Team,
I am considering adding a self tuning system to my car. Holley appears to be the most common. My car is a 91 z28 with a built 5.7. Bored 30 over, 36lb injectors, AFR, AND.... a Procharger.

I have an EBL and want to move to something easier to tune. Has anyone used something that I could look into? I know Holley has great support and i really don't want to have to tinker with tuning. I have tried and failed miserably.

Please let me know your thoughts. At this point i would have just yanked the TPI and gone with a carb. but with the supercharger, I think staying FI is the best option.

 

I used the Holley HP EFI on my cammed 383/TKO car. Of all the parts I put on that car over the years, I believe the Holley system was the single best all around product I've used. From packaging/quality feel, to support, both from Holley and the user forums, and then of course actual performance, including future expandability, the Holley completely out performed my expectations. -though that all came at a pretty hefty price. It ain't cheap as I'm sure you know. The self tuning worked very well, and I think I could've probably let it go with nothing else, but I did read up on some things here and there and do some of my own tuning over time to make it better.

Feel free to ask questions here, or hit me up via PM.

 

Thanks Abu!
My primary concern is a self tuning systems ability to compensate for the SC. I would like to keep the TPI set up and know that the system will self tune for the SC.

What system from Holley is best for this?

 

The tuning under boost with the EBL is extremely easy and user friendly. If I can help you with that part just say the word, as I've just completed tuning mine for 15-psi of boost pressure...

- Rob.

 

I have used a lot of different ECM systems in my 3rd gens. Most recently i went with Holley HP for my RAMJET 350 project that still utilized GM HEI / ICM based ignition. Initially I believed and still do to some extent the Holley has a lot going for it. It was easy to set up and initially get to drive around. Unfortunately in the end I could not get rid of a random misfire that would occur on average every 30 miles or so in mid throttle steady cruise (no AE active, steady 14.7 AFR, etc). It wouldn't stall the car, but it was very annoying. For an individual I have a lot of tuning experience and in the end the Holley was frustrating in the lack of detailed tables, etc i was use to being able to adjust using Tunerpro, HP Tuners on LSx, EBL, etc...

Also I ended up in my quest to resolve it changing almost everything as the Holley does not have any diagnostic codes. You need to try and capture the data (their data logger is very nice in many ways, but...) which became extremely hard as the event was so random. I eventually captured at first a normal log and then actually a system log. From this I was able to determine additional tuning likely wasn't going to help as it seemed that the crank signal calculation was occasionally getting messed up and causing it to need to resync so to speak. This became more apparent when it was suggested by one of the members on the Holley site to change to a CDI box. As soon as I did so the frequency of the misfires increased significantly. At that point I was done with the Holley as after some reading on problems with Ford Sniper systems some people have, it seems likely the Holley is a lot more sensitive to EMI related problems. Also Danny on the Holley forum site is fantastic along with several other members. However again my experience only, when i sent in request for actual Holley tech to give some advice even with my system log, etc never got one word back even though when i submitted it said 48 hrs max.

So what did i do... In one weekend I pulled out the Holley HP and the harness, installed a Painless 7730 type harness that of course i needed to modify, but by the following weekend i was driving around with EBL P4 based system and in good shape using just a narrow band to get it reasonably dialed in as i need to add another bung to the exhaust for a separate wideband. Several weeks later and some minor tuning and driving great without any issues.

I had thought about standardizing all my swaps around the Holley as it is so flexible and it really has some nice things like ability to interact with the pro-dash, etc. However I just am not confident in its reliability or detailed tuning ability now in the end.

Everyone has different experiences, that is mine. I suspect if I would have played around more with harness positioning, etc i could have gotten it to go away. However the fact that it seems the widebands are not too durable, the HP computer if it fails is $1000 replacement, and at least for me lack of all the tune tables i am use to, especially in the idle area for example, i am going a different way at this point

 

Don't try to use a self-tuning fuel injection system for a boosted application. As mentioned above those entry level systems generally don't have detailed enough adjustments and tables because they are "dumbed down" to a set of drop-down lists where you select really vague things like Camshaft -> Mild/Street/Race and so forth. The systems are setup for people that know nothing at all about tuning and it will get a naturally aspirated engine running *ok*.... most of them don't do any "self" timing, and are very conservative with fueling. They are ABSOLUTELY NOT APPROPRIATE for forced induction in my opinion.

Holley has no warranty on their ECU's and there's plenty of reports of failures. They are a HUGE company that is owned by a large investment group (https://www.sentinelpartners.com/) and their tech support is as you would expect - call centers with long wait times and no ability to talk to the same person when you call back.... you call, wait 45 minutes on hold, they resolve nothing generally, and tell you to send them a data-log which they will never look at because that guy in the call center is right on to the next call when he's off the phone with you...... then every few years they decide to reinvent the entire world or get bought out by some new investment group, fire all the engineers, dumpster all the documentation and software, and start over. Everyone on the old stuff is just screwed. And their systems that actually have real tuning abilities with proper tables and program-ability are more expensive than the competition. They also want you to replace your entire wiring harness and distributor.

That's why I developed a plug and play harness adapter for the LINK ECU's. LINK is a private company that ONLY does engine management, nothing else. It can run all the factory hardware including the stock distributor, and has Holley Dominator level tuning and program-ability at a much lower price point and without replacing any of the stock components or wiring. Also the VP of North America tunes Formula Drift and other LINK sponsor cars at my facility on my DynoJet. So support is REALLY GOOD as I have a direct line to the engineering department in New Zealand. LINK was an outgrowth of ViPec, and their ECU's are guaranteed for life.

I know everyone wants this to be easy and simple and cheap. But the REALITY is that a high performance boosted application really NEEDS to be tuned by a professional on a chassis dyno. Self tuning is the fuel injection equivalent to buying a carb and dropping it on and adjusting idle speed and mixture then just leaving it at that. You will get approximately the same results. Maybe slightly better on mild engines, and likely better driveability, but WOT performance is basically unknown and without knock detection and timing adjustment is very dangerous for a boosted application. It's not worth saving the meager amount of money it costs for proper chassis dyno tuning to potentially detonate your engine to pieces. And you are likely leaving 10's of HP on the table by trying to save a few bucks and be cheap.

GD

 

Unfortunately, you signed up to be a part-time tuner when you built your engine. It's not my idea of fun either but I was forced to learn or else the car was never going to drive well.

The modern systems have really nice user interfaces, but the dream of self tuning EFI is better than the reality. All it does is track close-loop compensation and record it to a data table. It's a neat feature, but doesn't solve much of the world's problems. You still need to hand tune everything that makes a car run right, and there are a LOT of things to sort out -- especially since you're starting with a blank slate. And Holley doesn't have diagnostics, meaning there are no safety nets to protect you. You have to build in every safety net yourself within the very limited capability of the system to do that. You even have to figure out the knock sensor settings on your own. And you need to be your own detective when a problem occurs because the system isn't going to give you a diagnostic pointing in the right direction.

I'm not trying to encourage or discourage you in either direction. Just trying to help give you the right expectations so you can make your own choice.

 

That's not always true. You can get the engine to run really good with the more advanced Holley systems. But, yes, the stories of bolting it on and "the engine ran perfect" are stories told by people that aren't discerning enough to know better.

Holley is really popular with the racing crowd (na, boosted, nitrous). I have a friend that went from LS1 engine controller to Holley HP EFI and the car picked up performance but lost some idle quality. He road races at 8000 rpm and that was a decent tradeoff in his mind.

 

There is no such thing as Self Tuning. What is meant is that the fuel system will maintain target based on what is entered by the user. This is done using (basically) long term fuel learn and short term closed loop compensation. The Holley is VERY good at that. But there is no PCM that can dial in timing for you or idle quality. The advertised self tuning is false. I believe this to be a problem and not fair to the people that don't know any better. I am a long time GM and Ford tuner and use HP Tuners for factory stuff but I try to use Holley alone for aftermarket and have had great success with it.

 

setup, install and wiring are very important in most efi systems. Sounds like you had an issue somewhere. Grounds and wiring are very important on these systems.


I agree holley hp efi is very good and very friendly with alot of online support

what matters most is that a lot of shops have used them and tuned them so they can get you setup and running. The wideband closed loop control is great and works very well to keep you running well in all conditions and safe.

its perfect for boost. A blower is easier to tune than a turbo since you know your boost curve is rpm based and not so much load variable and rpm based like a turbo but the system is fast enough to keep fueling to target in case of fuel pressure loss, overboost conditions, etc.

as others have said you have to set it up and then it can tune for you somewhat, but you still need to do alot of work to fix what it does and smooth out your tables/fuel curves, etc. But its not too terrible to do.

if you had any ability to understand ebl you will be fine with a holley

 

Yes fully agree... Holley doesn't due themselves any favors by the way they are doing the grounding in their harness... GM did a good job thinking about avoidance of ground loops and why they have everything going to the engine block for the ECM and then one big ground to the battery. My case is a great example of the exact same engine / ignition / icm etc doesn't work right with Holley (ie prone to noise pick up it seems on the crank signal and then just replacing the harness with OEM type and OEM ECU (30 year old design basically in terms of interface to ICM, etc) and touch nothing else and it runs just like new

I see there is some chatter on the holley forum of holley even now not recommending GM HEI / Ford TFI set ups due to strange issues. I am just not willing to put up with ghost type issues as i have too many projects going on so i am standardizing on 7730 and 411 type ECMs for all my swaps and projects from now on

 

I had a EMI noise rlated issue with my Holley Avenger/HP. I put the car together and got everything done without the hood on. Got it started in the garage, did a little tweaking before I got it on the road. Ran great, good response. no problems. Installed my fiberglass/carbon fiber hood. Hood open the car would run fine. Hood closed it would run like crap. No wires pinched, no wires even close to the hood or hinges. I didn't even put the hood into the mix as the issue for a couple of days. Wound up to be the wire from the remote coil to the small cap HEI. I put another wire on and the problem went away.