Nathan P

Hello all. First post on any internet form so light me up if I screw up any formalities or pretty much anything.
I searched the form a bit but wasn't really having any luck. Third gens all seem so "personal" and it seems to me that the difference between one thing working or not can be two hugely different problems. So without further ado...
I own a 1982 Camaro Z28 that is very near all stock. It has a carbed 305. I bought it for $700 and haven't put in much towards repairs minus screws here and there and other things of that sort. It's in decent shape considering it's older than myself. The only thing I have replaced that was necessary is the battery. Haven't had any problems keeping charge (minus once when brake switch got moved and left rear lights on (fixed for about 2 months)
Heres some more background... Car is a bit sluggish to start sometimes. Often it'll take 2 or 3 turns and pressing the gas a tiny bit to keep it warm. Once I get it down the street it'll run great. Other times with the same colder weather it'll turn once and be running like a champ.
Another thing that may be involved (or not what do I know?) Is that the ignition lock is broken so I can turn and start the car without the key in the ignition.
Anyways. Here's my issue: last night I was moving my Z28 to my new apartment which I had full confidence it could do. It took 3 starts or so and the starter didn't sound as "sharp" as it normally does (as if the battery was dying). Regardless the car came alive and made it down the street and started running fine. I drove about 4 or 5 miles of regular driving (stopping at lights with max speed of about 50 (but who knows right? Not like the speedos ever work right? Right...?)) when suddenly I felt a loss of power at the pedal and noticed a dim in the lights. I started to pull over and heard a clunk (could have been a rock or something for all I know but it happened). For the sake of detail i had the key in the ignition (since i locked them in once and was pretty upset about it) I stopped, threw the car into park, and tried to start it again but got no response. Blah blah blah ended up towing blah blah blah
So I get it home and started trouble shooting a bit more. Fuses beneath the steering wheel were fine, battery connections were clean and tight, and there was nothing noticeably out of wack. I threw in a freshly charged battery but same issue.
Here are something's working: all front and rear lights work including hazards and brake lights light up when brake is pressed.
Here are something's that DON'T work: when switched to the run position, when switched to the run position the instrument panel lights don't illuminate, I am unable to roll up the windows in the run position. And that's about all I've been able to note so far.
If I go to start the car, I turn the ignition to start the car but I get absolutely nothing. No clicks, no vibrating noises, no panel lights... if I turn on the lights I will hear the buzzer sound even if I'm trying to start the car or on run.
So. Hit me with some ideas? I don't know a whole lot about these as this is my experimental project car, but I'm willing to learn and such. I got a good ol shop manual with me if that helps you help me. I'd like to blame the ignition lock or the ignition switch but I'm not sure what I would be seeing when/with what.
Any and all help is appreciated and I apologize if I screwed up any aforementioned formalities. Thanks all.

W.E.G.

Check connections and condition of battery.

Check all fuses.

Check all grounds.

Check condition of all connectors.

Check integrity and placement of all vacuum lines.

Check integrity of all wiring.

Identify any non-stock wiring (including absence of original wiring).

Check fuel pressure.

Check compression.

Check spark.

Check for any codes.

Go Blue

so, even with the new battery, you are not hearing the starter even click?? The lights going out is normal when you try to start the car as the engine is taking all of the power. If you aren't hearing anything when you turn the key to start the engine, then your starter is either fried or you have no power from the battery. You can check the starter connections and make sure that they are tight. Are all the belts on the engine tight, like for the alternator? If the alternator belt broke, that could have been the noise you heard and would explain why all the lights dimmed and the car eventually died and it would have killed off your battery as the battery wasn't being charged any more. Until you can figure out why you aren't hearing the starter at least click, I would stick with trying to figure that issue out. I'm sure some of the other guys will chime in and add more voltages and resistance specs for this as I don't remember them off the top of my head other than wanting to see around 12-14 volts when you put a voltmeter across the 2 battery terminals.

Nathan P

Thank you both for your replies. Yeah I'll definitely give everything another go. I'm going to inspect the starter a lot closer today once I'm off work.
Yes with my new battery AND with another fully charged battery I will not get any clicking.
Belts all seemed fine... and there. The clunk noise I heard was relatively quiet... hmm if you can imagine like a small screw driver falling from the top of the engine bay to the bottom thats probably about what it sounded like. About the noise level.
additionally the car lost power and THEN the clunk happened. Like I said I could have just kicked up a rock pulling off the road or something I'm not entirely sure.
Since I'm moving all my tools are packed but I lucked out and my shop manual was in my car. Just so happened I found a trouble shooting tree that boils my symptoms down to either a bad starter, a bad ignition switch, or a bad purple wire from the ignition switch.
so another one of my questions would be: would the starter failing cause my car to shut off mid drive?
I have more of an understanding about how a bad ignition switch could potentially do that.
either way I'll get home and take a look at all those things.

Go Blue

I could see the ignition switch being a culprit. Starters don't usually cause any issues once the car is started unless it engages out of blue and locks the flywheel which would be a loud clunk. Or, the ignition switch caused the starter to try and start the engine again because it was bad and that was the clunk you heard, but that would be pretty loud.

PaulyC

You can try and jump the terminals on the starter if you can get to it just to see if that is working but I don't think that is your main issue. What you describe sounds like it could be a short circuit. I would check the fusible links right by the starter, or they may be by your battery I'm not exactly sure the location but you should have some. If you look at the attached schematic, you will see them called out and one specifically between the battery and ignition switch. There are a bunch of them depending on the options. If you do find one is burned out you will need to find and fix the short that caused it.

zed-028

Just out of curiosity, put the front on stands/ramps, put it in park, get under and bridge the starter terminals with a screwdriver. If it begins to crank (leave the key in run) and manages to start, then youve narrowed it down a bit further.

This is a great time to clean those connections while you are under there.

Nathan P

Thanks all of the input! Unfortunately I'm working some 12+ hour days lately... But I'm dedicating this weekend to checking it all out. I went ahead and ordered an ignition starter switch since they were fairly cheap. I'll be getting that in today (gotta love Amazon Prime) so I'll throw that in this weekend and get back to you all.
GoBlue: yeah I have a hard time thinking the starter itself is involved. Again I'm not very savvy when it comes to the electrical side of cars, but I wouldn't think that the starter going out wouldn't prevent me from being able to see the dash indicator lights or roll up my windows. Again just using my limited knowledge judgement id think the ignition starter switch could be more likely given those specific symptoms... right?
Pauly: yeah I'll look into some of those visible links. I was reading up on those yesterday in the manual. I've still yet to fully investigate the starter and maybe it's all connected in a way I don't know about? Either way wouldn't hurt to check it out right?
Zed: You got it! Needs a good cleaning down there anyways...
Thanks all and happy Friday!

Nathan P

Alright so I got some serious work done over here on the Camaro today. Little progress but not much. Here's what I did:
first of all I took a known good battery and charged it up good. We opened up the driver side foot panel and out dropped a Viper alarm system I forgot was in there. We clipped it out entirely since I have no fob or anything for it. Removed a variable too.
I also installed a new ignition starter switch.
afterwards we threw in the new battery and turned attempted to start it. The car was unable to start but I did get power to the dash indicator lights and was able to roll up the windows. However upon turning the key slightly to the start position the buzzer under the dash would buzz and once fully turned the dash lights and power to the windows would cut out and not return. Occasionally with seemingly no pattern the lights and power to Windows would return. We were unable to produce consistent results.
I still have a hard time thinking that the starter is at all involved in this whole ordeal but I'm not having much luck so I'll check it out tomorrow.
Anyone else have any ideas?
Are there any other fusible links I should be watching out for? The battery one was fine. Wiring seemed fine throughout.

PaulyC

When you tried to start it, did it crank normally or nothing at all? The fusible links are all or nothing proposition, depending on you answer to the previous question I'm not worried about those any more. When the windows are not working, do you have 12v at the fuse?

Nathan P

On the few times we got power to lights and the warning lights... we would set to run and check electronics. We were getting power at the fuses. The next part might sound a bit complicated but I'm not entirely sure how else to explain it. <br />let's say the ignition lock being in the run position is 0% turn and turning the key all the way to the limit of start is 100%. We would be getting the buzzer at about 50% of the way between run and that 100% limit. Does that make sense? That basically has never happened. The only time I'd get that buzzer is when my car wpuld die on cold mornings when the carb wasn't quite warm.<br />once we would turn the key the full 100% all lights and power would be lost. Resetting the ignition lock back to lock and trying again would not bring the lights back on. They seemed random on when they would and wouldn't come back on.

Nathan P

So just an update: I went to my parts camaro and pulled out some relays from under the dash. I also swung by Habor Freight and picked up some brushes to clean off any and all connections and grounds I see.
I haven't gotten around to it, but I'm also going to check the starter just in case. I've seen some threads on how to jump the two sides and try to get it to start that way or something (clearly I'm not very familiar) I'm not 100% sure, but maybe that fusible link under there that's causing a short of some sorts? Or something is grounding out or something? Either way I'll be under there anyway cleaning so it's worth a look. I'll let everyone know the outcome.

Go Blue

The "acc" (accessory) position is halfway between start and off on the ignition lock cylinder and the buzzing could just be an alert to let you know that the keys are in the ignition type of deal. You would also have power to roll the windows up and down at that point and listen to the radio. When you start the car, the car diverts almost all of its power to the starter to start the engine and that's why the lights and everything else goes out. To me, it still sounds like an ignition switch or battery power or starter draw issue where you don't have enough power to the starter to start the engine. I'm not fully blaming your battery as a bad starter solenoid can suck up all sorts of power and never even try to start the starter.

In order to jump the starter, take a long screwdriver and basically cross (lay it across) both posts on the start that have wires to them. There will be some sparks if there's power down there and you should hear/feel the starter try to start the engine. You will most likely jump the first time you do it as it will startle you between the sparks and noise. If it starts, with the posts jumped it's most likely the starter needs to be replaced.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sounds to me like a fusible link.

There are 2 of those, at the starter. Each feeds battery to about half of the car. The load in the interior including the ign sw, headlight sw, accessories, etc. is split roughly equally between them.

Pauly's diagram BTW looks to be for some other year car. Similar to yours, but not quite the same.

I'd suggest just replacing them, on general principles. Look at it as, even if it turns out to be a waste of time because they're not bad now, it's better than having em fail some other time (probably soon) when it's likely to be HIGHLY inconvenient.

Nathan P

Thanks for the replies.
GoBlue: yeah I mean the buzzer goes off when you're pushing the key past run towards start. Half way to the end of start ill get the buzzer.
Either way thanks both of you for the input. This is honestly the first electrical issue I've tackled and I'm learning a TON. My next best guess is that the fusible link around the starter is toast. I'll look into it tonight and get back to you guys.
oh and I'll let you guys know how badly I jump.
Thanks again.

Nathan P

Sofakingdom: I just realized I didn't read the first half of your last post. Yeah I'm starting to totally agree. I'm definitely thinking it's the fusible link at the starter.
unfortunately I've had absolutely no time to check it out, but once I finish with the car I'm currently working on I'll be throwing some jack stands underneath and checking it out. Although at this point im pretty convinced the fusible link at the starter is the issue. I found a few threads on another site that talked about it as well as a YouTube video that shows the same exact problem I'm having. I'll link those when I get some time.
unfortunately the sites were a bit hard to find. I pretty much had to start googling potential causes and got a hit on that link at the starter.
I'm amazed that that link could cause such a huge issue. Sounds pretty crazy to me.
Thanks all. I'll have updates soon.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

How so?

It's like if your house had 2 main circuit breakers instead of just one, with half of the house on each... if one tripped, all sorts of things would stop working while others kept going. You might have no oven, no receptacles in half the rooms, and no air conditioning; but the range top, water heater, and the lights in the whole house might still work. Same deal in your car. That's what those fusible links are, the circuit protection for the main feeds into the car. Same thing as a main circuit breaker except they're a kind of fuse instead, so you have to replace them when they blow or just fail from old age.

Electricity is SO simple, it hurts to see people struggle with it. Kind of like math: they put up this mental barrier that says "math is hard", and guess what! that INSTANTLY makes it hard. I'm reminded of some coach that said something like "if you truly believe that you either can or can't do something, you're always right".

Not sure what youtube would have to offer on this subject. Sounds to me like somebody with too much time on their hands piddling around at their keyboard instead of getting up off their butt and fixing their car.

Nathan P

I think my problem was that I wasn't thinking of it as a circuit. I was having a hard time understanding how the starter would affect anything but it all makes wayyy more sense now.

yeah electricity was my downfall but I'm definitely understanding it a LOT more and I'm not so afraid of it now. Haha

Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to get under there and check it out... but I'm so sure that's it. Regardless does anyone know the gauge fusible link I'm going to need for the starter?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

They're color-coded. Most likely, the one you need is "rust"; a sort of brownish-orange yuck shade. If that's what it is/was, just get another the same color.

It's not "for the starter"; it just gets batt power from the end of the batt cable that's hooked up to the starter, and feeds it onward. It's actually FOR THE CAR.

Nathan P

Makes a whole lot of sense. Sorry gents I've had a metric butt ton of stuff to get done these past few weeks. I've had car troubles up the rear end.
anyways... the camaro is in the plans for this weekend. Any help on which website I can get the fusible link i will need from? I havent had too much luck with that.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

You can get fusiable link wire from most auto parts stores.

Nathan P

Hey guys final update. Finally got the chance to wedge myself under the car. Found out that the fusible link next to the starter was toast. There were actually two down there that were burnt to a crisp. Anyways I got like 7 feet worth of 14 gauge fusible link wire from O'Reilly's since that's what most closely resembled the old link. I also grabbed some 12 in case I was wrong.
to those who might be having this issue... I ended up taking the link wire off the starter and pulled that harness up to the top so it would be easier to work on. I took the tape off everything and threw in the new wire then heat shrinked each individual wire and taped the living *bleep* out of it all. I tossed in some aluminum foil between some of the layers of the tape to help protect against heat. Then to top it off I used some of the protective heat wrap around the final bunch.
I've determined that the heat most likely melted the little tape that was around it originally and then just set off the link. So yeah that'll do I'm sure. Itll suck if It blows and i have to replace it again but hey at least it's safe from the heat!
anyway I finished up, reconnected everything, and she started right up. Couldnt have been happier
I just wanted to thank you all for the help. I learned a lot about electricity, wiring, and the car in general. So yeah. Glad I've got a working car now! Thanks!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Great news, happy 4th

Go Blue