I've been looking at EBL logs and I have noticed on a lot of my "casual/light" shifts I never get into AE. This results in a consistent lean spike in my WB just after that would seem to be solved with AE. My VE tables certainly aren't perfect. But they are getting there and are fairly smooth. This phenomenon might be falsely affecting this range of my VE table so I am curious if this is a commonly witnessed issue. I assume lowering the TPS delta threshold would be the solution?

At the same time this plays into something I have always wondered, which is how people judge the WB delay when looking at logs. Do you accept that the "accurate" WB readings are going to be a certain amount after the event you are trying to concentrate on? IE throttle lift, throttle applied, etc. Because if the delay is substantial enough this could be a result of DE pulling too much right? I am running a Innovate LC2 WB with a filter of 30% in the EBL WhatsUp preferences.

Below is a example of what I am seeing. For reference I can engine brake in these same areas of VE table and not get lean pops with WB in the 13s/low 14s. So that kind of verifies in my thinking that this is AE related and not just a VE problem.

 

For reference here is a "spirited" shift that sees AE and no lean spike. And then also my current AE trigger settings.

 

Non-EBL user here.... but on my 7730, for both AE TPS and AE MAP, I lowered my thresholds for entry to get rid of the lean spikes.

AE TPS went from 1.17% to .39% (the minimum you can set). It may not seem like much, but on my Miniram I notice it on the "casual/light" acceleration.

AE MAP went from 3.13 kPa to 1.5 kPa. Again, it seems trivial, but I can feel it via seat of the pants.

I used to see lean spikes into the 15-16:1, but now, I stay in the 13's.

Also, keep in mind that there will be a delay between the event and the WB reporting due to the time it takes for the exhaust gases to get to the O2 sensor. For the NB response that the ECM reacts to, 7730 has an adjustable parameter for that. But on the WB, you just need to make a mental note about it.

 

I will definitely give that a shot. I have the same basic parameters available to me. Delta TPS % threshold and Delta Map Qualifier. Currently set to 1.96 % and 2.19 Kpa.

That confirms my suspicion on WB reporting. I had always tried to mentally remember that. I try to look for obvious readings to kind of judge what the delay is roughly.

 

The only thing to be mindful of though is that the lower delta-MAP threshold can potentially trigger a delta-MAP AE event simply by going from park to drive, or in your case from neutral to gear with a manual trans.

If the delta-MAP AE is big enough, it can cause a bog or cause the engine to want to try to stall due to the sudden transient rich condition. So you have to find a happy medium.

 

I think I am going to make an adjustment to the TPS % first and see what that does. I agree, letting out on the clutch without throttle input could trigger AE if MAP dropped quick enough and that could cause a stumble/rich condition at a moment you definitely don't want issues like that to occur.

 

Just read your signature... that thing will haul a$$ once you get it dialed in.

 

It is pretty impressive even with the tune in its current form. I still have the MSD limiter at the old value setups value. A conservative 5100 ish rpm. Every time I drive it I am reminded how I need to increase it. Because it pulls like a freight train the whole way into the limiter with zero seat of the pants drop off in power. Before I know it I am all over the limiter even though by feel I should definitely be holding the gears longer. I will probably raise it little by little now that I am more comfortable with the WOT AFRs and setup as a whole. I've got a thread over in alternative port sub for the build that kind of goes through all the mess I had with the setup. After the work I did this past winter the engine is a whole different animal. Drivability is there. Power is there...always...I am beyond happy with the engine setup now.

The fact I am actually making progress with the tune versus before I was constantly chasing my tail at every step. That alone makes it all worth it. I am excited to really get AE where it should be. I know just by blipping the throttle my PW for AE isn't dialed in but wanted to get my VE tables a bit more in check before really getting into AE. Then noticed this phenomenon.

 

AE can be very tricky to get correct... believe me... lol.

I was bummed when I found out the EBL for the 7730 got discontinued because I thought I had come up against the limit of what the 7730 was capable of performance-wise. So I was start to contemplate buying an EBL to get to the next level after everything I had read about and people raving about how good it was.

But then (through shear force of will I suppose) I found some more "advanced" fueling parameters in the 8D code perusing through Tunerpro and the S_AUJP xdf file which seemed to unlock performance potential of the 7730 that I never would have guessed existed. I feel like I've finally achieved the "perfection" that I've sought after for the ~20 years I've owned the Miniram.

 

AE is one of the things I never was able to really get into previously. With all the issues I chased with the previous build I just never could get anything dialed in enough to be able to move to that step. But through all the years of roaming the threads in here and the EBL thread I have absorbed somewhat of a understanding of it as a concept. It will just be a matter of implementing that.

If I can get this engine to increase responsiveness even a little bit from where it is at it will be a win. Will just be a lot of trial/error and datalog studying.

 

Dealing with the same thing getting pop when getting on it sometimes only thing is I'm still on 8D, haven't made the jump to SAUJP yet though want to learn the ropes first

These are my AE values any help on alleviating the lean pop appreciated, mild 350 with a HSR intake

 

What you should do is go to the constant... (it may not be available in the non-S_AUJP though)

AE-TPS, Forced Index for Entry into Pump Shot Table 0x539

Then change it to 0. Factory is 3.

There's another table (one that you're showing)

AE Delta TPS PW Factor vs Async Pulse

In this table, the ECM will not always start at the first row (row 0). It'll sometimes start at row 3, which gives you a smaller AE pulse width. In your case you have 0 in row 3, so you may not be getting anything.

But this is what that constant is for.

Certain conditions have to be met to start at the first row. When you change that constant to 0, what that'll do is ensure that every time you enter delta TPS AE, you get the maximum AE delta TPS pulse width by starting in the first row. After doing this, you may need to set your AE delta TPS scale factor and PW scale factor back to the factory values of .125

Also, you need to set your maximum AE pulse width to 15 ms (factory for 4th gen LT1). Stock AUJP is 5 ms.

The other thing (and you may need SAUJP for this)....

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...osed-loop.html

If your BLMs are currently really close to 128, you can try what I did in this link. I'd be very curious to see if it has the same positive effects on someone else's car (especially with a short runner intake). I was saying in another thread, the mods in that link seem like they "unlocked" a performance potential of the 7730 that I would never have guessed existed.

Other than that, overall I'd recommend using the 4th gen LT1 AE tables. If you want, PM me your email and I'll send you my Miniram start bin. It'll have my latest AE settings in it (which are basically the LT1 with some minor mods).

 

Stealth: Yeah I am basically no help with factory computers. I jumped straight to the EBL when I got into tuning. I would follow what ULT has done on it and suggests.

ULT: Didn't you have headache with knock sensors and false readings? I constantly do. Been a few drives since I pulled some plugs to check for evidence of detonation but I am seriously considering putting a 90* fitting on my sensor. My last drive I was seeing 1-2 SA being pulled at 60 mph 1700ish rpm 0-10% TPS with SA only at 28. There is no way it is knocking in that light load scenario with me running premium fuel and having aluminum heads. It isn't like I am pushing a 12+:1 comp ratio.

 

Yeah

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...tard-real.html

I resolved it through a combination of examining the data (as you're doing), getting a new Delco sensor, and being extremely careful about how much torque I put on it.

 

Maybe a new delco sensor with a tad extra thread tape and inch-lbs torque wrench will be the trick then.

 

Yeah, I think the more non-stock you get, probably the more the knock sensor sensitivity comes into play... headers, roller rockers, etc... probably able to more easily fool the sensor with the various noises they make that wouldn't be present on a bone stock engine.

Given how dangerous knock can be to an engine, you're going about it the right way... taking data, carefully examining it, etc.

Just check your plugs too... when knocking occurs, you can get a salt and pepper appearance on the ceramic. As in that link, that was also one of the clues I was looking for to determine whehter I was getting real knock or not.

 

Do you happen to remember which Delco knock sensor part number it was you went with?

 

According to my invoice, it was 21392 (213-92).

 

For troubleshooting with the EBL I rarely hear anyone mentioning the dump log. It gives much more information than the WUD. You can see when and how much AE fuel you are getting.

 

Yep I use it quite frequently. Had this been a scenario where AE was being commanded and I was still getting the lean spike I would've went straight to the dump log. When I was referencing my knock counts a couple post up I had been looking at the dump file studying knock counts more.

 

I've been busy with other things and have been spending more time thinking about this then actually trying/doing anything.

But I was looking at my VE tables and was wondering if I am seeing my AE situation affect my VE table. Specifically at the rpm areas where slow shifting and taking off from a stop are. y

Keep in mind my VE table runs pretty well but certainly has room for improvement.


You can see the raised hump I am talking about here. I wonder if my VE learns are trying to make up for this lean spike I have at shifts and initial tip in. Or is this hump a common site to see in VE tables?

 

One thing you should do to somewhat decouple your AE from your regular fueling is to turn on the switch for "Reset INT when AE in progress".

That's another thing the early 92-93 LT1's had as well. It'll keep your fuel trims from getting affected by the extra fuel delivered during an AE event.

It's actually astounding how much from the $DA3 applies literally verbatim to a short runner intake using $8D (I mean literally copying and pasting values). I probably would have never gotten to where I'm at on my car if I wasn't able to leverage all the R&D that GM did on the early MAP LT1's.

 

Keep in mind I’m running strictly open loop. So that’s either helping or hurting me lol.

Ive considered going ahead and getting a heated narrow band to install to give closed loop a shot now that the setup is running smoothly.

 

that's gotta be pretty amazing feeling after all that time. looking back I remember how nice 8d was on my basically stock car, playing with lean cruise enabled watching it go to 16:1 seamlessly on my first wideband. to me ​​it felt better than my newer dbw ls car just diving around. but once I got some mods and started tuning it, it all went to crap and I never could get it to drive right.(totally lack of tuning skills on my part) switched to code59 even thou it was na because it was so basic I could make it drive nicer haha. so long ago thou.


sadly I have a p4 eb in a box on the floor infront of my car to install and try turning that. but seems to always be something else broken that comes first.


the knock sensor question did remind me. I kinda have close to the same as the OP is working with, just a p4 ebl but still a 406, same cam with rollers, he's got better heads and I have a sr. but still, knock sensor I'm sure I'll have the same issues. ebl has the option to use the lt4 knock sensors and external knock module. in fact that might a little easier to wire up than trying to use the stock mencal. it's has a manual 305 chip in it, so a knock sensor from the 305 would seem to be just a headache waiting to happen. maybe the bigger bore lt4 with roller rockets might help?

just thinking out loud.