This is the big worry to me about starting trying to burn my own chips for my 1991 Camaro, I dont own a laptop computer.

I own a PC I could set up in the garage, and I have started reading threads and tech articles to try and understand, but being as I am such a learn by doing type person, I cant understand much without getting over this first large hurdle.

Is it possible/reasonable to do this without a laptop?

 

But how are you going to drive the car?

 

I am a complete noobie, I dont really understand your question, but I think I might have answered my own question.

Thank you.

 

Let me answer my own question for others that may ask this question later.

The Laptop computer acts as a scanning tool, it can be older than hell, even running dos.

To start learning, you do not need a scanning tool. You can start changing some simple things without one.

At some point you want to know exactly what your ECM sees, this is why you need a scanning tool. Your laptop can funtion as this, and it will work best for some TPI settings, or you can get a handheld scanner instead.

With a hand held scanner you will not log as many date points as you would with a laptop. Also, hand held scanning equipment costs money, where laptop software in some cases is free.

Example. Lets say you want to tune your car for max acceleration at WOT 0-60. Now, lets say it takes you 6 seconds, knowing all the information your ECM knows at 6 points through your run is not nearly as great as knowing it at 600 points through the run. Your laptop can do this for you, and can also GRAPH your date. A hand held can not.

Conclusion. You DONT need a laptop.

Laptop > Hand held
(Laptop gathers more information, and can graph)

Please, someone tell me how wrong I am

 

Desktop or laptop, doesn't matter for burning chips. For scanning though, a laptop would definitely be preferable due to ease of portability. Using a desktop would be possible though... I did it a couple of times in the garage to test my interface (before I got a laptop). If you actually want to go driving around with the desktop you will need an inverter that can handle the load.

As for a PDA, I think I came across a place that was selling OBDI scanner software for Windows Mobile devices... I can try to find it again if you want. As for chip burning with a PDA, I'm sure something custom could be setup (software wise)... But, it would probably be a sort of massive undertaking...

I am not familiar with any of the handheld scanner options, but as far as I know they cannot program chips (not on OBDI anyway). So, the best bet is probably some form of PC (laptop or desktop) because it can run all the software and has the capability to both datalog/scan and program/burn with the appropriate hardware (i.e. data interface for scanning and a chip burner for burning chips)...

 

My understanding is that you would log with the hand held scanner, then use that information at your PC to burn a new chip. You can see from your scanner it is running too rich above 1500 rpm, ect.

I dont understand why it would be hard to burn from a PDA though, due to the fact that burning hardware is now set up to plug into your USB, not your parallel port. Dont PDAs have USB ports?

Grr... I need a laptop so old it can barely run win 95, any one selling one?

Keep in mind, I dont have any experience with PDAs or PROMs, this is only my understanding.

 

You could do it that way for sure, only downsides, I guess, are as you said: no graphing, and a lower sample rate... Well that and the expense, $ wise, of the handheld scanner... You can make your own scanner interface (for PC) for less than $10.
I have never owned a PDA either, so please forgive me if I am way off base here, but it is my impression that PDA's run a slimmed down version of Windows called Windows Mobile, and that regular Windows apps cannot run on such a platform. Yes, I believe they have USB ports, but wouldn't you would need a custom driver to operate the programmer (unless the programmers come with PDA drivers...? ).
I found mine on Ebay for $50 bucks , lot of looking and bidding on different ones, but I finally got it. It can run Win98 no problem, the only bad thing is that the battery was toast, so I have to run it off an inverter in the car .
Hah, me neither lol. Just trying to recall all the stuff I read from back when I was considering getting into PROM burning. Hopefully our combined "half-knowledge" can make at least a mostly whole and somewhat accurate assumption. Maybe someone will come in tomorrow and clear up any places we may have gone wrong.

 

Im thinking el-cheapo Laptop is my answer.... But inverters are expensive... dont they make cigeret lighter plug ins for your laptop?

High for taking two people with half baked knowledge and coming up with a working theory!

 

Yes they make car chargers for old laps. I use an old win 98 serial port lap to log then, down load data to a floppy. Take it to the "office" PC XP pro and analyze, graph, and ponder. Change chip, reload to floppy, dump into Prominator, and test drive. Repeat as necessary.

The lap puked after a year of setting in the heat, so off to e bay and for $25.00 plus shipping get another one.

Read the descriptions carefully as most "for parts" Laps have the Hard drives removed.

Or you can get a usb ALDL cable and use the newer stuff.

 

Yeah, like pandin said, I think there are cigarette lighter chargers for laptops. The little inverter that I have I got for $13 bucks and it plugs right into the cig lighter. However, if you get a laptop with a working battery you won't need to worry about any of that.

 

I would highly discourage going too "el cheapo" when choosing a laptop. Fewer and fewer software packages out there support Windows 95 or 98, and that trend will only continue. Most newer software will continue to support Windows XP and newer. You can easily find a laptop that runs Windows XP for very little money ($200 would be reasonable). I have a little 400mhz laptop w/ a touch screen (a Toughbook) that runs XP just fine, and I think I paid $300 for it 3 years ago.

Why can't you use a PDA? Well, you could, if you could find the software you need to do the job.

 

I agree with Mark.

Don't go too cheap on the laptop.

I have an old IBM think pad 570, that works, and if the battery was good would be perfect since it's very light, has no CD drive, and runs Win 98. The big problem is the battery is toast, so I HAVE to use an inverter with it, and it seems to lock up every now and then. I had sinec retired that laptop because it only has one USB and the one serial port doesn't work for some reason. If the serial port worked then it would be very good, serial datalogging and USB to the emulator. Oh well. The 570 now resides at work, and use it for looking up information on the interweeb, and chatting on MSN, but that's about all I use it for.

I bought a used IBM T30, unfortunatly it only lasted me about 6 months with a 30 day warrentee. So I looked around and wasn't going to buy another IBM, I ended up buying a Lenovo (part of IBM), because it had the best specs, for the best price. When I looked into any other laptop, they were more like "fashion" laptops, looked good, but had flimsy hinges and just looked like they would break.
When looking around the pits at the local drag strip, most of the laptops being used are IBM/Lenovo, so that has to say something.
I now have a Lenovo R61i. I love it, it seems durable, I actually dropped it a couple weeks ago, it was in my laptop bag, and the strap let go, with the strap around my shoulder, right onto a linoleum floor. I'm currently typing this reply on it, so that really says something about these Lenovos.

A Tough Book would be the other recomendation, and eventually I'd like one.

There is another portable hand held datalogging option coming out at some point, probably a year or more off, but looks to be a pretty killer item. I think I may have said too much already, I can hear the choppers coming into lock me down and the guys in the black trench coats to take me away.....

A PDA would be nice, but I think due to limitations it may be more hassle than it's worth.

Overall a laptop would have more functionality and more future capabilities. You may not want emulation now, but in the future you might, getting a laptop with USB ports now, will allow for that expandibilty later. Who knows what future products are out there, that may be of interest when they are developed.

 

The lap I was referring to is a IBM Thinkpad 166 MHz 80 gig mem, okay for 98 a little weak for XP.

What happens to these old computers is the little watch battery dies and you have no bios (won't boot up).

The electrolytic capacitors (used everywhere to filter noise) start to dry up at about the 10 year mark (think of a small wet cell battery), so you start getting the random shutdowns (software and hardware).

Cars are electronically a very noisy place, compared to your "office".

Mine works better on the AC and Desk, then the DC and passenger seat.

The replacement main batteries can easy be $50 to $100 bucks.

If I was just starting and had limited funds. Get the usb ALDL cable and the cheapest lap that would had usb/98. Fly with that, then save money/look for a better lap, for when the "cheapo" dies.

If you are saving Data logs, short ones (15 min) are around 1 meg, your lap will get full in a hurry.

 

My 570's Bios battery was toast when I got it, it still booted up, just had to set date and time everytime. I bought a watch battery socket and made it fit, works cherry now.

The logs made in Tuner Pro RT are smaller than that. I have a couple logs that are over an hour long and are just under 1.4MB and just over 1.6MB. Many that are about an hour long that are under 1MB.

Yes, some laptops will be more sensitive to electrical noise than others, also some vehicles electrical systems are noisier than others. That's why I try and use the laptop battery when ever possible. A good alternator and car battery will help filter out much of the noise though.

 

it may be a bit overkill for many people, but you can embed a PC into a car. They make some very compact motherboards now days and small LCD's are getting real inexpensive too. You could also use it for mass mp3 storage, GPS, incar DVD player etc... A bit more expensive than a cheap laptop, but less expensive than a high end laptop. the mods to the car needed wouldn't be right for everybody though.

And I used to have an old desktop computer on a cart with about 25 feet of serial cable in the garage for connecting, and even once ran a serial cable out a window from my dining room to a car to do some diagnostics with my desktop pc.

 

Sadly, I dont have a garage, and I have to drive over the drain field to get to my comp, I think I will just wait till I have $500 to spend on getting this project off the ground.

The main reason I want to learn is so I can put a TPI setup in a second gen, then get a torque cam in there and NEVER find traction again.

Therefore, I need a second gen and a TPI setup first. I thought I could spend $200 and get started learning on my TBI.

 

If you watch Ebay, a thinkpad t20 (1ghz processor, 256gb mem, 10gb hd) working is selling at 100-150 including shipping, the chargers sell at 15-20, and a new battery in the 25-50 dollar range these are big enough for XP which a lot of times is already loaded. Do a search "thinkpad t2*", should get you 200 hits.

These IBM's are Corporate lease returns, and there are many other brands for sale.

You could start with a long cable and a desktop, but soon you will want to "drive and log".

 

When I ran into this situation I saved a few pennies and then went to the local electronics store and went right to the cheapest new laptop they had available. It was like $650 or something around there, and now I don't know how I lived without it. I probably actually use it for my car about 0.1% of the time, and that's even what I bought it for.

 

I wouldn't even mess with an ebay laptop. Check out newegg.com or tigerdirect.com. You can get a current technology laptop for a really decent price. And I guarantee that you will find more uses for it than just tuning.

 

You all have been amazing, thank you for all the info you have provided.

I will start saving money in one month, half towrads the second gen and parts for it, the other half towards getting a laptop and prom burning equipment. In two or three months time I should be rocking a pimping laptop and a camaro with a custom burn.

Few months after that, 1979 Camaro with a 350, Vortec Heads, TPI (Yes, I know, intake needs machined) forged pistons, torque cam, 3.73 rear end, and a manual four speed.


Ok fine... Might not be till a year from now the second gen will be up to those standereds, but it will be bitching

 

I just bought a new laptop about 6 months ago from Best Buy for $495. Its got a dual core intel(forgot the speed) 1Gb of ram and 120Gb HDD, with built in WI-FI. It gets used a lot and I'm very happy with it. I do 3D modeling with 3DS Max on my desktop and the laptop wont cut it for that or serious gaming but for most tasks its fine. For 50 bucks less I could have gotten an identical model without the WI-FI.

As was stated above New Egg and Tiger Direct are really good sources for computer stuff. I have used New Egg at least once or twice a year for at least five or six years and have had no problems with them so far.

 

I wish my PC was half that good

 

Me too. Man, I hate the way computers get outdated so fast. I think my parents paid like $1100 for this desktop back in '04 I think it was. Now there are LAPTOPS 2x as powerful as it for half the price!!!

I know it's just the nature of the beast when it comes to technology, but damn it's annoying.

 

It can be annoying yes, but its a situation you can also take advantage of too if you adopt the right technology philosophy.
For desktop computers I build my own, and update them continuously over time. Usually having a fairly high end up-to-date system but never paying out large sums of money all at once to do so. As a side benefit i usually have a secondary system or two built from hand me down parts from the primary system. 200-300 bucks a year is what I usually spend to keep up.

the people at these sites know their stuff;
anandtech.com
sharkyextreme.com

 

The Desktop PC's are more easily updated then the laps.

To get into the update mode most use a generic box and build from there, the prebuilds make it harder to update as their parts are exclusive to their boxes (generics don't physically fit). The software is also a challenge (send us your HD and we will reload the OS), The HD is returned wiped clean of any software or data you have loaded.

There are fewer generic laps then the Desktops, so getting your base box is tough, small spaces take special parts.

 

i got a IBM A22e data logging. works fine. running win 2000n pro and is more than able to do what i need it to. as for a small box pc ive seen lots used in cars/home audio applications. they work great. it all depends on personal preferance i guess. laptops today can be built from a diy kit. id love to do that just once to see what its like. basicly find a case and plug in the parts and fire it up and load an os.

 

If you still want something that fits in your (cargo shorts) pocket, you could check out some of the new ultraportable laptops that have come out. Its a little different than what I used before, but I bought a EEE PC about a month and a half ago and its worked great for data logging, browsing on the net, and emulating. 9" screen, 900mhz celeron, 20g of SSD that will never skip a beat, and tiny *** keyboard that causes the occasional typo!

Tuner Pro is a little hard to use at times with 1024x600 resolution, but its not too bad at all. I like the little thing, and its nice being able to sit in bed and check up on forums!

 

Not quite, but I think this product might have a future: http://devtoaster.com/products/rev/index.html.

Now, if we could get him to support OBDI

Anybody got an iPhone?

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