Im talking about the pc programmer emulator"add on".Does the engine have to be off for it to download into the eprom?

 

For the emulators I've seen to use with a GMECM, yes, you have to turn the ecm (engine) off when loading your change. There are some high rent ones that are processor controlled that can, but they get seriously expensive.

 

This says it works with the ecm powered up.this is from the xtronics site--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adapters
Free upgrade with purchase of any adapter!

Eprom Emulator Adapter for emulating 2716-27256 Order I-Emulator $89.95
Order info
A static RAM that acts like an EPROM 2716 - 27256 Instant programming time - often used to work with car computer chips. Simply, plug the emulator into the programmer, plug the cable to the ROM socket and you can change memory locations while your equipment is powered up. Emulator comes with it's own software that allows editing in Hex and ASCII.
You can make a cigarette lighter adapter for the programmer -- center negative - and yes, it will run on the 10-14 V automotive power.

If you want to extend the cable, make a cable that will plug in between the Pocket programmer and the emulator circuit board.

We have a software fix available - This fix will 'break' older versions of the emulator and should only be used for the Rev 2A board.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this something new or what?

 

I heard that if you try to update it while the engine is running, the ECM will go into limp home mode. And also, if the ECM tries to access the particular memory location that you're editing, the car will probably die.

I'm going to be getting the Pocket Programmer with the emulator in the next week or so, and writing my own editor/scan tool. If anyone would be more interested in the emulator I can keep you posted when I try it.

 

I would buy it if it can update with the engine running.If not then I'll just get the car adapter for the pc programmer.I have a laptop and will have eeproms so all I would have to do is turn off the car & change the chip.I read the thrasher buick site and those boys change chips while the car is running.They say it works so I would think if you dont make changes like injector constant table effecting blm this emulator could work.Things like timing is not learned to the ecm so it could be changed.I would like to know more about this "emulator."

 

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this message board about what an emulator is and what an emulator is used for. Here is the deal when trying to do EPROM updates while the ECM has power; the ECM tries to read from memory and the emulator tries to read or write memory. The data gets garbled and it looks like a corrupt EPROM.............then limp home mode kicks in. Updating the EPROM or emulator while the key is on and or engine running will NEVER work reliably. But yes, what xtronics states is true, but it has nothing to do with taking a static RAM and trying to access it from two devices.
Someone else posted a message about holding the ECM reset line low while modifying the emulator RAM. This works correctly cause the ECM isn't doing anything even if the key is on. This is the basic "GO" control for the ECM. Overall, an emulator will never do reliable updates with the key on and/or engine running.

 

Since you know whats going on here then help me out.If the xtronic emulator works then could you explain what it does?I just got an email from xtronics stating that its a realtime update to the prom with the engine on.You said it works but said updating the prom with engine on will never be reliable.Then what is this thing for?

 

My purpose for getting it is to be able to update my PROM settings without having to remove and reburn a chip (wearing out the socket, etc..) That way I can just pull over, update the emulator, drive, etc.. and when I feel like I got a solid set of settings, burn it to a chip and keep that in there. Or I could just make an update and run the emulator down the 1/4 to see the difference. It speeds up development time.

 

Well, your comments have sparked an interest. I re-read what Xtronics claims and went to there website to see what there emulator consists of. It looks like one I built for a project a few years ago. It is very simple to build.........but has limitations. The same issues I wrote about earier. I sent xtronics a few questions to see if my assumptions are true. Usually, an emulator that allows changing data while the processor is running requires a lot more (read more expensive) hardware. I don't know, maybe Xtronics consists of some smart people that designed a better solution. I'll let you know if they send me some answers. As of right, I don't think there emulator will work.
If anyone has tried updating data with key or engine on using the Pocket Programmer.........please post how it worked.
Thanks,
J

 

cold'nt I just get a ribbon cable,put prom sockets on both ends.Have one socket go to the memcal zif,the other socket between the pc programmer and the prom.The ecm would read from the prom through the cable.Then turn off the car,fire up the pc programmer and electronic erase the prom and update it.This would be the same thing ,right?

 

I hear you about wanting to speed up ECM engine update times. I think this is something that lots of people have wanted for GM ECMs for years. The is a company that have a system for an Australian based GM ECM that is real time programable. It will cost around $500 US. Probably about the same price as the Honda programmer.
I'll post what I find out about the emulator. Just keep in mind that even if it is possible to use this emulator, the software is crude. Not just a simple up/down arrow key for fuel, timing, etc. It would still require one to know where these values are located in the EPROM image.
What ECM(s) do you want to this type of tuning on?
J

 

formula5, Yes, that *Could* work. The problem is the +5V needed for the emulator (RAM). If you turn off the engine key, you powerdown the emulator and ECM microprocessor. Next, you power up the emulator (RAM) which has it's +5V line possibly tied or not tied to the processor's +5V line. Problems could arise. I think it is highly likely that no problems would arise. I have to look at my circuit diagrams of the ECM though. What ECM are you using? As an aside, we are now taking about updating with the key OFF.........not realtime. This is much easier than real time.
Just like the 94/95 TPI engines

 

165 ecm ,I seen klamier(or whatever)site.That is all good but if this emulator works it will only be $89 instead of krapmier's $500.Could'nt the ecm ram be refreshed when the prom changes occur,or something.I'm going to get more info on this emulator too,

 

formula5, what you stated above about programming with the key OFF should work according to my schematics.
J

 

Thats what I was thinking.And if this emulator dont work in realtime with engine on then I build my like device.

 

There are many ways to build an emulator......the type Xtronics chose to build is one of the simplest..........that's why it is $89. It won't do realtime programming and the software cycle of editing the bin, saving it to disk, loading into the emulator is crude and DOS based. It only saves the time of removing the EEPROM and re-installing it and minimal wear on some leads. Not to mention it is tough on starters.
I have never used Kalmaker hardware/software but if it uses well coded (reliable) Windows software and allows realtime programming, then it is worth $500 whether people will pay that or not. I don't know the Kalmaker people............but I can tell that they have a lot of time and money involved.
You mentioned making your own device.....what ECM are you using? Do you plan on building a more advanced emulator. Somewhat in between the PP emulator and the Kalmaker hardware?

 

http://www.r71camaro.homestead.com/Emulator.html


Check it out.

BW

 

This emulator stuff is pretty interesting.

If it helps information-wise, I offer the following:
When I put together a little adapter that allows selection of high-and-low halves of a 29C256 for a 165, I could do it on the fly, but the car stumbled a little bit during the transition. Then it would be fine. On another note, when using my ZIF adapter, I could swap out chips on-the-fly while the car was running, and the ECM would just visit limp home mode while the chip was out. When I put the other one in, everything went back to normal.

Hope this helps, seems like updating the EPROM image for an emulator would have similar impact during the transitions. May or may not be relevant, but for what it's worth.

-Craig

 

Craig, what you wrote sounds like one instance of what could happen when updating data on the fly. In the case of switching between the upper and lower 16K that seems OK. I do not recommend pulling and inserting EPROMs while the key is on or engine running. This is hot swapping parts. You run the risk of blowing out the gates (inputs/outputs) of various chips with high probability. Yes, it will work sometimes but not reliably. If the gates don't blow, then yes the ECM will resume reading the EPROM as usual and will go out of limp mode as long as the EPROM data is valid (a good bin). Thanks for the input on this.
J

 

There are some rumors about how Kalmaker come to be, and one we'll just say involved walking out of Holden (GM), with a large box of test gear, and figuring how to market it. In the following years they have had some really talented folks work at just making it none hac able.

 

So craig do you think this pc programmer emulator add on works realtime w/engine on.IF a game system can be emulated then a prom should'nt be that hard.

 

I never was able to get mine to work. All I've heard is the it will work on some honda for loading with the engine running.

 

Thanks for the response Grumpy. I know there are many who are trying to make the PP emulator work. I don't ever see this emulator working properly with the engine running. That is, causing no faults and working reliably. For me, that is the only way I like to update the ECM data. I am not big on wondering if the data got written correctly and trying to figure it out via a scanner. I like to do a verify on the data after programming. The other issue that the emulator won't deal with is the checksum.......probably have to use the $AA bypass. It is a crude work around.
For all of the people wanting to use the PP emulator, my question is this........what do you gain by updating data, having the ECM go into limp home (and cause the engine to stumble, maybe stall), wonder if other data is messed up because of the change? I do see some good sides to the emulator...........tuning with the key on engine not running.

 

Screw it I just get the car adapter for pc programmer.If I'm going to have to pull over to power down then I can stick my fat hand down in the pass floor and swap chips.Besides I can turn off my engine and change chips before the stoplight turns green.

 

what about that econorom3 device?Can it burn changes to the prom or will I still need to use a burner?Gumpy,do you still have the emulator?If so wanna sell it?

 

I just got a response from Xtronics. They said that sometimes the data can get messed up. It still seems worth it to try with the key on and engine off though. I don't know anything about the ecorom3 thing. Where can I find out more about it?
J

 

check out the link posted above.

 

It seems that he had all of the problems I was thinking about. The PP emulator would have the same fits. This is not to say it won't work, it will work sometimes. It just isn't reliable. As mention on that web page. I would not try to load a new bin while driving. Basically, it is like Craig Moates talked about in another thread about the engine stumbling. I am not saying not to try it. It will work sometimes, sometimes it won't. It is good for loading a new image with the key off just not with the engine running. Pay close attention to the reset line thing. This is what makes it possible to load the bin reliably. It keeps the processor from trying to access the PROM when the emulator is loading.
cheers,
J

 

Damn this gave me an idea, what if you used something like the Prompaq. Simply switch to a "safe" chip, update the bin in the emulator then switch back to the emulator? It might be a winning setup if you could manage to find a prompaq.

Which reminds me, I have a prompaq for the smaller proms, the number escapes me right now, I bought it with the understanding that it would work with TPI, only to find out later that it was only the bastard child '85 TPI prom setup. So if anyone is working on a project that could benefit everyone, and would like it, drop me an e-mail let me know what your working on and I might let it go for shipping cost.

 

There are some rumors about how Kalmaker come to be, and one we'll just say involved walking out of Holden (GM), with a large box of test gear, and figuring how to market it. In the following years they have had some really talented folks work at just making it none hac able.

Grumpy I heard the same rumour as well and asked the guy ,"Ken Young" who rights the software , that question directly and he told me it is not true.
What he said is true that he used to write software for Holden 4 cyl $5D stuff and he did learn how to do it on the fly (Holden were never able to do this without acessing the rear edge connector and lots of gear) with software doing the work.

He has since written kalmaker stuff for all the Australian GM vehicles as well as the 165 and 730 and is also working on LT1 and LS1.
If he "stole" hardware it would not have enabled him to rewrite the code to enable it to do it on the fly.

The adapter (I can email pics and specs if you want to have a look) is just a board with the right resistors for the calpack network and a Sram that holds the program - I reflash the Sram depending upon what ecu I am accessing. it acesses the ecu by the aldl port so I believe all the wizardry is in the program he running on the laptop.

On the fly is the only way to tune.

 

If Kalmaker did snake some stuff from holden then thats cool.Gotta have respect for someone with *****.As long as his setup works.Someone did email me from his site and state after the engine is tuned a prom can be burned .Then the hardware could be removed.So I guess you "could" use it for tuning your other car.I would like to see the software and what tables are defined for my 165 ecm.

As far as the pc programer emulator....
Well even if you can update the prom on the fly then I will still have to import the bin from tc to the emulator.So it will not be true "on the fly." Unless there was a automated program communicating between tc and the emulator.How hard would a program like that be to make?

Bossute,what on the fly device do ypu use.How long have you used it?What are your engine mods?What gains in performance and drivability have you seen.It gets cold in Missouri so is there tables addressing cold starting.

 

You ought to be able to set up a macro or something to allow quick BIN dump from Tunercat to the Eprom Emulator. That'd be a ready-made deal. Just click & drag your timing surface plot, then hit 'F3' or something to update the emulator...

Something like "MacroMagic" would work, I've used it for a myriad of crap...

 

Yeah, this would be cool.

What I'm thinking is, take Craig Moates ZIF to ECM adapter, but add some switches and another ZIF connector, or maybe pins to plug a ribbon cable into it.

You'd also need a buffer to switch between using the first PROM or the second PROM (or ribbon going to enumlator).

Flip a switch, the buffer points you to the first socket. Flip the switch the other way, you get the second socket (or to the emulator).

 

ahhh, the bad old days

 

Nah, these were the good old days. Lots of ideas getting kicked around. Brings back some good memories. I guess we've evolved a little bit, right?

 

Just reminds me of how much I suck(formula5 is one of my old SNs..). It would be cool to contribute something useful. It's about 4 years later and I still dont have the ability to patch in spark/fuel correction & tcc lockup for each gear.

IMO, it's past due.....making additional ecm features...


Was an exciting time though. So much was still unknown.