Well first off I'm putting my 89 TPI on a 76 block w/79 heads? I was told that could be done by drilling or dremeling out the holes so that the bolt angles will work. Well my question is. I think i once read that there are blocks that you put under the head of the bolt so that they have a flat angle to rest against. I'm not really sure. But does anyone have an Idea about what I'm talkig about?????

 

Yes, they're called angle washers. You can get them from McMaster-Carr and lots of other places.

Why are you downgrading your motor so severely?

 

Look, its the best I can do alright. I don't have **** for money, and I have a 76 4 bolt main, with eagle rods, speed pro forged pistons, 79 heads with 1:94/1:60( I know they aren't to AFRS, but they are the best I can do). All I'm asking for is the block, thanks for that, but If I had the money for a better engine I would get is. So just let me be different and do what I want OK...Trust me if I could throw a LT1 in it I would, but I spent 400 for the block and i bought the rods and pistons, and the heads I got with manley valves for 400....and I saw what the heads ran on. so I'm doing the best I can....You all make it seem like everyone has won the lottery. So I'm sorry if my engine isn't as expensive or as good as what you would do. Sorry if I'm going off it just ticks me off that people make it sound like I'm stuipd because I don't have the best engine set up, its the best I can do...

 

Not a question of "stupid", just a matter of spending your money carefully to get the best you can for it; and of course, never making your car any worse than it came.

Why are you replacing the entire motor in the first place? Is that really the best thing to do in your circumstances, whatever they are? Why not repair the one you have instead of putting one of those disgusting 70s 165 HP pigs in what's supposed to be a fast car, and making it an embarassment to yourself?

 

I've seen this block perform, I'm just adding the rods, and better heads than it had. I was dynod at 300 hp with the carburated intake and headers on it. I've seen what this motor can do. It no like its a POS. I works with what I have, besides I'm a highschool student in a college automotive program. I don't have anything for money, and the engine I have now I know doens't have the power that this one will have. Besides it ran strong in my friends nova, there is no reason why it won't run strong in my camaro, except its going to fuel injection now. You know I don't really care if you think its a pos, if I can get in the low 14's to high 13's with this motor I will be happy. and I will find away to make it happen. OK enough said. I'm not a perfect person, and I don't have money to buy the proper heads or anything. I have to deal with what I have. And I want to be different so just respect me in trying.....

 

Wow.... sorry I tried to be informative. I've only been doing this sort of thing, including building racing motors professionally, since your parents were probably about in grade school. My apologies for attempting to pass along real knowledge acquired by long-term real-world hands-on experience.

Good luck to you!! Don't come back and say you weren't warned when it doesn't run like you seem to think it's going to.

 

Hey snowman, can you tell me the point of asking a question, getting an honest answer, and then biting people's heads off just cuz you don't have the patience to save and get the right parts for your car to make it "perform"? I am also a highschool student attempting to make my car faster, but I am waiting and going to do it the right way so in the future I don't get completely bored with the half-assed attempt at doing it the first time. In answer to your question, RB was right, you can use TPI stuff on a 70's pig.....er, block. You said the engine made a respectable 300hp carbed, so why dont' you just stay carbed and with the better heads you have put on it you'll be more than certain to gain some performance instead of losing it. Besides, it is proven that TPI is more expensive to build than a carbed engine and since you are apparently trying to justify doing "the best you can with what you have" you would be a lot better off staying carb. Good luck man, and remember not to bite the hand that feeds you. Wisedom and knowledge is no exception.

 

well he didnt ask if his engine sucked, he just asked about doin a TPI on it...that said, why do 70's 350 suck? I'm buying one and building it up..it will be carbed.

 

Because they have no compression due to the deep dished pistons, and the heads had no flow and large chambers (no compression) and pathetic quality control so you can't port them or put larger valves in them without a serious risk of them cracking when run on the street. They particularly would crack between the valve seats if you cut 2.02 intakes into them, and they'd crack in the exhaust ports if you even streamlined those, let alone enlarged them.

When we were building fast cars back then, we all would RUN AWAY FROM any head castings after 72 at the latest, and even most of them from 71 up. 69-70 were the years to get. Those of us who built race-winning motors would always laugh at the guys that would use the crap head sand put dome pistons under them, because that combo simply didn't run as good as the better heads with smaller chambers and flat-top pistons. The L98 heads are the first ones since them suitable for a flat-top 350 to equal the potential of the better 69-70 heads such as 186, 041, 492, 292, etc. Any typical 70s smogger heads such as 882, 993, 624, etc. are not worth putting money into.

Of course, part of the reason those 70s motors had no power was the cam. It was the "327 300HP" cam, GM part # ending in 929. Virtually ALL 350s through the 70s had that cam. It sucks. Hopefully whatever cam is in the motor the original guy was asking about will have something better than that in it; but he didn't really say.

The reason he'll be disappointed is because he's taking a long block out that's good for about 320 HP with a decent induction system (i.e. not TPI) and putting one in that was good for about 220 HP with an equally good induction system. With TPI on it, he'll be damn lucky to see 180 HP out of the finished product. Basically he's giving up about 50 HP from an already under-powered car.

 

Yeah, he'll basically be losing power going from carb to EFI(especially TPI) since those blocks were made to have carbs on top of them and not some bottle neck runners. I'm not bashing TPI, but it's not going to do very well if it is put on top of a carbed engine....especially if that engine is running the same cam as with the carb. That'd be a PITA to tune, much less get power out of.

 

ok, i mis read, i thought that you were saying the blocks themselves sucked, but ya i see the point about the heads.

 

So then how do you tune EFI...itsn't that done with the ECU. And I want to know exactly why I will be losing power.....what are the exact reason. I'm not using stock cam. And I'm getting a custom chip burned for the new specs of the head change, and cam. I just don't see why I would be loosing power????? Please by all means tell me EXACTLY why it won't be as productive.

 

What is the lobe seperation angle of your cam, the duration, the lift? EFI cams should be around 112-114 lsa to keep the computer happy. Most carbed cams are somewhere around 110. Yes, you can make it run with a closer seperation angle, but like I said it's a PITA unless you can burn your own chips. Which brings up another point. Is another company burning your chip for you? If you so, you can't expect to gain maximum performance out of your engine if you have some guy sending you some fuel and spark tables just based on the specs of your engine you provide him with. Do yourself a favor and learn how to burn your own chips, you'll have priceless knowledge that you can use whenever you want if you feel you can gain more power out of your setup. It'll especially be beneficial if you decide to go with different heads or cam later on. Tuning EFI isn't done with just the ECM, however. You have to make all the sensors you'd be running work well in conjuction with the ECM so they deliver the best signal to it so it puts out the best performance for your motor. Spend the extra money and get a wide-band O2 sensor. they do wonders in helping you tune your car by detecting if you are running rich or lean and you can adjust your fuel accordingly. good luck

 

Well I don't have my cam specs sheet here, but I think lobe seperation is like 112 or 113. I'll get back to you on that. Yeah a company is doing the chip burning....And I do plan on getting better heads, just when I get the money. These are what I have for now. and where do I find that wide band O2 Sensor? Plus I don't have the money for the PCM burning tools and software, or I would.

 

I would stick to the carb, having someone burn a chip for you will cost as much or exceed the price of buying all the parts you need to burn your own forever!

Carbs are inexpencive and easy to tune. No computer to burn chips for, no 500 piece intake runners, lol. Just a $100 intake and a $100-200 carb and your in business!!!

All my motors have been carbed, so with this car I am trying to keep EFI with my up coming 400 build, and I will be leaning on the knowlegde of members of this board to help me out when the time comes.

Dont take anything over the internet personally, everyone is here to help you. The only time I have seen them make fun of or tear down someone is when they put a 3ft wing on the back of their car...

 

Yeah man, if you are wanting power and are on a budget, anyone will tell you that carb is the way to go. You don't have to worry about a computer, you can tune and adjust with a $.50 screwdriver and some jets or a timing light...no biggie there. You don't have to worry about tuning a chip everytime your car takes a dump on the slow side. Why are you trying to keep TPI anyways? I'm not flaming on your idea here, but seriously dude, would it not be better to keep the PROVEN combination of parts (i.e. carb and whatnot) and add better parts and know you are getting better performance instead of downgrading. Honestly, if you have TPI stuff, sell it and buy yourself a decent carb and you'll be more than pleased with the results. You'll have an inexpensive, powerful motor that is easy to work on. And later on down the road, after you get done with your college training stuff and start gettnig paid for working on engines, you can do a major build on an EFI setup of your choice without worrying about too much of a budget. Just some friendly advice, hope it works out for ya.

 

Ok, great point, well taken!!!!! Well first off, if I go to carb, what will I do with the computer and stuff like that???? What will I need to make that swap???? what intake, and what carb???? Thanks for the help guys, and I see your points!!!!

 

You can actually completely get rid of your computer if 1) you don't have an HEI distributer or ignition system. 2) you dont' have an auto. The computer is used to lock up the torque converter when you are cruising around which in turn gives you better gas mileage and keeps heat from being generated in the clutch packs. However, you can just get past the whole thing because there is a tech article about how you can rig a switch to automatically lock up the TC so you can keep your mileage and whatnot. But you also have to keep your computer.

As for carbss there is a whole discussion going on at the carb forums about whether or not you can put a mechanical secondary carb on a car with HEI and not worry about changing any of the ignition components. Check it out.... https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...18#post1666618

there is tons of info on what you would be looking at doing by going carb. Other than that, just get you a single plane or dual plane manifold that matches the bolt pattern of your heads (yearwise of course) slap a Holley or Q-Jet carb on and go. I'd personally go holley if you can do it, they are a cinch to tune and whatnot. The q-jet are good, just rather complicated and misunderstood. Just be sure to match your cfm to the output of your car. In the carb world, too much can be a bad thing and make your car an animal until it reaches the sky in rpm.

 

Well...Lets just say will i be able to keep my Cruise control with the carb???? And well I still don't under stand why I would loose performance with the TPI over the carb???? I would that fuel injection would be better....Not only do I want power, I want decent mileage too...and I have a manual tranny so thats not computer controlled. I don't want to loose cruise control and stuff. I'm not sure if its HEI or not. But I think so. I just really want to know exactly why TPI will rob me horsepower, and why carb would gain me!!!!

 

simply because the components you have are made to work in conjunction with a carb, and not EFI, much less TPI. If you want EFI period, I would suggest TBI. It is amazingly misunderstood as being a nonperformance oriented intake system, but that's wrong. And it's really easy to work on as well. Yes you can keep cruise control if you have a carb, and if you dont' have it already I think Chevy High Performance or car craft did an article abotu how to install cruise control on a carbed engine....a '69 Camaro I think. i'll check on that one for ya. TPI just won't work in conjunction with what you are currently running with. It's kinda like putting a 390cfm carb on top of a big block with a cam that revs to 9K, huge heads, and an amazing exhuast system. YOu have to build engines to work well with the parts you are putting on it.....you can't just slap some old stuff together and expect it to run like the wind.....unfortunately it isn't that easy.

 

I agree with the above, that if you're set on EFI, take a look into TBI. Throttle body injection definatly does not mean non-performance as many will claim (I'm talking about TBI in general, not the L03). It's cheap, its reliable, and its easy to work on. Quite frankly, when I blew my intake manifold gasket last wednesday I was damn glad I didnt have to dig through a TPI just to replace a $15 gasket. Holley even makes a well flowing TBI (designed for 454's) for around $200 if I remember correctly. I honestly dont know what you would have to do as far as the computer though; check the TBI board if you're really interested.

As far as cruise control, at least in my car (92) the CC is controled by a completly separate computer, so I dont think it is directly tied to the ECM.

- Mike

 

Thanks for backing me up Mike. But if you are talking about the 2" bore Holley 670cfm unit, you are mistaken as to the price. Unfortunately they are closer to $350-400 now. However, he could very well just get a 454 TBI which is the same thing and if he finds it in a junkyard for like $10 and gets a $15 rebuild kit, he'd be set. Yeah, L03 is crap, and that is what most people think of when you say TBI. Do a search on my name and you'll find a post I started a while back to see if there was anyone in the 12's with TBI. There was, and even someone in the 9's with an AMC. Good stuff.

 

OK well, say I go for TBI, would it in fact match up well with my current computer, that way I can keep EFI????? Which would be better, EFI or carb???? What would it cost for both???

 

HEI only with ECM? I have HEI but no ECM, is that normal?

 

Yeah I was referring to the 454 tbi..I could've sworn you could get a holly version for less than $200 though, that was over 3 years ago though. I would definatly believe your numbers over mine.

TBI will absolutly not match up with your current TPI computer, I can at least tell you that. You may be able to get it to work with a throw-away L03 computer with a custom chip though, which can be found for practically nothing. The actual TBI will bolt up to any typical carb intake with an adapter plate however. They look so similar in fact, that my dad still calls my TBI a carb lol.

My personal recomdation however is to browse around the TBI board for a days or two. Its definatly doesnt perform like MPFI (its 80's wet induction technology), but like I said earlier it has the benifits of reliability, price, and ease of working with.

Anyways, I hope I didn't say anything too stupid in my post-superbowl post (GO PANTHERS!!!) lol. Back to supporting the sponser of the best comercials haha.

- Mike

 

Ok this is going back to the TPI and 79 heads set up....will i be loosing horsepower because of the bigger combustion chambers, and how would TPI not help in the flowing of air and fuel into the heads???? I still don't understand!!!

 

what heads are you going to run? whats been done to them? Got that cam card yet?

No matter what 79 heads you have they are going to be poor flowing and fairly weak castings with 76cc combustion chambers. This will result in low compression. Your TPI heads were 58cc if on a 305 0r 64cc if they were on a 350. 64-76 cc easily loses a full point of compression, and if you putting 76cc heads on dished pistons you going to have ~8.0:1 which doesnt make power without a supercharger/turbo. It also makes most performance cams too big!

The problem with TPI is the long tube runners(LTR) they wont make any power typically beyond 4500 rpm, Where as a carb will let you go as high as your intake is set up for....idle-5500, 2500-6500, or even 3000-8000rpm. They vary more but those are some examples.

For what your building, on the budget you have, you need to either sell your TPI to help fund your carb/intake. Or just buy your carb/intake and keep your TPI for later.

Just trying to help...

 

You might not have HEI. From my understanding, with an HEI ingition setup, the computer controls the spark and timing curves as it gets signals from the TPS, knock sensor, O2 sensor, etc. When it senses a leaner condition, it adjusts timing in the upper rpm to gain the best performance of the combustion chamber, i.e, making more overall power. I dunno if you can run HEI without the computer. I'd have to check that one too.

 

If you like building engines do a little experiment. Build what you are talking about with your '79 heads and TPI, get it runnig properly and get it dynoed. Drive around for however long you have to and then when you save up for a dual plane and a say Holley carb, get that running and have it dynoed as well. You'll see immediately what we are talking about. TPI is going to hinder your motor significantly in every respect because it was not made to run with dished pistons and those heads, simply put. A carb is. Now if you get some 081 or 083 heads, (I think I am right on my numbers here), those are the TPI heads with 58cc and 64cc combustion chambers so you those would work a lot better. However, you'd still have your cam to contend with, in which case it'd have to be computer friendly to get it to run. And once you get all that stuff done, it doesn't mean **** unless you can get a chip burned yourself to take full advantage of whatever setup you are running.

 

how can you tell if its non HEI? My coil is on top of the distributor, its an Accel HEI cap, strange, maybe thats why I cant get my car to run right? Maybe my car was computer controlled at one time but when i bought it there was no computer on it, no O2 sensor and no other signs of computer.

 

HEI has been around a long while guys . I had HEI igniton on my 1979 T/A with a pontiac 400 motor . It didnt have a computer . He won't be able to run a 80s computer controlled HEI distributor on a non computer controlled car , but he can run a late 70s HEI distributor .......

 

Wow I see a lot of advise here, but none that is going to save you any money. You said your main concern is saving money right now. Converting to any other type of induction right now is going to cost you money, period.

My advise. Use the 76 block. The internals sound nice. Keep in mind it has a 2-piece rear main seal so you are going to need a new flywheel. Re-use your stock 89 heads. You should be able to get them rebuilt at a fairly inexpensive price. Double check to make sure the cam in the 76 block is EFI friendly. You said it was not the stock cam, so hopefully it will be ok. Now just slap the TPI back on. This is your cheapest route for now. Will it make tons of power, well of course not. But you will have a forged bottom end that you got cheaply, and it keeps the most amount of money in your pocket. Then you can save for new heads and whatever else you want, and contemplate an induction swap later. Hell if I were you I'd consider the Holley Stealth Ram later on. You can keep your TPI ECM and wiring going that route, and have a kick-*** EFI setup.

 

Ok....question if I use the 89 heads, will the water ports match up with the 76 block, in other words. If they don't they that match up will not work??? If it will I would rather use those heads than the bigger combustion chamber heads!!!!!

 

They will match up just fine .....

 

Are you 100% positive.....

 

I am 200% Positive

 

Ok, would I get more horsepower, if I use my 89 heads, enlarge the valves, and port and polish them. Or would I run more HP if I just use my 89's over the 76's?????

 

The 89 heads are FAR BETTER than those 76 heads . You will get more power out of them over the 76s . Do yourself a favor and use the 89 heads , you wont regret it, I promise !

 

 

Ok thanks guys, well see at first I didn't think that the 89 heads would bolt up.....so now i know...now I just got to get rid of those 79 heads....thanks guys...I will use the 89 heads....So what do you think of that set up now guys???? whats my power gonna be like????

 

Also all my mounting brackets will work....right????

 

everything will work!!! I guess I missed that you had the TPI heads still, or I would have told you to use those LONG ago...

good move on the heads!

 

whats better 1 piece or 2 piece seal on the motor?

 

1 pc, i doesn't leak.

 

could I get a one piece rear seal for this block....

 

I believe they make a kit/adapter to convert to 1pc RMS , but I have never used one . ...

 

the 1 piece adaptor is like $189 too. ANd we all know chevys run better when they are leaking something right???

 

Does anyone know that the stock valve size is on my 89 heads????

 

1.94 and 1.5

 

do you think thats good enough size for what I have, or should I go 2:02/1:60 or will the heads handle that....or 1:94/1:60's