OK, did a tuneup on my car last night. taking out one of the plugs above my starter and the ratchet hit one of the screws on the back of the starter and shot sparks all over the place so i pulled my hand away. well the ratchet stayed touching the spark plug and the starter and it welded itself to the starter bolt. Got a crow bar and got the ratchet off. finished the rest of the tuneup including putting a heated O2 sensor in. Roll the car out of the garage. turn the key it cranks slow for half a crank and then starts up normally. drive the car up to dominicks, runs great. shut it off and go inside, come back out and go to start the car. cranks halfway and i lose all power. abosluly nothing would power up, no lights, horn anything. leave it there and come back this moring. i get there and the alarm light is blinking. go in turn the key, nothing. take the battery out and go to pepboys, they check out the battery after recharging it and say that it is fine. put the battery back in the car, nothing, no power again. call AAA. while im waiting for them to come the alarm starts to squeak a little like its trying to go off but it doesnt have enough power. after a while i put the key in, turn it to on but dont start it. the fuel pmup comes on, all the dash lights light up. i turn the key and everything dies again. try to jump it off my dads jeep, no dice still no power to anything again. the tow truck gets there. he hooks his jumper cables up turn the key to on fuel pump and all the lights come on again, hit the key and it all dies again. try it again and the starter clicked a few times this time but then it went dead again. try it once more and now no power again. got the car home, she is in the garage right now. any idea whats wrong???????? i think either the battery really is jacked and the pepboys test was wrong or something melted in the starter and its shorting everything out.any advice??? thanks very much.

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1988 IROC-Z L98
License Plate: STG KLR 1
Engine Mods:
Edlebrock TES Headers, Hypertech Chip, Flowmaster Muffler, Intake Airfoil, Removed MAF Screens, MSD-6A, MSD Blaster 2 GM Coil, bored .030 over, Other minor mods
Suspension Mods:
Lakewood Traction Action Lift Bars, Hal Rear Shocks
Trans Mods:
2,500 stall converter, Redline clutches,Heavy Duty Steels, Trans-Go reprograming kit , Heavy Duty 2-4 band, Corvette Servo, B&M Mega Shifter w/ Carbon Fiber Handle (looks sweet in a black car!)
ET: 13.833@99.30

"If you can put it on your car, its fair" Quote By Guido
Foundering Member of the Illinois Overkill Crew (IOC)
www.mfba.org

 

Long? Hardly.

Well, let me take a stab at it. And realize that I am speaking from a schematic from GM for a 1991 Camaro.

Vehicle power is supplied from the battery (and alternator when it's running) from two points. (1) Via a 4 gauge wire from the positive post to the starter solenoid, at which point (same stud) it splits out to all the different accessories (minus those listed in #2), and (2) via an 8 gauge wire from the positive post, it goes to a junction at which point it splits out to the alternator output terminal, the fan(s), fuel pump and ECM.

When your ratchet welded itself to the starter solenoid terminal, it presented a direct short to the battery, discharging several hundred amperes through your ratchet to the engine block, as well as the associated wiring. During that time one of two things probably happened.

1. The positive 4 gauge wire from the battery positive terminal to the starter stud was damaged (broken strands inside the insulation causing it to partially "open", and later permanently "open") or caused a poor connection to the starter solenoid terminal. A much higher resistance may have been created between a connection (wire terminal to starter solenoid stud or battery terminal) allowing a little voltage to pass. In either case, this would cause a poor electrical connection to the starter motor and the rest of the accessories.

2. The ground cable was damaged (the wire strands melted "opened" somewhere inside the insulation due to the excessive current for a long time or a bad connection to where it is attached to the engine block.

Since you stated that you were able to get some things to work (at a much lower voltage), it is possible that not all of the strands of wire melted open, allowing some current to pass, and explain why some things worked a little. Although the remaining few strands may have subsequently burned open after trying to start the car later because of the heavy load that the starter would have presented to it. This would explain why nothing works now.

You may be able to physically check this wire for any abnormalities inside the entire length. Just bend or flex it and see if any areas seem abnormal, checking for any spots where you think the wire may have come apart causing an "open". It should feel very flexable, not solid.

Just a guess. Let us know what you find.

EDIT:

Since you said that nothing works even with a good battery installed, that points to a poor connection somewhere - probably at the battery terminals, the connection where those wires are attached (engine block and/or starter solenoid stud), or the wire themselves! (internally open).

[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited June 03, 2001).]

 

somebody mentioned a fuesable link might have gone out in one of my other posts. i belive that these links are suppoed to protect the main wires in a situation like this. do u concur?

 

Well, that depends how you define "main wires".

There are no fusible links on the main, or primary wire(s) to the starter (too many amperes are needed - almost like a short when the starter is used, so using a fusible link in this situation would not be practical).

But fusible links are commonly used elsewhere - such as the main wire to the alternator output (not all 3rd generation Camaros), the main wire to both fan relay contacts, the main power wire to the fuse box or power distribution.

Besides, you were able to get SOME power after the "meltdown" (e.g. the starter solenoid "clicked" and the alarm was trying to work...). Normally (always?), a fusible link will open immediately, not gradually.

But in any case, it appears you are not getting any power to even turn on the dome light let alone the headlights/starter.

 

I checked out the Ohm reading on both the possitive and negative battery cables, they are both reading 0 Ohms so they are ok. I started to try to check the fuseable links but i ran out of time. there looks to be three fuseable links down there and they are all orange wires. any ideas what thats about??? if its not the battery wires or the fuseable links....think its the starter?

 

this sounds VERY similar to my problem.
i cranked my motor. it went for a few seconds, then i herd a "clunk" and everything went dead

 

Thanks for testing the resistance. At least we know that you have continunity.

Regarding the other wires you inquired about, I can only guess that they are what I originally posted -

I would now guess that there is a lot of resistance under load, probably at the battery terminal (positive and/or negative) or (less likely) at the ground at the engine block or at the other side of the main positive wire to the starter/accessory junction at the starter solenoid stud. Check for clean and tight connections to the battery terminals as well as the positive wire at the starter (clean and tight).


An easy way to check is with a voltmeter. Since you checked for resistance, I presume that you have a voltmeter (a DMM, or digital multimeter being better than an analog, but both will be okay).

Try the following two tests.

1. With a voltmeter connected to the battery positive and negative terminals, what is the voltage when trying to start the car?

What is it when you turn the high powered accessories (lights/fan/etc.) on?

What is it when you turn the lightly powered accessories (dome light, brake lights, parking lights, etc.) on?

2. With the voltmeter connected to a ground (battery or engine or chassis) and the starter solenoid stud positive (where the main positive wire connects to), repeat the above tests with a high load (starting, headlights, etc.) and light load as detailed above.

Having resistance between the main wire feeding the starter will allow some current to pass (powering the accessories, etc.), but the moment that you demand a lot of current, such as when cranking (100-300 amperes), the resistance will be too great to operated the starter motor, thus giving you the clicks of hearing the solenoid operating. This could also mean a dead or nearly dead battery, but as you stated earlier, you had a good power source providing power (a good battery, the Jeep giving a jump start with the engine running (>13 volts) and even AAA). That to me would point to the wiring, especially since you stated that nothing worked, or barely worked.

Let me know what you find.

Regarding the post about the starter working for a few seconds and then going dead - if you're using a good battery, I would guess it was a resistance problem that is intermittant (poor connection as described above). If you're not sure of the batteries' condition, then I'd guess it's time to replace the battery because it has lost its capacity. It has enough capacity to only crank for a short while at which point the voltage suddenly drops allowing only enough voltage to operate the solenoid (thus the "clicks") and not the starter motor.

[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited June 04, 2001).]

 

Stuart Moss is on the right track here.

The area where the ratchet touched probably became very hot and melted some of the wire. Also, you may have accidentally loosened the connection with your crowbar.

Even if there's only one strand of wire left....one strand of wire will still show 0 Ohms on a multimeter.

That one strand of wire is enough to power your car alarm and maybe your fuel pump.

Then you turn the key to start, and the starter tries to draw a couple hundred amps through that one strand of wire. The wire heats up and comes loose. Later, the wire cools and makes partial contact again.

Jack up the car and get at the point where you shorted out the ratchet. You'll probably need a new battery cable, and/or a new starter solenoid.

 

Thank you everyone very much for your help, especially Stuart. The car is back and running!!! my dad worked on it today while i was at class and got it running. he cleaned off all the termials on the starter and the battery and it fired right up. talk about missing the obvious. i think the battery was dead too so that didnt help either, but its all charged up and running great. Since i had just finished the tune-up, she is pulling like a madman. I really wouldnt be surprised if i ran a 13.5 next time at the track. thanks again for the help.