88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

several years back I ran across a couple cheap edit programs for the ls1 I think one was even free. what ever happened? they where pretty basic but did all the common stuff swappers need like vats delete, o2 delete speedo adjust so on... tunercat was the only thing I could find under the search I ran which only showed they sold it to jet. jet want's too much money 500.00! for that I might as well go to ls1 edit or efilive

3.8TransAM

Long story short.

All the OBD2 type stuff was in the beginner/freeware stages and available.

Other slaps basically took other peoples work and starting charging for it.

The people that made it freely available basically walked away from sharing it publicly anymore.

This has happened to members of this board on other issues as well.

later
Jeremy

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

I can understand why the people who did all the hard work walked away. I don't blame them one bit.

TrofeoS/C

I have Tunercat and HP Tuners for the LS1's, both are good programs. You can get the Tunercat through Moates with the Roadrunner system.

Scott

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

It is pretty irritating that the freeware stuff becomes pay per tune. Many programs like HP Tuners are woefully incomplete as well. From my experience, it seems like they only include around 10% of whats actually there. Not having it open ended makes it hard to get a complete tuning package.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

I went with efilive. very pricy but I guess I had no choice really. I liked the tunercat stuff and tc was always more than helpful. even Craig Moates is one of the best guys out there! but

#1 I will not give jet anymore money!

#2 even though I would rather give moates and tc my money it was just too much to go with the roadrunner combo for a mostly stock ls1

pisses me off I can't tell you how many times I helped stumped people with stuff and don't charge a thing. and yet those same people would run around on how slick they where and did it all by them selfs

maybe some day it will be open for all again. just wish I still had the freeware program still

scuzz

Wouldn't it be nice to have an OBDII version of Tunerpro RT or Scannerpro?

The_Punisher454

It will happen. Think how long it took for us to get our hands on Tunerpro. It was Years after the target ECM's were replaced with newer types. The same thing will happen with the PCM's. Somebody will release a hack and the floodgates will open. That is of course after they are no longer the current production CPU.

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

I really hate to resurrect a dead and old thread but I'm actually wondering a few things about this...

it seems today you have to "pay to play" in the OBD2 world,
with HPTuners and EFIlive and LS1Edit taking a vast majority of the marketshare when it comes to LS1 scanning and editing.

I'm used to the OBD1 world where you didn't necessarily need the serial/usb converter box in between the cables and there was free software like TunerproRT. I find it hard to believe that there is literally no freeware or DIY project on the internet regarding tuning LS1's PCMs for free. Does anyone know anything at all about finding the OLD freeware that was spoken about in this thread, or any new projects?

I'll spend $500 on the equipment/software suite if I really have to...but I'd love to find a way to build my own cable/converter box and create my own open source software if possible....maybe incorporate things from HPT and EFILive that people like. In this day and age I feel like open source is a big deal and why can't we apply it to this scenario. I've got a friend who is quite good at software and interfaces, I'll work with him in the meantime on a possible software suite, but I might need some info regarding what the "black box" converters actually do.

If you know alot about how the HPT box works or what exactly those converter box's do please pm me! Also pm me if you know anything about any other DIY projects for open source tuning LS1s..or the old freeware!

The_Punisher454

Flashing the PCM through the port to reprogram it is the biggest thing I think. Otherwise I believe you could use tunerpro if you write an xdf.
Years ago I was involved in LS1 tuning at work. What I did was modified an '0411 PCM to use a ziiff socket in place of the soldered on flash chip. This was for development, customers cars had their flash chip desoldered and the read in an eprom programmer. We then burned a calibration and re-soldered the chip. I had it down to under 20 minutes to pull a pcm, crack it open, R&R the chip[ close it back up, re-install in car and drive.

Working directly with the chip is a PITA,but it can be done. I sure am not about to pay per car to tune, no way no how! consequently I haven't done any OBD2 stuff in a LONG time. I'm not even sure if there is a commented disassembly available for LS1's yet?

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

That's pretty interesting about the chips and the '0411 PCM. I am indeed interested in flashing the PCM thru the port as most of today's purchased systems would do. But I also agree in not wanting to pay per car to tune...there's gotta be another way. My friend and I are currently working on the software aspect so hopefully I can have something usable once its done. I'm sure alot of people on here would be interested! Just gotta figure out how to interface with those black box converters and cables now!

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Reflashing is the biggest issue right now. I wrote the XDFs for the engine and manual transmission part of the '411 that covers the 2000/2001 model years. The 2002 are similar, but use a universal OS for all apps., so some of the tables moved around. www.moates.net/projects/0411

I know the guys on delcohacking.com have been working on using the ELM for flashing. Will be slower, but still potentially a good open source program. I havent had the time lately to look into writing an interface for it.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

I have one, its sort of disjointed, though, and hard to follow since I was just using it to make the XDFs. Ill probably release it sometime down the road when I get some more time to play with it.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Im still using this method for my vortec blackbox. Takes about 4-5 minutes to do a reflash. In many ways I like the blackbox OS a lot better since its more intuative than the 411 and easier to tune.

The locations a bit of a problem, though, since it invites passengers and tire changers to fiddle with it.

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

thank you dimented24x7 for the information, I never knew about any of this and it's very fascinating! Well hopefully my project might allow flashing thru the cable like the typical big name tuning suites do right now. I'd love to provide something to the LS1 tuning community like this, it would definitely make everyone's life easier. We'll see! I'll post up in here if I make any headway!

The_Punisher454

Thats the same kinda ziff socket we used on the 0411. Okay for development, but it seems real vulnerable if you leave it there for too long.

I didnt download your 0411 XDF's yet, but I did take a look at the parameter list... crazy! Eventually when I do jump into 0411 tuning I expect that I'll probably be making a super simplified version of the XDF just to keep from geting into information overload. But seriously, when the shop I was working in started reprogramming LS1's we didnt have to change very much at all to get them to run right. They seem to self adjust really well.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Yeah. EMI doesnt seem to be an issue, but one zap of static and its toast. At some point I do want to get the '411 in there instead so it can go behind the dash.

My tuning experience was more of disabling lots of stuff to just get the essentials. Much of whats there either cant be tuned easily, or isnt needed. That was my experience with the vortec black box. It runs real good with the core fueling and spark logic. I did have to add a few things for transient fueling, though, as the blackbox had no compensation for intake port wetting. The first time I drove it the engine would just fall flat on its face when it was cold. The '411 has it, but its set up as a 1st order model of the effect of wall wetting rather than just a set of tables to provide compensation.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Cable is definitely needed. What are you planning on at this point, out of curiosity?

The_Punisher454

Were you running TBI on that setup?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Its SFI, but the edel victor-e intake that I have has the injectors up more towards the middle of the runner, so they spray most of the fuel on the walls. Not an issue when hot, but cold a lot of fuel sticks to the walls on tip-in.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

since this is back up I figured id share I was never able to get my hands on the original freeware DIY tuning for the lsx. (only vag threads could be found with no links... is fine given they are so old the links would be dead anyway)

but since there seems to be some interest in making one the biggest hurdle i see is the interface allowing full eeprom reading and programing. I was thinking this one http://www.aldlcable.com/ may have the ability to allow a tuning interface. plus the scan tool is already there for logging

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Since its based on the ELM-327, it probably could be made to work. Basically what I have in mind is just a stand-alone interface that allows the uploading and downloading of flash segments. The intel flash chip itself is surprisingly easy to use, so internally its not much work on the PCM side. The main issue is actually handling the interface, and writing the software to do the OBD comm.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

if I understand correctly it would be very similar to the winflash program for tunercat.... it just reads the pcm and and writes just like the older obd 1 system used a prom reader

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

hmmm I'm gonna present a friend of mine with some ideas and see if he can come up with something as well. Hes very good with these sort of things from a programming/computer aspect. Hopefully some others with experience find this thread and chime in as well, it's been great so far

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Basically. I dont think it needs to be anything really complicated. Basically the program should allow the address spans for each block to be defined so the appropriate part of the bin can be selected for uploading. The main driving factor behind the need to define the sections is the fact that the flash chip can only be erased in blocks. The flash chip is only guaranteed for 1000 flash cycles, so Im also thinking of including anti-wear logic as well. Bits can only be changed from a 1 to a 0 (1 to 1 is allowed, but not actually performed). Trying to go from 0 to 1 is not possible, and results in an error. If no 0's need to be changed to 1's, then the flash chip can be programmed w/o a reflash. Saves time, and also limits wear and tear.

Kinda surprising theyre only good for a thousand cycles, but I guess that was the trade-off for the rigorous operating requirements. From what Ive seen, this does rear its ugly head in the portion of the chip thats used by the PCM to store data after shut-down. The few intel pulls that Ive messed with seem to have bad bits in that area from use. I think AMD's chip is good for a lot more cycles if someones a tune-a-haulic and constantly makes changes. Have to check if its pin for pin compatible, though.

The other features will be things like flash resume if the connection is lost, but the PCM is still in the reflash mode, and write protection for the OS sector to prevent an unintentional erase. The OS should be accessible as well, but only if its being done deliberately to update or change something in the OS.

Mangus

Once the reading/flashing stuff is figured out, I (or someone with some programming experience) can write a TunerPro v5 plug-in to do that work, and that should round out what's needed for basic tuning using TunerPro.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

That sounds good. Im going to try and get an ELM bread-boarded when I get some time so I can experiment with it. Probably not writing an interface, but messing with some basic stuff like requesting security access and uploading/downloading to see how it acts.

y5mgisi

You guys are fun to "listen" to.

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

.....well unfortunately this is the pace things tend to have when you're not getting payed to develop them.

Anywho, here is a pic of things I've recently acquired from a friend:


I'll be replicating some of the cables and building them myself so I can return these ASAP. There are a couple level shift devices, UART/CAN-Bus items, a few power supplies for bench testing the PCM. An older HP tuners *black box* which I'm particularly interested in....and a blue side LS1 PCM connector rigged with the power/ground/signal wires required to read/write data...since we don't care about anything else on a bench setup. This way I can test everything with my laptop in the comfort of my house instead of the car lol.
The most interesting item is the VSI-Class2 GM OEM box. I believe that is the J1850 OBD2 standard to Serial, with the converter box. You may see some of those boxes on ebay once in a while, but they are typically not found outside of GM's engineering walls from what I understand. They were often used at the proving grounds with the engineering software to program PCMs....its a much more ugly interface than HP tuners or EFI Live.

Hopefully this weekend I can get the rig entirely set up and start working. A close coworker of mine was an engineer at GM for ~15 years and has extensive knowledge of the LS1 PCM. We think the toughest part to figure out will be the seed/key relationship that the "black box" and the PCM have. Using the GM tool first to determine how it writes to the flash chip using factory software will allow us to see what the software calls out for and what it receives in return from the PCM. The HP tuners "box" works in much the same way as the OEM tool from GM's engineers....so if someone at HP can do it...why not us.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

what is the j2534 then? I see this thrown around a bit in the obd2 stuff when I was looking

never mind, did some more digging and I see this is the standard which includes can communications.

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

I believe that is the later protocol standard for CAN based systems, and the most recent standard protocol I think is GM-LAN.

ch@0s

Guys I dont know much about tuning I ran across this thread beacuse I was looking for free tuning software to learn with. I just dropped a LSx in my 91 Corvette.

This may be way out there.. but what about using something like this device I just bought for $44 as an interface between the software and the PCM.

OBDLINK SX It came with OBDwiz the program is very basic but the device works great. Just trowing it out there.

The_Punisher454

I have one of these as well, bought it a few months ago when my older OBD2 scanner died. The interesting thing about this one is that it uses a newer processor than the ELM327 (although it is supposed to be compatible). this happens to be the same processor that the guys at delcohacking have been working with to get diy programing working. Aparently the ELM could only send 8 bit packets, while this one can upload 1K packets. Or something to that effect.

EagleMark

Or you could buy an AVT-852 box and cable, then it would be up to software and that's pretty close if not working on DelcoHacking... IIRC the XDF and ADX is already done...

The AVT-852 box sales are restricted for private sales from manufacturer, but I'm sure TunerPro qaulifies and could remedy that?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The AVT would be the easiest thing, but someone would need to be qualified as a reseller to purchase as far as I know. Im thinking of looking into getting one, or maybe see if theyd be interested in letting me evaluate a unit and then sell them on a small scale once I've made a basic interface. Really thats the last thing thats needed. Just haven't had a lot of time in the past few months to work on it. Been working 10-12 hour days, and with 2 hours of commuting each day, there's not much time left for anything else but work.

Its certainly possible to develop a complete interface within the community here, but the time needed to handle all of the OBD hardware level stuff could get pretty time consuming for a developer.

helo

bump..

All the talk of delcohacking, who was working on flashing with ELM-compatible cables?? Ant has done a fair bit of tinkering, but he got himself an AVT to work with. Is there someone else I haven't come across??

I'm on a bunch of forums and threads that have anything to do with diy 0411. It seems like nobody is further along than a year ago... my JY 4.8 still sits in a barn just begging to be run.

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

Unfortunately I haven't been able to tinker much recently due to work obligations. However, I currently use the GM OEM software from their proving grounds division, they are engineering tools. I can scan/log and pull down, modify, and re-upload calibrations into the PCM for free. I've done it multiple times with my LS1 and it works fine. It's very barebones and not pretty on the eyes lol....thats where a GUI like HPtuners comes in handy

With this software there is actually a way to modify the block within the calibration that contains your PCMs VIN....once you've done that I've heard you can change PCM vins to match that of a "payed for" Hptuners vin on someones HP box....and therefor tune unlimited vehicles/pcms by tricking the HP box into thinking its always the same car. Of course I'm sure this voids some sort of agreement between HP and the box owner(lawsuit?)...but people suspect they "mate" your PCM to the HP box with a unique code thats just a result of a function inputting your VIN.

Recently(with my coworker) I went thru some of the basics of development that GM electrical engineers went through to develop the control system and capabilities of the LS1/3800 PCMs. I have reference guides and other information regarding the exact commands and J1850/GM Class 2 standard communication language for pulling down CALs and re-programming CALs from the PCM. Unfortunately my method is from the GM factory and they used to flash the ENTIRE memory block with a whole new CAL, so it took a few minutes to flash....where-as today's HPtuners can pick variables and bits and change them quickly on the fly or even real-time tune....I don't have that capability.

I believe I've got the tools/information necessary to help anyone working on a project, as I should be able to get the necessary commands for programming/erasing. Secondly, i have the Seed/key information which was the linchpin for a lot of these DIY projects years ago. I currently have the seed/key relationship for all Warren99 PCMs(LS1), Flint97 and 98(3800) vintage as well which basically lets you authenticate yourself to the PCM before issuing commands.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Ditto on work... I signed on with an oil and gas exploration company a year ago, working as an engineer for their division that makes nuclear detectors for wireline and measuring while drilling. Cool job, but I've been basically working 50-60 hour weeks all last year and this year. That and they sent me all over the country on travel. Car sat languishing in the garage all summer without even being touched.

Work is lightening up a bit, so I've been getting back into messing with the DIY OBD-II/flashing. I picked up an AVT-852, and Im hoping to write a basic flash interface that will allow unlocking and uploading flash sectors edited with TP RT.

I have all the internal CPU32 software needed for communicating with the PCM and interfacing/reflashing the intel chip that I reversed from the LS1 PCM. After I clean it up a bit, I can post it for people to work with. Its pretty much fully commented, so it can be used to construct a kernal that will run in the PCM.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Ok, here are the routines that I got from the LS1 PCM. The PCM uses the flash chip as basically an EEProm. These are needed to make the kernal that resides in the PCM, which is pretty much the hardest part. The routines have all the code needed to enable, erase, and reflash the Intel chip. They also have some good example code for how to handle the DLC to send and recieve data over the OBD-II data port.

antuss

The pcm needs 4x speed to load the kernal that resides on the pcm. Thus elm/stn/every other device that doesnt support 4x is no good. Thus far the AVT is the best option. Im really surprised the other cable makers arnt rushing to get this support in to get the 0411 market as soon as it opens up!

Vins are easy enough to rewrite via a proper API in the pcm, but there is also a hardware serial number which the same API rejects changes to. Thats not to say its impossible, but I wont be going there as my plan is to create a legal flashing tool that can read and write bins, so we can use tunerpro and the adx/xdf files that already exist (and make more).

AFAIK the HPT realtime stuff doesnt rewrite parts of the flash, it copies a couple of the most needed tables to ram on bootup, and runs from and saves edits to ram. Then you read it back to the pc when your done, and when the pcm is powered down changes are lost (but are still on the pc). Then you do a full flash process to save the new tables permanently.

antuss

I have just released the first version of my tool. It has its own thread here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...lash-tool.html

y5mgisi

Looks exciting!

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

I'll check it out when I have a chance too!

antuss

cool, thanks

Cole Curtis

Any updates on this? I would love to be able to just get rid of my vats for free... haha

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...e-reflash.html

I used my work on the LS1 PCM to develop the tool. It only works on the L31 black box for now. Reason being is I had a socketed black box PCM with a failing socket, so I wanted to switch over to a PCM and have a flash tool ASAP so I could use my car. Since I based it off of the LS1 PCM, it shouldn't be too hard to go back (forward?) to make it work for both. Just need some time to patch it into the app.

cliffno350

I went ahead and got a obd2 sx http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61IL%2BgRxuwL._SL1000_.jpg
And see what goes and see what goes here too

The_Punisher454

Dimented24x7 has released his '0411 compatible programming utility. the current version works with the 512k PCM's and there is talk that the 1Mb PCM's are the next target.
So right now you can tune and burn using tunerpro and dimented24x7's utility plus an AVT cable (something like $250.00).

check this thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...e-reflash.html

Marvin