,
214,224 duration .450I .465E lift
749ECM,custom eprom,
Website:
www.turbotpi.homestead.com/SATURN5.html

 

I have yet to damage anything. Had the car not start, start and not run right, driveable but knocking, all sorts of stuff. Now that I have a decent burner that doesnt screw up every chip I burn, its working out great. The ESC is kind of a failsafe to some extent to prevent any major damage if you are playing the fine line between 'correct' fuel and the lean side, unless you turn off the ESC or take out the knock retard. I dont imagine you would want to do that.

 

Here is my problem. The DIY-ECM/PROM/FI industry is filled with 'Sage on the Stage' weenies. I've seen some VERY pointed questions that are looking for specifics and they aren't getting answered because A) someone doesn't want to be bothered by us mere mortals, B) Someone is going 'man thats a toughie and I don't want to look stupid', C) its safer to go "Geeeeez, you don't know that?" than to answer, D) All of the above. etc., etc..

Everyone says 'READ Tim's article." Ok. Great. I read it. I read it 10 times, I printed it out and took it to bed (much to my wife's consternation). Its about what to buy, and how to plug it in. Thats the baby steps. I know what the IAC, TPS, O2, etc., does but what about all these definitions, What a particular table does (MAP tables for instance or the IAC tables). We need the next step. A lot of people would rather buy a chip simply because it takes an act of Congress to get help (not just this board), but it seems there is nowhere to approach the middle ground. I know its frustrating to you guys, you feel swamped, but its just as hard on us to try and wean ourselves to self-suffiency.

To answer Traxions original question, if someone wants to ask another member to burn him a prom, I'm all for it. Why do I give a fnck if 20.00, 200.00, 2 six packs of beer, or whatever trades hands? I can skip those threads easily. I know Grumpy wants a closed board and I can respect that, but all it does is forment more of the 'have and have not' mentality, in the long run it doesn't alleviate the problem.



------------------
Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato
1996 Impala SS, 383 LT4 (14.65 up here, 13.24 lower)
1984 Firebird, +.060 350 (Vortech Heads, HOT Cam, and schtuff)
1993 Caprice, 5.7 TBI (stock . . . FOR NOW)

"And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? Revenge. The villany you
teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the
instruction."

Shylock in Act III, Scene I of 'Merchant of Venice' by William Shakespeare

 

I couldn't agree more, its not like any of us are charging car-unseen tuning fees of $300 like most custom chip companies. If someone would like to spend a fraction of that to have me do them a chip, then so be it. I would like to get some of my money back out of the equipment too, as well as give some competition to those aftermarket $200+ companies out there.

------------------
1987 Trans Am GTA WS6
-5.7L SuperRam
-TFS Twisted Wedge Heads
-LT4 HOTCAM
-LT1 PM Rods
-380 HP @ 5000 (net)
-442 TQ @ 4100 (net)
-4L60-E Transmission
-LS1 Aluminum Driveshaft
-4.10 SRD

1988 Pontiac Grand Am
-3800 SFI V6
-125-C Trans
-Stock 2.5L converter (stalls at about 3000)
-Stock emissions equipment
Domestic Terrors Car Club Online

 

[This message has been edited by MadMax350 (edited February 15, 2001).]

 

Madmax350, but that is what the "Classifieds" are for. If you want to provide this service to other members, advertise their. If you want to have someone modify your eprom, advertise it there. And if you want to know how to do it yourself, then post it here.

You don't see people requesting others to install their camshafts or other offering to install camshafts for a fee on the Tech Board (though many are qualified mechanics). A post like that would immediately get locked by the Moderators on the Tech Board and told "go to the Classifieds". Why should this board be any different?

The original intent of this board was to be an "exchange of ideas and information to better understand the internal workings of the eprom and to fascilitate modifying it." It was never intended to fascilitate "the purchasing and selling of eproms".

On the original PROM Board (which I was a member btw, but I was in the middle of moving to a new job, so I couldn't participate), the mission statetment was made VERY CLEAR to any member granted access to the Private Board. Any member that requested or offered to "barter" in eproms on that board was quickly told to stop and would be disallowed further access to the board if they continued.

The disadvantage of the Private Forum was that you could only peruse it if you were granted access to it. Thus, a lot of potential "diy eprom writers" were denied the opportunity to get into eprom burning. With the "reorg" of www.thirdgen.org it was decided to "let the general public have access" as it would hopefully bring in more "diy eprom writers", and it has.

But the very fear of it quickly becoming a "bartering forum" is exactly what is happening now. I say, let those who wish to "barter" in eproms either 1) go to the Classifieds or 2) give you your own board and let the true enthusiasts participate in our own Private Board. My only hesitation with a Private Board is that stops any "newbie/wanna-learn" from getting eprom burning as they would not be granted access to a Private Board. That WILL be the end result if people wanting to "buy/sell" eprom burning services DON'T take it to the classifieds.

The real loosers in that will be the "peddlars" because I suspect they will be denied access to a Private Board. One interesting observation though, I've noticed that the "peddlars" seldom share information with anyone, but sure are quick to take information for their own benefit. I wonder why that is?

 

Hey, I offer information to anyone who wants it. I for the most part agree with you in that this is not the area for advertisers. However, have you visited the classifieds section of this site lately? Looks as though it would be hard to find anything. I know they have a search option, but when people put in a search for just custom proms, then it could return a bunch stuff they didn't want. And I don't think there are enough of us on here that would do a chip for someone else to warrant our own seperate forum. This is where I would look if I wanted someone to do a chip for me. It is just so much easier to come here than go to the classifieds and immerse myself in a bunch of for sale stuff.

 

The decision has been made.

The PROM board has been retitled the DIY PROM board. It is still an open board. However, along with the new title comes a clear stipulation of the Board's mission. Please read Dirk's comments at the top left of the MAIN DIY PROM web page in the announcements. Also notice that on the Main list of boards the DIY PROM board clearly specifies the mission statement.

Any and all posts of a buy/sell nature will be deleted or locked without warning. This board is now an official Do-It-Yourself Arena. If you are looking to sell custom PROMs or buy custom PROMs then this may not be the board for you.

ALSO - Please welcome Glenn as Co-Moderator of this board. This board has grown incredibly and definitely needs another moderator. Glenn was a logical choice for those of you who have reviewed his participation on this board. Go Glenn!

This post will be left open for another day. It will be locked within the next 24-48hrs so that we can put this topic to rest.

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

[This message has been edited by TRAXION (edited February 15, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by TRAXION (edited February 15, 2001).]

 

Trax,

Kudo's!!! I think the way you handled this discussion(and yourself) was fair and open, and I think your decision will be a benefit for all of us who come here to learn and help others.

Glenn,

I know from reading your posts and corresponding with you that, Trax made a very good choice in selecting you as "Co-chair".


Congrat's to both of you, and keep up the excellent work!

Andy

 

I think the purpose of this board in now better defined and clearly stated. It should satisfy everybodies needs. I think it is both fair and just.

Good luck. And I look forward to all your prom burning suggestions in the future


James

------------------
1985 Z-28 305 TPI
221,000+ mi., Original Eng.

 

Don't lock it, delete it...It will be taking web space for nothing. Everybody knows what to do and what not to do already. Same for buy/sell posts from now on, just delete them after you tell the person to go to classifieds. Just my suggestion
Rick