edixon24

I just got it in the mail. was able to load up tunerpro. my question is... there is nothing even close to my build in the provided BIN files. I want to get something pulled up to play around with but I don't know where to start. My build is as follows


gen I small block
383 ci
aluminum trickflow 195 super 23 heads 72 cc chambers


Cam Style: Hydraulic roller tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 2,500-6,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 236
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 242
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 236 int./242 exh.
Advertised Duration: 288 int./294 exh.
Valve Lift: 0.520 int./0.540 exh.
Lobe Separation 110
Grind Number: CS XR288HR-10

HSR intake
accel 32# injectors
hooker shorty headers
700r4 trans w/2500 stall
im thinking 10.5/1 CR


I have another few weeks before ill be doing any testing, I still need to build my y-pipe and finish up some plumbing stuff. Is this even worth worrying about right now or should I wait until I can actually fire it up?
figured I could get a jump on familiarizing myself with the tuning stuff while I got some down time as I am a day 1 rookie.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'd probably start with the 3005 BIN: 5.7l TPI w/auto. The SA will conservative, but that can be changed once the fueling is better.

Going to need to set the idle speeds higher, likely 850 - 900 RPM at the typical operating temperature.

Reduce the low speed VE table drastically at 400 RPM, and taper in to less of a change as the RPM increases.

Set the displacement and injector flow rate. Probably need to reduce the AE.

RBob.

lakeffect2

I use a similar set up. The 3005 bin is where I started. I had to change AE upward to get rid of sputtering when the gas pedal is hit.

edixon24

I dont have a.i.r, cats or egr anymore. Is there a way to disable those or do i just set the parameters to an unrealistic number? I havnt even started the motor yet. Just trying to get an intitial tune that i can break in the motor with. Someone said uncheck the flags in scalars but i dont see anything to uncheck. Also i have aluminum heads. Would 3006 be a better bin to start with? I have auto trans but vs. 6 speed is that a big deal concerning SA and VE tables?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The AIR and EGR should already be disabled in the bin.

Like Bob said, use 3005, and focus on getting your fueling close first. The SA can be altered later...

- Rob

RBob

iTrader: (1)

As Lethal stated per the AIR and EGR. We usually set the enable temperature (CTS) high in the BIN.

RBob.

edixon24

Copy. So this is what ive done with the the low speed VE table. When you said drastically reduce... does that look okay or is it too drastic? Not enough?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That's way too much, you took out 100% lol...

- Rob

edixon24

No. Thats the comparison between what the original 3005 bin and what i changed. So for instance i changed 32 to 17 at 400 rpm. And 54 to 52 at 2000 rpm. I was using the comparison tool to show the difference

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I was kidding, that's why I stuck my tongue out lol. Don't do it that way. Put it back to the original VE table, and reduce the table by a percentage. Highlight the whole table and reduce by 10% (0.10). Cutting it in half at your idle RPM is still reducing it by 50%, and that is way too much. You're changing your VE to avoid going too rich during your first start up attempts, that's all you're doing. The rest can be learned...

- Rob

edixon24

lol copy that. Thanks. Pretty sure im way overthinking this stuff.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

edixon24: leave it with how you did the VE reduction. See how it is after startup and the engine warms up some. If too rich then do that again, but with half that amount of reduction.

On the torque peak, it will move further up in RPM. So go slow getting that area squared away. Could also do the opposite of the low RPM leaning.

RBob.

edixon24

Will do. Now when you say opposite of the low rpm leaning... do you mean add to the high rpm VE table gradually as th RPMs rise?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You're not overthinking things. Just remember that although you have a nice sized camshaft, your also running a 383, so the reduction in fueling isn't as drastic down low as if you shoved that same cam in either a 305 or 350. Those heads flow much better than stock as well. Don't neglect the traditional things either, meaning watch and smell for what comes out of your exhaust, and check your plugs as you go. You're not going to hurt anything if you make a mistake with the VE there, so don't worry about it. Just make sure your Base, Initial and Idle State SA is good to go. You'll be fine...

- Rob

edixon24

So if im installing my distributor with the rotor pointed at the #1 cylinder which is at TDC then what do i set as my base timing in the scalars? Says stock tpi is 6* trying to wrap my head around how that works together

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Need to shift the peak VE further up the RPM range. And add some additional VE through the upper RPM range. It will still taper down from the peak torque, but have a higher overall VE past the peak torque point then a stock BIN.

RBob.

edixon24

So after a years worth of building... I got it started but it runs like poop and dies immediately after if I take my foot off the gas. Distibutor cap was clocked wrong. clocked my plug wires one post clockwise but my plugs are fouled pretty bad. Going to clean them and try again.

Rebuildman

I am buy no means an expert at this but I have a few years and a couple motors under my belt, one of which is a 400 ci with the HSR and 200 4R trans. so I am close to your set up. First off if this is a new motor check the easy things first, fuel pressure, timing, ect. before the ecm tune. I am trying to figure out how to copy and paste my VE table from my tune to this thread, new for me. Normal cut and paste doesn't work right.

Rebuildman

I did what you did, took a picture!

Rebuildman

I am using 30# injectors, so it's close enough to get you running.

edixon24

Thanks alot man that should be a huge help.

Rebuildman

You're welcome, forgot to mention I am using vortex heads with mild pocket porting and it seemed to run good at idle with AFR around 13.8.

edixon24

alright so I got it running and idling on its own. Turns out all the recommendations for VE tables were way too much. I was blowing black smoke and barely holding an idle. I turned it down quite a bit until it stopped blowing black smoke but now its a very choppy idle and occasionally dies out. Ive messed with the spark table a little bit and the VE tables and it changes the way it runs slightly but I cant seem to get it to idle smooth. I don't know where to go from here. I double checked the distributor install and it is correct. I cleaned plugs and reinstalled. base timing is set at 6*.... im lost please help

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With that cam it isn't going to idle smooth. Since you have the VE roughed in now is time to get the engine is closed loop and do some VE Learns.

Also, check the IAC step count. With the higher idle speed the IAC may be open too much. Shoot for 20 - 25 steps on a warm idle with no other loads.

RBob.

edixon24

Rebuildman

I maybe way off here but running really rich using one of the 350 cu. in. bins that comes with the EBL on your 383 sounds a little off. When you check your fuel pressure, with engine off, does it hold pressure on the system after you turn the pump off? That will test for a leaking injector which of course will cause rich issues. Just a thought and easy to check.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is why he said to do some VE Learns. If the engine is too rich at idle, it's going to supplement the needed air the only way that it knows how to, by opening the IAC as much as it can. Like Bob said, get it into Closed Loop (just deal with the rough idle for the moment), and get some VE Learns in. As it Learns, continually Flash them in, and as your IAC counts go down bring your set screw back until you're happy with where everything it is. This is the long way through VE Learns, as opposed to tuning the VE by hand ahead of time. Either way works, but since you're a new tuner, do it the long way until you're where you need to be...

What did you change in your tune with the idle speeds?

That's good.

- Rob

edixon24

The IAC idle speed i set to 1000 rpm seemed to help it idle on its own at first

edixon24

That means i shouldnt need to put a meter on it and re-set it right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

No need for a meter, use the WUD's Diagnostic display. TPS voltage between .4 V and .8 V is good to go.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The cam is on the big side, go with whatever the cam card tells you for an idle RPM for now...

Two things to confirm with TPS;

* With the key on, but engine off, the first page (WUD Screen) should show the TPS at "0" without pressing the throttle, then when you press on the throttle all the way it should read "100%"...

* With the key on, but engine off, toggle over to the fifth page (DIAG), the TPS volts should read "0.45" to "0.65". If you see that percentage far from that number, then you have the fast idle screw too far in, back off of it until you reach that number with the key on and engine off...

From there, start the engine, and wait for it to warm up to do some VE Learns. If the engine won't stay running, and the IAC steps are still pegged (O is closed, 145 is wide open), pull fuel in increments in that area until it stays running long enough to get some VE Learns in...

- Rob

Edit: Didn't see RBob's response...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

No big deal, you provided additional info. Which is a good thing.

RBob.

zya5point0

iTrader: (4)

I'll be following this thread... Reading about someone who is teaching himself to tune and seeing the help given from the get go makes the tuning thing sound less scary, lol! Edixon24 you're pretty brave starting the learning process with a built motor, props! If I do it I'm gonna start with my stock motor..

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You'll be up and running in minutes after it's installed, you'll need the EBL Flash. Go for it.

edixon24

Yea Im trying not to sound like an idiot and be annoying but at the same time im starting from scratch so... anyway I got it idling again everything seems to be ok. a little sputtering but after it warmed up the IAC count crept back down in the 20s. Probably a stupid question but how do I set it to closed loop? I took it for a drive today (got 2.2 mpg lol) and tried to do a VE learn but it didn't make any corrections. But I forgot about the "closed loop" detail. is that why? also I do not have a wide band o2 as of yet if that helps with the troubleshooting. Thanks for all the help on this. Im glad I went with the Rbob EBL p4 flash. also glad someone else is following this. makes me not feel to bad about asking basic questions

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yes, if you're using a Narrowband for now, you need to be in Closed Loop to do your VE Learns. The system will enter into Closed Loop when it reaches a certain temperature, and when all parameters are met. If you feel you're in Closed Loop, but the system is not correcting then toggle over to the VE Learn screen and be sure the cursor is Green. If it isn't, then either you're not in Closed Loop, or you're out of your temperature range for VE Learning. In the WUD there is a setting, go to; File > Preferences, and make sure BLM is selected in the VE Learn box, as well as your temperature range for your engine being accurate. If your actual temperature is out of that range, it won't VE Learn...

- Rob

edixon24

alright the VE learns are working great. The more I drive it the better it runs. (as advertised) however I still have quite a cough when I stab the throttle. happens about 8 out of 10 times. there was mention about reducing AE earlier. There is 6 different AE tables. which one do I play around with to fix that issue. Rbob said to reduce. Lake effect mentioned he had to increase his to get rid of it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If it coughs out the intake need more AE. If it chugs then too much AE. Also look at the INT, if it increases then need more AE.

RBob.

edixon24

From what im understanding after reading up on it a little bit... with a chug on acceleration, I need to lower both the TPS PW and the MAP PW numbers. The other AE tables are for either thresholds or compensation. Is that accurate?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The PW tables are typically used to dial in the volume of AE. The filter tables are used to control the duration of the AE. A lower filter value has the AE lasting longer.

For port injection the dMAP AE is typically minimal.

RBob.

edixon24

Alright just for info to future rookies in my similar situation that may be following this... car is running fair. The more i drive it and do VE learns the better it runs. Im playing with the AE a little bit here and there. Ill do some more driving and try to dig a little deeper with SA once the VE gets dialed in. Thanks for all the help guys. Im sure ill be posting some more basic questions in the near future

edixon24

Ok... at about 40 mph 1200 rpm ish. TPS at about 5-10%.. the TCC light flashes on in the WUD and the car chugs. What do i need to change?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Describe it a little more. Does the TCC light flash over and over again with the engine bucking back and forth as if the converter is locking and locking over and over again, or does the TCC light just flash once and you feel a single buck at that particular speed and RPM...?

- Rob

edixon24

exactly. The light flashes and it bucks consistently until i either give more throttle or completley let out. Like the converter is locking and unlocking. Only does it when im trying to maintain around 40 mph.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Pull up the six areas in TunerPro for TCC-HiGr. There are two separate locations in the Parameter Tree to the left, you will see four areas in the center of the tree for TCC-HiGr, and then two more areas towards the bottom of the Parameter Tree as you scroll down along it. All you're really doing in these areas is smoothing it based on your needs, as you will see 44-mph and 40-mph used to lock and unlock the converter, as well as the targeted TPS percentages. RPM is not used. Increased horsepower, and or swapped converters effect even the stock stall speed range, and just like the VE and SA, when you change something, you have to go in and compensate for that change. How you do so is your call, because it's your driving preference...

- Rob

edixon24

I changed the mph when the converter locks and i noticed that the car bucks no matter what as soon as the TCC light comes on. Weather im doing 30 or 40 mph. The light stays on steady and the car continuously bucks until i hit the throttle or let out of it. Could this be a problem with my tranny or new converter?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You have to also look at your TPS percentage setting, both will activate the TC, which is why when you either let go, or give more throttle (immediate change in TPS percentage), the light will go off and the TC stays in one position. The two work hand in hand with each other (TPS & VSS), think of it as a fail safe when one sensor goes bad...

- Rob

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Go higher on the HiGr allowed to lock and unlock parameters. Even 50/55 MPH, need to set it up where the engine is happy. And at about 40 mph 1200 rpm ish isn't where it is.

At that point the trans is in OD, so need to lock it up at a higher MPH/RPM.

In the low gears (2nd & 3rd) can lock it up at a lower MPH as the load is lower. But same as high gear, with that cam may need to raise the allowed MPH lock/unlock point.

RBob.

edixon24

Thanks guys. Like you said the engine is a lot happier at higher speeds/rpms with the TCC. So now that ive got the initial kinks worked out, I want to try and play with the spark a little bit. Car is running very smooth but I don't feel like its at its full potential. In the beginning of this thread it was mentioned that the spark tables from the 3005 bin will be conservative... Im assuming that means I can turn it up a bit to get more power out of it? my base timing is set at 6*. would I do anything with that before I make changes to the main table? and when I do make changes would I add a few degrees across the board or just certain rpm ranges? How much will it change my VE once I change SA. is it something doing a few VE learns will take care of? again... thank you guys. I hope your compensated in some way for the answers you provide here. Ill recommend this EBL system to everyone I know.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your base timing can stay at 6* BTDC. If you have access to a timing light, and want to increase your base timing, could always bump it up to 8* in the bin and set it by hand with the EST disconnected and turning distributor. Your Idle State could be raised a tad with your combo, I would set it closer to 24*, but that's just my preference. Your cam seems like it leans more towards the radical, and with your Holley Stealth Ram and aluminum heads, I would consider running the LT4 SA-Main Table. The LT1 would be better than what you have now to get a feel for it, but the LT4 would be ideal. Just cut and paste the LT4 table into your own, then make sure your Idle State matches what it needs to in your idle RPM area. You will notice that your SA Main Table has more resolution than what may be out there, so just compensate in the RPM areas that may be missing in the table your taking from. From there, more VE Learns will be needed, but she will pull much much stronger, and that is an understatement. Compensation lol? No, it's just a hobby for me...

- Rob