Hey,
I just started my new motor today. Im new to the Dynamic EFI and am using the EBL_3006 5.7 alum head 6 speed file. My engines has aluminum heads and a t56. I used the EBL utility for my 24lb injectors and modified the file and my BLM is showing 128. Im running a 08-502-8 comp cam 218/224 @.5 lift. The engine is idling rough (rougher than a lopy cam should).. Had some IAC issues at first but fixed those. Still running rough. Im wondering what I need to do to the file to smooth this engine out. No codes are showing up and all engine parameters look good. Thanks for the help!

 

With a new engine, start with the basics first before playing around with the calibration. Everything was all apart and had to be put back together, so need to make sure nothing got missed. You don't want to be tuning around a malfunction.

Check your ignition base timing and double check it's correct and matches what you have set in the calibration. When I started up my 383 for the first time, it was also idling rough and I discovered I was off by one tooth on the distributor.

All your ECM grounds are hooked up.

Fuel pressure.

Vacuum lines all hooked up.

Sensors all hooked up.

You're saying the BLM is showing 128... my guess is because it's not in closed loop.

Have you run it up to operating temperature to see if it gets into closed loop? What the BLM does in closed loop could provide a clue.

 

Thanks for the reply ULTM8Z! I did set the base timing to 6 deg. once the engine was hot enough to run with the timing wire disconnected. Not too sure if it ever went into closed loop or not. Was not looking at that parameter. Good call on the grounds, I will check those! I did think it was interesting that BLM and INT both held solid 128. so im guessing I never made it to closed loop. I do know that this cam should have a custom tune for it. Problem is I dont know what to tune... Timing?? I also havent run it too long because I dont have oil coming up all the pushrods.. Kinda nervous about that but that will be another discussion for a new thread.

 

Yup sounds like it never went to closed loop. Also note with a cam, idle tune may not want to be 128 blm since overlap of cam can have extra air get into the exhaust creating false readings. May need to tune it a bit differently, tweak o2 swing points, or enable closed loop at a higher rpm off idle if you can like in $8D. That cam isnt huge so i dont think it should have problems. Being open loop as it warms up i would invest in a wideband o2 to see what air fuel is. Its typically gonna want to be richer when cold and you’ll have to play with it when warm. Try 13.8-14.7 and see what it likes. Timing you can set in the tune a little higher than stock at the idle areas to help stabilize it

 

I second the idea of getting a WB O2. It's an invaluable tool to have especially for getting open loop, power enrichment, and accelerator enrichment correct. Otherwise you're just tuning blind for that stuff.

In terms of idle fueling, If all else fails, you could simply idle in open loop. But again the WB O2 will help get that dialed in.

If you're running a standard TPI manifold, I'd start with stock timing map for now and get your fueling dialed in first. Once the fueling is correct, you can come back to the timing.

In terms of your oiling... have you verified oil pressure?

 

I will get a WB sensor. I have a edelbrock manifold with ASM tubes and Brodix IK180 heads. The potential oil issue is why I havent run it too long.. I do have good pressure 60 psi cold at idle. Its just not making it to the rockers. I reved the engine a bit to 1500 rpm and the middle drivers side rocker got some oil finally. I may prime the engine again by hand before I run it again.

 

I ran my new engine today with dynamic efi Flash 2 and it is running rough (dont think its lope and I have checked for vacuum leaks etc).. I was wondering if someone could look at my data files of the engine idling. It was in closed loop for one file and the other log it never went to closed loop for some reason. It does smooth out when I give it gas. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I notice that SA is all over the place when it idles...The files are attached. File name "new" is in closed loop.

My injectors all ohmed out at 11.4-12 ohms (rebuilt from FIC)

 

So I decided to take out the plugs.. They are all black and wet... Running too rich or maybe plugs not hot enough? They are autolite 3924's...
I will be doing a compression check.. In closed loop my BLM was basically perfect...

 

Def too rich if black and wet

put fresh ones in and lean out open loop, if its near 128 in closed loop thats good

 

I also noticed that I may have an external coolant leak from the head gasket. Between the head and block at cylinder 7 .. I was under the car checking the O2 sensor and a drip hit my face. I put sealant on all the bolts.. Its a shim gasket .015 crush. Looks like I may be disassembling this thing. I am so disappointed... So much time and effort and money!

 

I definitely get the frustration as I've been there before... but, before you take it all apart...

See if you can see coolant coming up around the head bolt washer area on the offending bolt. It may not be a gasket failure, but rather a bolt thread sealant failure. That's happened to me before.

What I did was take the rocker cover off and the exhaust header to get access to all the head bolts. I then drained the coolant from the engine, removed the offending head bolt, cleaned the tapped hole in the block and the head bolt threads. I then applied fresh teflon thread sealant to the bolt threads and re-installed the bolt.

Progressively torqued the bolt by going around all the bolts in the proper sequence, re-torquing all head bolts. That ended up fixing the leak.

 

I think the wetness on the plugs is actually oil.. Im hoping that the rings just havent fully seated yet. ULTM8Z, Yeah I was thinking I might try that. Going to put the plugs back in and run it after I tripple check my ignition system and o2 etc. Pressurize the coolant system and check again for the leaks.

 

The datalog where you're struck in OL at operating temperature, you are idling at 13.5 AFR with no CL correction, which will explain why your plugs are all wet. The second datalog, you are in CL, and your INT/BLM are exactly where they need to be.in terms of your AFR, but your timing is very jumpy, going back and forth from 21* down to 13* during idle, you just need to smooth it out. Also, you are idling at 61-kPa, about 11-12" of Hg vacuum, so with a cam that big you'll need to get your Idle timing closer to a more steady 24* and you'll be fine. Would also recommend a heated narrowband sensor if you find that you're getting stuck in OL more often than not...

- Rob

 

13.5 is not going to make the plugs wet. I run at about 13.8 to 14.0 at idle and my plugs are all a very light beige/brown, and dry. My Miniram seems to like that AFR for best idle characteristics.

Something else must be going on.

I'd recommend checking the conversion formula for the WB in the datalogger (if there is one like in Tunerpro). It could be that the AFR is much richer than being reported due a conversion error.

There's so much different with this engine setup than stock that a 128 BLM doesn't necessarily tell me that everything is A-Ok.

I'm not familiar with the EBL... What parameters are involved with programming in the injector characteristics?

 

With that much overlap in his cam, I can see his plugs getting very wet at 13.5 AFR. Now, I say 13.5 AFR because that is the target AFR, his actual AFR may very well be closer to 12.8 because he is running off of the OL table. Not to mention, those are only two datalogs, and with a 128/128 BLM in the second datalog the assumption here is he must have ran quite a few VE Leanrs for that specific cam, so there is no telling how Rich he was running due to the datalogs that preceded those two...

- Rob

 

I guess I'd also then expect to be smelling raw fuel coming out the exhaust and/or seeing black smoke?

Not sure if that's the case...(or was).

 

Similar to what Street Lethal mentioned, the EBL flash does have a setting in the computer to have spark advance constant at idle. Providing that the computer knows it's in "idle" mode which you can see in the WUD, you can command it to run at a set number of degrees (try 24 or 25 as Street Lethal mentioned). The idle spark advance mode helps if your timing table isn't 100% accurate yet. Instead of jumping through various cells and massively changing the advance, you can lock it into a set number of degrees. The EBL documentation covers this setting.

 

When I seen that second datalog with the 61-kPa at idle mixed with the 128/128 INT/BLM in Closed Loop I knew that he must have did quite a few VE Learns to get it to that point, as none of the Bins that come wiith the system are intended to immediately dial it in to stoich with that big of a camshaft, so he must have been excessively Rich when he first started with whichever Bin he chose, and the plugs just got fouled as the VE Learns were commencing. Kinda normal, I would just wipe them off, throw them back in, and see if it happens again with the stoich AFR at idle...

- Rob

 

That cam isnt big by any means. If plugs are black and wet its getting incomplete ignition and burn, and can have false readings on o2 sensors

thats why you should have a wideband and not go by what the computer is calculating, because if the base assumptions are wrong the calculations are gonna be wrong

its far from stoich if blackened. I disable closed loop til you tune open loop. Once open loop is dialed then closed loop wont have to correct as much and should be good to go. A wideband is critical for open loop

 

So, I dont think the plugs are wet with fuel. Im guessing it is oil. Would oil still be blowing by the rings? Engine has run a total of probably 15 min.

 

@Street Lethal I didnt do any VE learns... Thats my 1st go at it lol... I was so surprised to see those numbers in CL I almost dont believe it...
The cam isnt anything crazy.. Comp 08-502-8 v218 int./224 exh. .500 lift separation 112
one thing I did notice is 1 plug was not completely tight. Wondering if that may affect the idling a bit??
One last note, I am running a heated o2, just not WB.. Ive spent all my money. Will have to recoup before getting the WB

 

imo it shouldnt be oil unless something is wrong but then again weird things happen lol

make sure intake manifold bolts are tight and gasket is sealed. Can get oil in the ports. Else could be valve guides.

The obvious is does it feel like oil or does it smell like gas? Does it flash off easily with flame? Oil may take more flame time to burn off and dry the plug off, and could give indication by the smell lol

 

@Orr89RocZ well when I pulled them they didnt really smell like gas.. The heads are brand new Broix heads so I would hope the guides are not leaking.. Im really close to just pulling the heads. Im concerned that maybe my .015 shim gasket is the culprit. Though leaking into every cylinder is highly unlikely...
I should also mention quite a few plugs still appear wet 1 day later....

 

If the cam is tame, and you're seeing low manifold vacuuum at idle, you have a vacuum leak somewhere. As 61-kPa your at approximately 12 to 13" of vacuum at idle. Spray some carb cleaner in suspected areas, and listen for the engine to rev up. Double check your vacuum lines, all of them, even the brake booster...

Edit: Also, check your wiring for the heated narrowband. It will still work as a regular one wire narrowband if the heating element is bad, or if the wiring is loose, it would just need to get hot enough. Double check it...

- Rob

 

Well leak down and compression test it to see what might be going on. If something bad and gasket may be issue try going with one of the composite .028” deals. I think they seal better

 

@Street Lethal Will do! I did that once but will expand my spraying... Im about ready to just pull the manifold entirely and redo it..

 

If its pig rich and fresh build, it will have lower vacuum. Need to get it tuned in and rings seated before you start seeing proper vacuum

 

^ Not only that, but, triple check your Base Timing by hand. It may need to be advanced some more. You would see x amount of vacuum with, say, the Base Timing set at 0... but then you would see it jump up as you advance it by hand. The EBL uses Base Timing as a reference point, but some engines like a tad more at idle. I always tell members to set it to 8* or 10* and just be done with it.

- Rob

 

right now my base timing is at 7 ish.. I hit it with a light and it was close enough for now lol.. Going to work on lots in the next couple days. Will keep you posted! Thanks everyone for the help!!!

 

Remember, give it what it wants which is not always what you think it should be. For what it's worth, I run a hotcam 218/228 .525 lift. In open loop it idles smooth @ 750 rpm's with 28 degrees advance and 13.5- 14 afr. Reading the plugs confirms it is happy with this. Trying to idle in closed loop at 14.7 makes it run rough and the exhaust smell will make your eyes water. I run base timing at 11 degrees which reduces cranking time, and with base timing in the .BIN also at 11 it does not change the timing except during cranking. With fuel prices what they are now tuning with a WB will quickly pay for itself. The only downside of a good tune is it makes your back tires wear out faster. Good luck and happy tuning!

 

So this morning I decided to pressurize the TPI intake with 5 psi using a baked beans can shoved into the intake boot. Found out my throttle body leaks, but I also noticed that my crank case had a bit of pressure in it. I blocked the PCV ports on the vlve covers and when I un plugged one air rushed out... Im guessing that means my intake manifold gaskets are leaking??? (or just valve seals letting the pressure through ((brand new seals though)) Also potentially letting oil into the cylinders causing oily plugs with leaky (on the inside) manifold gaskets ??

 

Not time to panic yet. I just looked at your data log. You need to get your tune in the ballpark and things will look much better.

 

Unless you loosened all of the intake rocker arms so that the intake valves were closed, you pressurized the entire engine. You tested/proved NOTHING.

And didn't I read that you used .015" steel shim head gaskets with aluminum heads? Last I checked, that's a NO-NO.

 

What is your fuel pressure? At idle with 24# injectors I would expect a PW of around 2 or less at idle. And SA of 24 or more with that cam. MAP I would expect around 50 or so when running good.

 

@NoEmissions84TA I used felpro 1094 HG that say they are good to use with Aluminum. Did a lot or research erch on it. I did take my intake off and sure enough my manifold bolts were loose. They were at about 18-20lb ft I took them to 34lb ft

@Larry my FP is at 44psi What do you mean by 2 at idle with the PW. Do you mean PW vs voltage or something else?

Thanks!!

 

@Larry @RBob After tightening my intake manifold bolts I fired up the engine. Was rough at 1st but smoothed out once CL kicked in. Would you mind looking at my new log file? Also, found bad ground wire to o2 fixed that...

 

This is good advice. If you had that much oil in the cylinders your exhaust would be blowing smoke and smell like burning oil. Misfires will fool an o2 sensor because they measure oxygen. Unburned oxygen reads as lean to the ECM. Spark plugs never lie.

Your SA at idle is only 16-21. it needs more. Mine loves 28 but you have to figure out what yours likes. Your injector pulse width at idle is 4.6-4.7 mS. With 24# injectors I would expect to see less than half that at idle. Double check your injector flow scalar.

 

Your newest datalog is showing the same scenario, averaging 59-kPa (roughly 12" of vacuum at idle) which sweeps between 62-kPa and 57-kPa, and you are also showing an extremely Rich AFR, 108 BLM. Like I was saying earlier, either the cam is larger than you realize, or you have a vacuum leak somewhere. Curious, did you set lifter pre-load, or did someone else? Your TCC light is also being triggered despite running a manual transmission, and your Launch Mode is also inadvertently being triggered... all due to setting and threshold, easy fix. Your timing is still jumping around at idle though, between 25* and 17* (this is due to your kPa being too high at idle, its playing tug of war with your Idle State setting). These are easy fixes that will need to be addressed, though...

- Rob

 

@Street Lethal Thanks for the info! I have checked everywhere for a vac leak. I did find that my intake manifold bolts were loose. Also my throttle body leaks at the stem on both sides. not sure it would leak out that much vacuum though. I fixed all vac issues (minus throttle body) before logging this file...

I set my lifter preload 1\2 turn past 0. How can I fix the Launch and TCC stuff? I will continue to look for vac leaks

 

Well right now, if you are absolutely positive that the cam is just a mild grind... then hold off on the Launch Mode trigger, as it is originally set to trigger at 60-kPa, which is why yours is going on and off, because your sweeping back and forth both above and below 60-kPa during your idle. Once you find the possible vacuum leak, it will go off by itself because your kPa should be hovering around in the 40's somewhere with the cam specs you provided earlier.

- Rob

 

Soooo.. I decided to put a timing light on the engine while being "timed by the ECM" and I noticed it was at base timing?? So I ran the engine with ECM disconnected and it was at base timing as well! Sounds like I have a bad connection to something in the distributor... the computer throws a code when I disconnect the normal wire to adjust timing so I know that one is good. Im guessing if my timing is that far off my vacuum will rise when corrected..

 

Yes, vacuum will rise when you increase Base/Initial...

- Rob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

^ Not only that, but, triple check your Base Timing by hand. It may need to be advanced some more. You would see x amount of vacuum with, say, the Base Timing set at 0... but then you would see it jump up as you advance it by hand. The EBL uses Base Timing as a reference point, but some engines like a tad more at idle. I always tell members to set it to 8* or 10* and just be done with it.

 

lol yeah.. Well I checked the base timing, but didnt expect the controlled timing to not be working

 

The TCC light is on as it is also used for signify reverse lockout. Once over 5 MPH it will go off showing that the reverse lockout solenoid is in the lock position. If your T56 has the solenoid can use the TCC output (A7) to control a relay that then activates the lockout solenoid.

As for launch mode, there is a delta MAP parameter that will trigger it. This value is too low in the BINs provided, set it to 15 KPa or so.

RBob.

 

So I have checked everywhere for vac leaks. Cannot find any! I am still getting erratic SA when idling. When i give it gas the engine smooths out and the vacuum goes up (actualy runs very well). Is the fact that my timing is jumping from 12-20 cause the low vac (? If so, How can I stabilize it. Seems like the computer is causing the low vac because it wont allow the car to idle where it should in terms of SA. I need help

 

I think I just emailed you, in case it wasn't you, and for our readers:

Can disable it by zeroing these two tables:

SA - Idle Low Compensation
SA - Idle High Compensation

RBob.

 

Told you earlier to triple check your Base Timing by hand. If you disconnected the EST as I mentioned, and your Base Timing was telling you the correct setting that is matched to your Initial SA in your Bin, and you're still having low vacuum issues, then there is a strong possibility that your Harmonic Balancer has slipped, and is giving you the wrong Base Timing reading with the timing light. This is why I told you to advance the Base Timing by hand with the EST disconnected, and if the vacuum goes up during idle, then you found your issue..

- Rob