AC

iTrader: (3)

I think I've narrowed my no start issues down to my injectors not firing. The reason it started the other night was because I douched my intake / tb with carb cleaner Now that I tried the "normal" starting method I used my test light and the injector connector stayed lit constant (no blink) when I tried to start. I've repinned my harness with C11->C12 / C12->C11 / D6->C13. One question I have is if D6 is a injector ground then why don't I have to also repin D7 (injector ground??). The only other issue I think it could be is my rear cylinder head grounds (PS & DS) but why would EVERYTHING else work fine if those grounds were part of my no start dilemna?

My 730 is repinned to run as a 749. I'm currently using the $59 mask. I followed the instructions in the tech article here for a 730 to 749 swap:
730 ECM 749 ECM
A8 connect to A9 (ALDL data) not necessary
C1 connect to B12 (VSS for cruise)
C11 connect to C12 (Injectors 1,3,5,7)
C12 connect to C11 (Injectors 2,4,6,8)
D6 connect to C13 (Injector ground)
E3 connect to E4 (IAC coil A high)
E4 connect to E3 (IAC coil A low)
E5 connect to E6 (IAC coil B high)
E6 connect to E5 (IAC coil B low)
F1 connect to F4 (shift light) for manual trans
F2 connect to disconnect (AIR pump solenoid)
F6 connect to F4 (TCC) for automatic trans

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Not knowing what you are re-pinning from, the 730 needs D1, D6 & D7, & A12 grounded. (E15 is the o2 sensor ground)
C11 & C12 are internally the same driver so it doesn't make a difference to reverse them.
The C13 reference is for the "Q2" second injector driver in the 749 but it is not installed on the 730 so move that wire back to D6 and ground it good along with D7.
HTH

Cobra289

Hi,
I agree with the advice of JP the C13 is not used at the 730.
D6 and D7 are ECM grounds, the injectors grounds are the C11 and 12.

You ask why all the other things works?
Electricity behaviors at a very estrange matters, if it doesn't find a earth track it will use the + track to get rid of the energy. So it is possible that your high beam start to blink when you put the indicator, just because you have a bad earth.

The ALDL has also a ground that is the pin A and is connected to the ECM pin E12.

Regards,
Cobra289

AC

iTrader: (3)

Junkcltr had posted this awhile ago. Can someone confirm I do not have to repin my injectors or my IAC?? Everything I've ever see says I had to.

"Been there done that. DO NOT rewire your 730 ECM IAC pins. They are wired properly for the 749 ECM AS IS.

If using stock TPI injectors, DO NOT rewire the injector wires.

Overall, there is only like 3 or 4 wires to move for the 730 ECM to 749 ECM conversion.

EDIT: from memory the 749 has an output driver missing so the TCC is lost. You need to verify that. For what it is worth, I ran both $58 (Sy/Ty) and the $8D (Camaro SD) code in the 730 ECM wired as a stock 730 ECM for a while switching between the two WITHOUT re-wiring. The IAC re-wire thing is a myth and the injector wiring change is ONLY for Peak&Hold (non-TPI) injectors. Good luck.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Are you running a 730 or a 749?
What did this harness start as?

Going back to the $58 thread

AC

iTrader: (3)

JP86SS, My car started out as a 730 ecm and harness. I want to go to repin my 730 to act like a 749 so I can use the $59 mask. I've swapped my IAC, C11&C12 of my injectors and D6 to C13 according to the tech articles. My original question was why would on D6 move and not also D7 because that seems to be an injector ground also. Now the question is simply how the **** am I supposed to have my 730 repinned

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Going from hardware, D6 and D7 are the injector grounds on the 730.
No matter what, they must be used.
I don't see where C13 comes into play on a 730.
The code can dictate what ground path is opened/closed by the hardware devices, the code cannot move the physical grounding path.
From what I'm seeing C13 is the wired path on the 749. It is wired to D6 & D7 on the 730.
I'm not running $58 or $59 so I might be missing something.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Take at look at the Ludis ECM schematics for the injector gound paths. The hardware is fixed for the injectors and code has NO affect on that. If running saturated, then leave them as in on th 730 ECM. People tend to get confused about the 749 ECM and associate it with P&H injs. from the Sunbird.

IAC, it is a stepper motor. You can leave the wires as is or swap them. Being a stepper motor it will work the same assuming you swapped them correctly. If it is the wrong way then you will idle very high because the ECM will open the IAC at idle instead of closing it. I played with this for quite a while on the bench to find that the info started with a misunderstanding on what a stepper motor is/does.

Move on to the $59 code from the start. The $58 code is aweful....not worth reading or using. It reminds me of 80's TBI code. No offense to 80's TBI code users.

JP86SS,
I don't spend much time at DIY PROM much anymore........but I read the thread on the latest SAUP_V4. Both you and Z69 do great work. I am very happy to see you two still doing DIY work and putting it out there for others to use.

AC

iTrader: (3)

JP86SS / junkcltr, I'll try and just put my pins back to the stock 730 locations. What I understood is the $59 code I'm using has outputs that go to different pins than the 730 (ie, $59 will output injector signals for odd cylinders on C12 and not C11 as the 730 would). Am I confused? Anyway, I'll try to repin back to original 730 and give you an update. Thank you for the thought provoking responses so far.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You may wish to ground both D6 and C13 if it makes you feel better. D1 is the main ecm ground if I recall, and I think D7 should be grounded as well.

The injectors should be switched if using a '749 ECM, 1-3-5-7 should be on C12,
2-4-6-8 on C11.

On '730 ECM both lines are wired together so you get batch fire of all 8.

Iac needs to be swapped around.

I never tried using the $59 mask, just $58. I'd see if it fires in $58 first, then tinker with the new stuff.

-- Joe

AC

iTrader: (3)

Anesthes, thanks for the input. I'm still using my 730 ECM, but am trying to repin it so I can use the $59 code. I'm actually going to put the pins back to stock locations and try an stock AUJP 8D bin to get it to atleast rumble, sputter, fart, make some sort of noise that lets me know all is good. I've replaced my ignition control module, cap, rotor, coil and can get it to fire up with carb cleaner in the throttle body. I say fire up but it's really a "flare up" not lasting more than 2 seconds. Also, I used a test light grounded to my chassis and pin probed C11 on the ECM. I didn't see a literal blinking but rather a pulsing of the light, dim,bright,dim,bright, etc while cranking.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Both injector drivers on the 749 are fired at the same time (batch fire) with the $58 code and Sy/Ty MEMCAL. You gain nothing by swapping wires. All it does is confuse people.

Explain why that is true. If you swapped them as stated on posts here at TGO then you did the equivalent of rotating a circle 360* which puts at the same point you started at. Did you ever try leaving the wires as is before deciding that they needed to be swapped? All it takes is messing up moving two wires and the IAC will not work as intended. I think the big confusion is IAC wire colors.
----------
Do what you wrote above. Put the wires back to stock Camaro pins, then install the AUJP bin and start and verify it runs properly. Then take the chip out and re-program it using the $58 or $59 code. Start it up and go from there.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I wired them as the schematic says, by running each bank on the appropriate circuit as on the schematic. Leaving it 'alone' is wrong.

Again, I wired them up the way the SCHEMATIC says to. Each of the 4 wires going to the appropriate prong on the IAC socket. Because, that is the correct way to do it. I've done this swap on numerous harnesses, and I did it properly each way.


The the 'right way' then theres the 'it worked for me' way. I'd rather do it based on the schematics released by GM, which is the right way.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Leaving it alone is using the injector drivers as used with the 730 ECM. There is no wrong here with saturated injectors. I have traced 730 ECMs and 749 ECMs. You are confusing how injector drivers work and why the 749 has two drivers inside of it. Funny, you have no worries about running 8 sat. inj. off of one driver with the 730 ECM, but it bothers you for some reason doing this with the 749 with the exact same inj. driver chip inside of it.
The only thing 'wrong' is what people know about the 749 ECM inj. ckts.

Blind faith is fine. Like I said......you rotated a circle 360 degrees. You could have just left it alone. Correct according to what? Take a look at the code and the IAC operation. I am sure it worked numerous times before, but it was a waste of time and possibly could have introduced a wiring error. It would have been more correct to leave it alone.

The "worked for me" way just like you stated above......"I've done this swap numer..."
Just like GMs right way of updating code due to bugs? That is why there are ECM/PCM updates. You don't think that they make schematic mistakes also. Again, blind faith. If GM is the 'right way' even when it is wrong.........then you must have a lot of faith in the designers and documentation people.

Anyway, good luck with the build AC.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Did you ever check to see if the TPI IAC is labeled the same way as the Sy/Ty IAC. Hhhhmmm, maybe that is why the schematic is different.............

If that is true, then you believing the schematic would be correct for the appropriate parts for a Sy/Ty and not a TPI. This would make you wrong reading the 'correct schematic'.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Same part # IAC = same wiring.

Anyhow. I'm not gonna argue this. Blind faith may it be, but I follow the schematic.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The IAC will rotate in the same direction when wired as you have done it or using the stock 730 ECM wiring. If you reverse just one of the IAC A or B coils it will reverse the direction. The schematics differ by BOTH coils being reversed. Therefore, an IAC direction reversal is not done. It is a 360 degree phase shift which is also a 0 degree phase shift.

749 ECM with saturated injectors can be wired as you stated according to the Sy/Ty schematic or as stock 730 ECM TPI. 749 ECM with P&H injectors are another story. Wiring must be done as shown in the Sunbird schematic.

There is nothing to argue. Your schematic way or what I have stated will work properly as designed by GM. Both are correct.
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The 749 ECM with an AUJP MEMCAL in it with $58 code with fire both 749 injector drivers at the same time. There is no odd or even bank firing. It is batch (all 8) injectors firing at once just like your 730 ECM.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I don't think Anesthes realizes you are using a 730 ECM with the AUJP MEMCAL and $58 code in it. He is talking about wiring an actual 749 ECM for saturated injectors using a Sy/Ty schematic. Your 730 ECM doesn't have the second injector driver he is talking about hooking wires to.

Anyway, leave the IAC wiring and the injector wiring as stock 730 ECM.

Only change the following if you need to:
C1 connect to B12 (VSS for cruise)
F1 connect to F4 (shift light) for manual trans
F2 connect to disconnect (AIR pump solenoid)
F6 connect to F4 (TCC) for automatic trans

EDIT: You are NOT doing a 730 ECM to 749 ECM swap. You are doing a 730 ECM re-pin to $58 code. This is why you need to leave the injector wiring as stock 730 ECM. The IAC not needing any pins moved stands for both the 749 and 730 ECM.

AC

iTrader: (3)

Junkcltr, THANK YOU. That was the answer of clarity I was hoping for. All, please accept my apology if my numerous posts in this thread seemed like banter or confused you.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

You're welcome. Post later on and let everyone know how it worked out.

Don't forget to install a 1-bar map sensor when you start it with the $8D code.
Don't forget to install a 2-bar map sensor when you start it with the $58 code.
It will run bad or might not start with the wrong MAP sensor for code $xx.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Or, with the $58 code un-set the 2-bar MAP option bit. And leave the 1-bar MAP in place.

Once done testing and wish to use the $58 code with boost, set the 2-bar MAP option bit and install the 2-bar sensor.

RBob.

AC

iTrader: (3)

All, well I'm still scratching my head. I reverted back to my stock memcal and stock 730 pin / wiring tonight. Switched my 3 bar MAP to a 1 bar (I have 1,2,3 bar maps). I still didn't get fuel. I double checked my wiring per my GM 91 service manual and it was good. My grounds on the DS & PS heads are good. I've replaced in addtion to my profile the ignition module, rotor, cap and wires (possible my Mototron 60# injectors form Lingenfelter are bad?) . I know my engine will fire up if I douche the TB with carb cleaner and therefore belive my timing and distributor are good. I've replaced EVERYTHING mechanical (I mean everything, read my profile) excpet my dizzy. I basically a new car minus interior. I used scannerpro tonight with the 8D.adx it comes with and got: a code 12,15,21,23 (no ref pulses "duh!!", CTS low, TPS High, MAT low). The oddest thing was I went to the dashboard and saw my vehicle speed and some other values reported #'s!!! (vehicle speed was @ 30!!. Granted I'd love to f&&kin idle right now, let alone actually move! Should I move this post to another forum??? I'm just at a loss. 3 years to get this far and have something simple F me up.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Do you have a spare '730 lying around?

-- Joe

AC

iTrader: (3)

anesths, no...but I've got one I'm watching on *bay that ends in 2 days. I'm thinking also I might have fried the ECM somehow.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well. If you wanna take a drive up here i'll lend you one. Or if that one your watching is cheap you can try that.

When you crank, do you see ref pulses in the scanner? Could be a bad dizzy, or a bad ECM.

-- Joe

AC

iTrader: (3)

anesths, just to be clear you mean.... did scannerpro report any BPW? I've attached the files I used to tune a datalog of my last attempt at starting.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Is it possible that you moved the TPS ground reference and caused the CTS low and MAT low, and the TPS now high?

Did you unplug the CTS and MAT connectors and see if things changed on the ALDL?

That speedo thing is very strange.

1) The bin sounds OK because it is reporting via the ALDL (stock AUJP right?)
2) Does the fuel pump prime when you first turn the key on?
3) Do you have fuel pressure at the fuel rails?
4) Disconnect one fuel injector electrical plug and connect another free hanging injector to the electrical plug. Have some crank the engine and feel if it is clicking (opening/closing).

If it starts with the TB squirted then it is sparking the plugs. This goes against no DRP. Sure you have a AUJP bin in that MEMCAL and a good ADX (???) file. Maybe give the $8D ADS and Tunerpro RT a try first.

EDIT: For the dizzy test. First check that pins C8, D8, C7, D9 are the correct wire color at the ECM connector. That checks that you didn't move them by accident. If the are correct then pull the dizzy cap and see which plug the rotor is pointing at. Then install the cap and pull that spark plug it was pointing at and connect a wire from the plug threads to ground. MAKE SURE the ground is good. Then loosen the dizzy bolt and turn the key on without cranking. Next spin the dizzy back and fourth by hand past were the rotor was pointing. You should see the spark plug sparking if the module and ECM are good, and wired correctly.

Maybe your DRP wire is connected to the VSS pin and that is why it sees MPH. Or the ADX file is incorrect.

The more I look at the ECM pinout the more I think you have a wire or two in the wrong position of the connector. Best thing to do is take a break from it for a while and check the ECM connector pins and wire color later on.

Let's see:
30MPH on the ALDL
30MPH*4000PPM = 120,000 Pulses/hour
120,000 pulses/hour / 60 min/hour = 2,000 pulses/min
Assuming this is a V8 with 4 pulses per crank rev
2,000 / 4 = 500 RPM
It seems an engine cranking at 500 RPM with the DRP signal to VSS would show 30 MPH
I would be surprised if the engine cranks over at 500 RPM.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

If he pulled that off, which is very possible, than he must have been looking at the connectors from the wrong way or something when he re-pinned them.

AC: Do you need a scan of the schematic with color codes or do you have a FSM? I have a '92 FSM, assuming '91 uses the same colors - but it has all the circuit testing procedures, ohm/voltage values, etc. I could probably scan the whole section if you need it.

-- Joe

AC

iTrader: (3)

Anesthes / junkcltr, I actually do have a factory service manual for my 91 (the GM one, not chiltons or haynes. When I took this car off the road 3 years ago everything worked like it should. The only pins I had moved during that time were 7 pins like I showed in my first post. I moved the IAC and injector wires. As of last night I repinned back to the stock locations per my manual and double checked each location to the color and location noted in the manual. All seems good. I'll perform the dizzy test when I get back. I'm away until late Saturday after tonight. If the dizzy tests good I'll try and grab another data log. Something I did just think of though. My TKO600 came with an autometer VSS sensor. The sensor has 3 leads, a +, ground and pickup lead. The pickup lead is supposed to go to the harness. I have a purple and yellow and I hooked mine to the yellow.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Do the fuel test I described earlier.
Unplug the CTS, MAT, and post the TPS volts from the datalog.

That Autometer VSS sounds like an active sensor, not like a magnetic.
It could have an output that sits around 0 volts and with enough noise
on it could trigger the ECM zero-crossing-detector (ZCD) for the magnetic VSS
circuit which you have it plugged in to. What is the part number for it?
You could try unplugging that and see if the MPH goes to zero.

Are you sure that ScannerPro ADX file is correct? I know the TunerPro ADS is correct. I would work with that before using something that is quite new.

EDIT: If that Autometer VSS is part number 5291 then it is a Hall effect sensor (0 volts to X volts) and not a magnetic sensor. It could be triggering the ZCD at the input and causing the MPH to not be zero. This page will show the difference in the hall effect and magnetic (inductive) signals: http://www.picotech.com/auto/wavefor...ft_sensor.html
The first wave is a Hall effect, the next is a magnetic. Notice the first wave goes 0 to Vbattery and the magnetic goes negative to positive (crosses zero).

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Looking at the $8D bin you posted, VATS is enabled.
You will get no fuel unless a proper signal is obtained from the VATS module.
Disable it by unchecking L8016, bit 4.
L824B, bit 1 will remove the error code from showing so you can disable that as well.
Also, the log from scannerpro won't work unless you use the same definition to view it (If older version was used) So I couldn't see it to help.
Jp

AC

iTrader: (3)

Well, I've disconnected my CTS and doublechecked my harness to ecu wiring. The harness is 100% per my factory service manual. I did burn a new chip using the super aujp v3 bin and disabled VATS. The values I recorded using tunerpro RT looked a bit better but still no start. My rotor was pointing at #8 so I put the cap back on, put a plug into #8 boot and grounded the thread to my engine block I produced no spark when I rotated the dizzy but I did continually trigger the fuel pump and its relay. I don't understand though why I'd get the engine to fire over for a few seconds with carb cleaner if this test didn't produce spark on #8? You can see my brief log file using the latest tunerpro RT install and the superaujpv3 bin file. I turned the key approx 4 seconds 2 times during that log file.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The plug might not have sparked because the rotor was not close enough to the cap or the ground wasn't that good. The fuel pump priming means that the ECM was seeing a DRP via the pick-up and module. I would say you have spark and the dizzy is OK. This checks with it starting on carb cleaner.

It sounds like you also have the fuel pump working fine since it primed. If you have an injector laying around, unplug one injector on the engine and plug it in to the free hanging one and crank the engine a little holding the injector or watching/listening to see if it is opening/closing. A simple fuel pressure test can be done by checking the shreader (sp?) valve. Portect your eyes and any heat sources. Just give it a quick tap to see if there is pressure.

EDIT: If you don't have an injector laying around you can connect a digital voltmeter to the blue or green wire on one injector plug that goes back to the ecm. Leave all 8 injectors plugged in when doing this. The meter on DC will read 12 volts with the key on. When you crank the engine the voltage should start bouncing around between 0 volts and 12 volts. DO NOT use a test light because the ohms of the light is too low.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

THe dizzy is not out 180* is it?

-- Joe

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Only things I can think of is D6 & D7 grounded (use meter like J said or get a noid light)
If it runs with starting fluid, it'll run once the injectors pulse.

It must be something in one of these:
a.) 12 Volts to the injectors (both sides of the motor)
b.) Injector wires back to the ECM
c.) ECM grounds
d.) VATS (but you took care of that)
e.) TPS is greater than 80% when you are cranking.

The ref pulses don't seem right when looking at the log and the commanded AFR never leaves 00.00.
I'm not so sure on the distributor at this point. Possibly check to see if you plugged the pickup coil in backwards. 8 pin module ground not right? Running the MSD you should see a spark easily. Maybe your using the wrong trigger wire? I think its the white one IIRC.

AC

iTrader: (3)

Well thank you all. I checked, checked, checked some more, then when I found some spare time I checked some more for spark, plugs, ICM, dizzy, coil, everything that makes up the 3 elements of combustion (air,spark,fuel). I did multiply my crank BPW vs. temp by .36 to compensate for my 22lb stock to 60lb new injector setup. She started tonight for the first "real" time. I say real because she would keep going if I feathered the throttle. If I didn't she would die. I floated the RPM's between 800-1100 rpms. My first question is I see my desired idle RPMs are saying like 3100 RPM according to TunerPro RT. That really doens't seem right and I also cannot find any item within the code to point out desired idle RPM?
BTW, I'll post a video with sound of my car in the exhaust forum within the next day or so. It's freakin obnoxiously mean!

AC

iTrader: (3)

Well, here's a first of EVERYTHING log. My knock counts are absolutely out there. I'm doing a search right now through the forums to see / learn why. I'm not sure if it would matter but my block is ceramic filled (Moroso filler) up to the first freeze plugs. Also, the O2 sensor is not hooked up in this. My goal right now isn't even to drive it, just get it to idle decent. Once that's done I need to tune it to simply break in my rear end, clutch, transmission and engine.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Wow, so all it was was the (30/60) bpw crank I mentioned?

60's are big with the $58 code, but doable. Did you change the code settings for V8 in terms of the rpm fuel cutoff and stuff?

EDIT: Idle is the most difficult part of the $58 code. Start tuning idle with the $8D first and then use those values for the $58 code.

gta324

I too get alot of Knock counts in $58.

I have 70lbs inj with $58 and it idles "ok" but I have a rather big engine.

BPW is @.83 at idle....

Ps I'm not sure the sunbird wiring with 749 ECM is the best way to run p/h injector but thats another story.......

/N.

w_mortell

hey. I really dont know all that much about ecm or eprom or any of that electrical stuff. however I do have a question for you all.......how do i make my injectors work? I have a 91 firebird with a MAF 3.1. and VATS, the only thing, is I dont have the VATS keys, I bought the car as a repo, and i have gotten the fuel pump working, the starter working, I just cant get the injectors to work. anybody????!!!!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The injectors won't work because of VATS. You need a 50-60 Hz squarewave generator or have someone program you a chip with VATS removed.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

How are you pulling that off? i couldn't get 42's to idle w/out the pulse width being too low to be reliable. Regarless of quasi or async fueling.


-- Joe

gta324

in my sign you can hear the idle (2007) , but it wasent fine tuned when I did the clip.

I can post the bin later, but I do net recommed anyone to use it becurse its modified in alot of places.

Do you want a scan report also?

/N.
----------
Forgot to add the sign

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It is good to hear that you have your engine idling with the 42's. Idle with my 42's is what made me give up on tuning the $58 code. I just couldn't get it right no matter what I tried. I threw in the $8D and it idled perfect so I chucked the $58 code. Was it one parameter that made a huge difference or was it a bunch of small tweaks?

gta324

its 65lbs injectors with higher Fuel pressure......
Will post my latest bin later......

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

^^^ I agree. $58 wouldn't work right for me with high impedance 42s. 36's it ran fine.

Either way, I sold the blower setup, and have been back on $8d for a year now.

-- Joe

AC

iTrader: (3)

I've heard alot of these $58 comments. I'm running (trying to atleast) get my setup running my 60# injectors using $8D for now. Once I get it good and broken in I'm going to switch over to the $59 code. 86Z who is local to me has had some really good experience with the $59 code but even though he's also running a blower he's running smaller injectors, smaller heads, smaller engine than I am so in the end I might have to end up back in the $8D.

gta324

Not necessary..

My car runs "good" with $58 code, will try $59 soon.
415cui
65lbs inj at higer pressure -> 70lbs
and boost...

so its not impossible.

gta324

Here is one of my latest bins. I test new thing on every bin, I think it was soemthing with EGR DC or BLM on this one, have my notes in the car.

Also a tts scan........

/N.