88´TransAM

Hello. Take a look to my 383 Stroker TBI:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkXEltQb2Yk

The engine is a 383 stroker with AFR 195 heads, Jones cam, Edelbrock Air-Gap intake manifold, 454 BBC TBI with 80´injectors @9-13 PSI. I am going with the ebl. I changed the ve-tables to get a good airfuelratio and changed the cells in the sa table to blow off the engine knocks. The engine runs nice, starts very good but i can not drive in the moment, because i haven´t got a license plate.



Maximum spark advance is 33.4° BTDC. I think, its freaky ?! Normally, i should have much more spark advance ?! How do you think about this SA table ??

THX

xch3no2

How much timing an engine needs boils down to cylinder burn rate,
faster burn rates require less timing. Intake mixture quality & quantity, compression ratio ect. all play a role in burn speed.

Bottom line anything over 28* may be a valid maximum advance, some may say even lower, but that would be unusual to me.
This ranges as high as just shy of 45* for a cyl that needs a ton of advance at speed.

If you think you can add fuel (if your mixture is lean) you may be able to add more timing to go along with it, otherwise not to worry, just give the engine what it wants.

xch3no2

Maybe someday this site will allow us to delete dbl posts.
Maybe some day I'll figure out how to keep it from happening lol.

thomas1976

Supposing the caprice bin. "AE-tps-PW" and "AE-map-PW" tables have been multiplied x 0.7625 and BPC for with VacRef set (1) from 114-347.

With "IdlSa" option set (as it probably is in the stock caprice bin) if i remember correct "SA-Idle State SA" needs to be used to change SA at idle.

Now that it is running, I would bump FP up to at least 20 psi again, in 2-3 steps to make tuning easier.

Can't see the WUD wery clear. The KNK did appear to increase after you gave it some trottle. Bump the FP up and get back to it later.

At startup and turn-off some KNK is normal.

88´TransAM

It isn´t possible to set the BPC-values from 114 to 347, because the maximum value is 255. The cells 75 KPa and 80 Kpa are setting to the maximum rate 255.

To change the "SA-Idle State SA" is a good idea. I was wondering why the SA in idle doesn´t work with the MAIN SA TABLE. I forgot about it.. :-)
Now, i changed the value from 20° BTDC to 15° BTDC, because the value in WUD jumps between 16° and 20° BTDC. I think, it´s the cause for my knocks in idle ?!

I think, the fuel pressure will be ok. This is a 454 TBI-Unit, just on a "little 383" engine. In stock 454, the pressure is 13 PSI. I think, it´s ok and i´ll never get injector duty cycle over 95% ?!

helo

actually, later 454 tbi's used 4.3 injectors @ ~30psi. Your biggest problem with keeping the stock 9-13psi pump is maximum flow. If it can't supply sufficient volume at 13psi, you'll lean out at high rpm. The 96+ vortec pumps are a good replacement choice (with an adjustable regulator&gauge)

I'm not sure what you mean by changed VE for "good" AFR, because that won't work in closed loop due to BLM. You can bump your o2 threshold windows so the ECU targets a richer lambda (if you're trying to achieve lower AFR), but you really need a wideband for that.

For idle SA, your goal is to achieve the lowest MAP reading with warm motor. Might be 15*, might be 25*; only 1 way to find out!

Running too far retarded can cause all kinds of issues. You might gain a lot from more timing, there's really no way to know without trying on your setup. Trying too much SA doesn't kill engines, it's when you run too much advance on a lean mixture that you'll blow stuff up. When you're ready to do SA, set your PE entry low (35% TPS, no delay), and you'll quickly figure out if more timing yields more power on your motor.

88´TransAM

Good AFR in closed loop is 14.7:1. Checked with WBO2. My fuel pump is an ACD 241, stock TPI. I think, it´s good. Perhaps, it´s a good idea to go with 9-15 PSI. 20 PSI is too much for my 80´injectors. It´s too rich !

Take a look to my VE-TABLE:



What do you think ?

thomas1976

Go with 20psi, thats is safe fuel for around 375hp, I really doubt your set up will make less hp.

The caprice bin. with #80 injectors and 20 psi FP.
"AE-tps-PW" and "AE-map-PW" tables should be multiplied x 0.61 and BPC for with VacRef set (1) from 92-142. (do the math and let me know if did something wrong)

Use at least a FP were vacuum referenced BPC can be set up correctly (at least 15 psi).
Of course it will run rich by increasing FP, VE tables need to be corrected too.
Can increase the FP in 2-3 steps (2-3 psi each), makes the tuning easier, after each change let the EBL learn the VE tables and smooth out the grafic by hand, this all will take around 1-2 hours, wen BLM is around 128 you can add FP and repeat the whole proces.

I would suggest you use the caprice SA main table, fueling has to be set up first.

88´TransAM

Now, i changed the value in "SA-Idle State SA" to 15° BTDC, but it didn´t make a difference. Please tank a look to my log. You see, the SA in idle jumps. I want to have got 15° BTDC constant. What can i do ??? THX

RBob

iTrader: (1)

At idle there is idle compensation SA. The purpose is to prevent a rolling idle. With a worked engine such as yours, should reduce the amount of compensation SA.

These two tables:

SA - Idle Low Compensation
SA - Idle High Compensation

Can cut them to 25% of the current values.

The "SA - Idle State SA" value is used during idle when this option flag is set:

Option Word 2 - Bit 1 - IdlSa

I have a feeling that once you start driving the car that the SA table will be off. Look at the 5.4l '113 headed engine calibration. It should be closer to what your AFR headed cam'd engine will want.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I think someone assumed you are using a VAFPR. Are you? If not then the table will be set 92 across the board... I too think tour FP is inadequate. I would run 20. I run 80's at 20 FP in a 350 CID. Keep DC 80-85 if you can.

88´TransAM

Yes, i am going with VAFPR. My BPCs are from 114-255, because the highest possible value is 255. The last two cells in the table are 255...

I think, i should go step by step from 13 PSI to 20 PSI. My first BIN was with 20 PSI, but the engine didn´t start. The AFR was too rich.

Otherwise, i think, i should go with 13 PSI, just to break in the engine. The engine is brand new.

Today, i changed the following values:

SA - Idle Low Compensation
SA - Idle High Compensation

Idle SA in closed loop jumps between 14° and 18°. Roughly idle. Ok, the cause could be the camshaft, i don´t know.

Rbob, you said, i should go with the 5.4l 113´headed BIN, but there is much more spark advance than in my freaky sa table. I´ve got spark knocks with my own table. With the other one, i think, i´ll get backfires ?!

I thought, better heads=less SA ?! Not ?

THX

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

.

Post your table. Above cannot be correct. 114 seems OK although I did not do a calc. Did you use the utility that RBob provided? That table can be calculated. 114 you suggest is value 100 MAP. If you are NOT using VAFPR all the MAP values in that table are 114. I believe the calculator RBob provided gives you 90-20 MAP.

88´TransAM

Yes, i used RBobs calculator. This is my BPC-table:





Take a look. 255 is the highest possible value...

88GMC1500

This is a good indication of your fuel pressure being way too low. Take rBOB's spreadsheet calculator and put the fuel pressure at 20 and have a look at the values. It should show a max BPC of about 142 or so.

88´TransAM

Today, i changed some values in the iac tables. Idle looks nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JaGeCflCRo

Next week, i´ll go to 20 PSI fp. Can you give me some examples of 20 PSI VE-tables ??

thx

88GMC1500

I'd be glad to show you my settings. I'm by no means close to a great tune. I struggle with VE for over 2 years now. I just dont get enough time to mess with it. I run a 350 with LT4 hot cam, 1.6 rockers, stock vortecs with LT4 spring kit, headers, performer intake and bored throttle body with 90LB (yes 90) injectors. I run vrFPR 15-22psi.

Let me know if you are still interested.

88´TransAM

Wow, 90´injectors @22 PSI in a 350 SBC is a lot of fuel. Really a lot of work in the fuel tables. Just out of couriosity, how many MPGs do you get ?

Great, of course i am interesting. Please mail the file to jan.himbert@t-online.de . Thank you !!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

From AFR's web site they are showing 34 to 36* of timing at WOT. Note sure at what RPM that is all in by. Check the SBC dyno results for the timing info.

Not sure where or why you are seeing knock. But it can be caused by lean conditions. It may also be false knock.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

should be the same with a corrected BPC. However not so on AE......

88´TransAM

But the engine doesn´t work @20 PSI with corrected BPC-tables and corrected AE... :-(

I did never say the specifications of my engine in this thread. Take a look:

The shortblock is a 2-bolt-rollerblock with 1-pcs-mainseal, bored to 4.030" over. Eagle crankshaft with flattop-hypereutectic-pistons. The cam datas are:

Duration intake @0.05 224°
Duration exhaust @0.05 226°

Lift intake .502"
Lift exhaust .498"

Lobe separation 110°

The heads are AFR 195 with 65 ccm combustion chamber. With my head gasket, i´ll get a compression ratio 10.8:1.
My rockers are Harland Sharp roller rockers (stainless steel), ration 1:1.6.

Edelbrock Airgap intake manifold with adapterplate and 454 BBC throttlebody.

Headers, homemade Y-pipe 2.5" pipe from each head to one 3" pipe. 3" highflow catalytic converter, Flowmaster 3" American Thunder exhaust system.

Zeitronix WBO2, Rob´s great EBL


I know, it´s not easy to tune a TBI engine with ede airgap and cam with 110° LSA. But it should be doable....

xch3no2

Are the cam specs 1.6 ratio inclusive?

88´TransAM

Oh sorry. No, the cam specifications were just with 1.5 rollerrockers....

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

You will need all of the above due to CID and heads and cam. Certainly the engine will run with lesser FP BUT it may go lean at WOT.

Please define "doesnt work". You mean cold cold start or upon start it is way rich? It may be due to the BPC vs vac tables.

I would agree. If the FPR spring is linear and is 20 lbs at WOT and you show 198 at 60 VAC 40 MAP it will be flowing too much fuel. Crank is 80 VAC 20 MAP and 255 is same story too much fuel. What FP do you see at idle?
I am like 12 at idle 40 MAP.

88´TransAM

Today, i changed the fp to 16 PSI. The engine runs great. Differences like day and night. FP at idle is now 10 PSI. Idle is very smoooooooooth....

Tomorrow, i´ll go to 20 PSI. Then, i´ll change the VE-table values.

Do you first change the ve-tables or should be set the SA-tables exactly before changing VE-tables ??

xch3no2

It goes back & forth, with my background, I will always be looking to fully fuel the engine then finding the right time to light it at.

Sooo..you might find me adding both fuel then spark until the limit of each has been met.
ie. until more timing does not help a rich mix, you meet the evil knock, or loss of increasing power output.

I'm not the guy trying to find how little fuel the engine will run on & setting advance for best emissions.

Base your high fuel pressure on what the engine NEEDS. Start your calculations (loosely) with the engines expected HP.

I am of the blind opinion that you need between 18-22psi. That is a huge range, but it really depends on how well all the parts come together. This is just based on the parts you selected, not the final assembly or detail work.

88GMC1500

With my FP at 22psi WOT (15psi at idle) here is my BPC and VE. I cant help with SA because I have no clue how to tune timing. I've been trying to learn for years. Since its very hard to "meter" results of timing changes other than "it feels stronger" I have not been able to figure it out.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I used a stock L03 SA table then added a bit more SA due to my modern alum heads.

It is prob best it be done on as dyno. I believe you tune(without regard to emishions) for max TQ at all RPM/MAP cells. without a dyno you would need to tune for max MPH in same cells. My best answer.

88´TransAM

Ok, today, i changed the fuelpressurespring in the TB and added a shim. Now, i am going with 19 PSI without vacuum and with 13-14 PSI in idle. Idle is smooth. Then, i used the ve-learn. Tomorrow, it´s time to set a good SA-table to get away from my freaky SA-table in the top of the thread.
I think, it´s really a good idea from Ronny to go with the stock L03-table and adding some degrees of spark advance. But, my heads aren´t swirl port heads as you know. It´s not a good idea to go with a stock SA-table from a L98 or LB9 engine ???

@Ronny: Do you really mean MPH ? Not MPG ??

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

AFR 195 heads. I see that. I have new edition of Edel RPM heads 64cc.

MPH. May not be practical monitoring MPH for all the SA cells in EBL SA table. Post a thread looking for someone that uses those heads here or CF. They may be able to advise.

bjankuski

I will admit that I did not read all the posts but typical AFR 195 heads will like more timing then what you have in your table. For light cruising I would expect at least 40 degrees of timing and WOT above 3000 RPM should be around 30 degrees to maybe 36 degrees.

bjankuski

I agree with you, use the LB9 or L98 timing tables, they will be much closer to what you need.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

good advise. I think I personally are leaving some performance on table. I am at 36 max at no load and trail down to about 27 at WOT 100 MAP I recall

88´TransAM

Tomorrow, i´ll search the SA-table from my LT1cammed 305 TBI. Perhaps, it´s a good idea to go with it on the stroker, too ?! I´ll post a picture...

thomas1976

Have u tried my 360tbi calibration?

Today I used the ebl 1001.bin SA table with it, works great, no knock, little VE corrections.

88´TransAM

No, i didn´t. I changed the values in my own BIN. Now, it runs with 19 PSI. In two weeks, i´ll get my license plate and i can change the other values on the road.

88´TransAM

Today, i used the sa-tables from the 1001.BIN, too. It runs nice. Just some knocks...

thomas1976

Iron head LT1 SA table https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...606-post3.html

Alu head LT1 SA table http://ultm8z.com/DIY%20Tuning.htm
This is the one I'm working with at the moment BDZL 1993 A4 TranAm.BIN, no knock.

Imput https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...97-post11.html

How much SA does AFR suggest for theyr heads?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Not really, I would look at LT1 F-car timing tables as those are fast burn, aluminum heads on a 10.5:1 350. They work really well with most aftermarket aluminum headed engines. The 1996 LT4 map also works very well.


255 as a BPC is way, way, way off and is the cause of too much idle fuel. It should be close to 80# at WOT and 100KPA and in the low 100s at 20 KPA.

I would get a wideband on it, get the air/fuel ratio in to the mid 12s below 85% DC @ heavy throttle by raising the fuel pressure and adjusting the BPC and then plug in the LT1 F-car timing table. Once you have enough fuel and timing, work on smoothing out the fuel delivery with the VE tables. You have to crawl before you walk, walk before you run.

88´TransAM

@fast355: Can you give me the LT1 timing tables ? Thanks.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

This is the one that I have run on several aluminum head small blocks running in the 9.5-10.5 compression range.

88´TransAM

How much is the initial spark advance on these engines ? Can you mail me the BIN-File ? It´s easier with copy and paste... :-) thx

jan.himbert@t-online.de

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

LT1 engines don't have a conventional distributor, they have an opti-spark unit low on the front. I would set the initial timing at 10* BTDC on both the distributor and the initial setting in the ECM. Optimal idle timing on an aluminum head small block will be 20-32* BTDC.

The bin file is for a $EE setup LT1 ecm, the tables are not something you can simply copy paste, they have to be messaged to work.

CORV3TT3