I am gonna do an engine swap this summer but I'm not sure if I want to put in a 350 with a supercharger or a 455 from an old buick. I need to know which is probally gonna be the cheapest and get the most power. The 455 will need to be rebuilt and of course all the stuff I'll have to do to the frame.

 

This has been discussed before and subsequent arguments have ensued. Power output all depends on the combination of parts, its impossible just to say one or the other will make more power just by virtue of the engine type or size, especially when one may be supercharged. The bottom line is the 350 will be much, much easier to do, and way cheaper if its NA.

 

IMO a 455 would be a waste of money unless you are looking for an awe factor. So as to prevent a flame war, I will say again. This is my OPINION, not saying it is fact, dont care about bottom dollar. It comes down to, its gonna cost a whole hell of a lot more. That, and the fact that you can do just about anything with a 350 chevy, its just not worth it.

 

Given the fact that you want to build a supercharged 350 Chevy or a Buick 455, the cost argument is thrown out the window. Build a 350 to handle 7-10 PSI reliably, and then buy the supercharger (and the necessary upgrades to go along with it), and pretty soon you've spent quite a chunk. Buick motors aren't cheap to build, but considering torque figures in the 500 range stock its not really necessary to go too crazy with it. It will be more reliable than a blown 350 also.

 

The Buick engine will be more complicated to install, but if you go with a pre '74 engine with a stock rebuild, performance will be great at a lower cost than a supercharged 350. If you are good at fabrication and improvisation, the install of a 455 will not be too hard of a challenge.
Buick engines are very expensive to build high performance, but as stated previously, they put out great power in stock form, and are quite reliable as long as you modify the oiling system.

 

BTW, if you don't already have the Buick motor, you might consider a Pontiac 455 or even a Cadillac 500.

The Pontiac 455 is much cheaper to build than the Buick,parts availability is better, the mounts and headers are available (Chief Many Horses), and power levels are similar. Plus, they're equally easy to find in a salvage yard (at least here in GA; Pull-A-Part gets about $100 for a longblock). Thats the route I'm taking on my 87 TA.

The Caddy swap is a little tougher (you can get a semi-universal mount kit from Maximum torque Specialties, along with a header "kit"...Cad flanges, some u-bends, and a set of BBC headers), but definitely worthwhile. A stock 1970 Eldorado 500 was rated at 375hp and 500 torque, and with a few goodies from MTS you can bump that number to 500/500 (or more). They're very high quality high nickel blocks with beefy mains and stout nodular cranks, the heads flow pretty well as is, and once you go to an aluminum intake you're down in SBC (iron head) weight territory. Its relatively compact as far as big blocks go too. The only real downside to these motors is the stock rocker setup, and thats easily (and relatively cheaply) fixed. I'm currently building a 500 to go into a 1990 Chevy 3500 dually, but I'm thinking about putting one in my 85 TA as a sleeper.

 

I already have the 455 it just needs to be pulled out of the buick its in and rebuilt.

 

Is there a website that has how to switch a 455 buick engine into a 3rd gen.

 

Not really. It's not like people are doing it right and left, and taking pics and posting them, and writing it up for posterity or whatever.

There's somebody that posts on this site that is evidently a Buick V8 guy, maybe knows those motors and what parts to look for and how to make them work; he's working on one, and posted pics of where he was modifying his firewall to accept one. It's in this forum somewhere. If you do a search on "Buick" and "firewall", you might be able to find it. I have no clue what he was going to do about exhaust though. That seems like it would be the biggest hurdle to overcome. That, and the extreme rarity of anything resembling performance parts for them, since basically they're virtually all just luxo-barge motors. You'd be likely to end up with one of those huge, heavy, expensive, elaborate, time-consuming projects where at the end, you discover you could have gone faster for a quarter the money and a tenth the time with a Chevy 350, and that nobody else really cares about any kind of "wow" factor for it being unusual.

 

sometimes, it's all about being different & the "wow factor"

 

Sometimes it is; on the other hand, sometimes some of us have to be careful that the only "wow factor" we get is "wow, I just spent how much? and this thing only runs 16s and can't make it to and from work one time without something falling apart and it uses fuel in the gallons per mile?" It's all in what you really want, what you have to spend to get there, and how likely the path you choose is, to actually lead to what you want.

Speaking strictly for myself, there's no "wow factor" whatsoever in walking up to a car and seeing a transplant, just for the sake of it being a transplant. I'm not a Buick or Olds or Pontiac (or even Chevrolet) partisan, so I don't get off on seeing "my favorite brand" of motor in whatever car it didn't come in. For me, the "wow factor" is in seeing one that is fast, reliable, inexpensive to put together, handles good, etc. etc.; without any one of those factors destroying any of the others. To each his own though. But IMHO, putting some smogger 180 HP 70s monster cast iron blibbet into one of these cars only gets the "wow factor" of "wow, I can't believe somebody would bother to do that to their car".

And, most importantly, for someone who just has some old car with a big motor that needs to be rebuilt and thinks that rebuilding that and swapping into some other car with a motor that needs to be rebuilt is cheaper than putting the right kind of motor into it, it's really bad advice. You gotta make sure of what the questioner's real motive for asking the question is. Somebody that says "I got this free 1949 Hupmobile V7 and my car needs a motor, what do I have to do to stick it in my Camaro" is going to spend vastly more than he thinks on that "free" motor, and he's probably going to be gravely disappointed at the end of it all, if he carries it through to completion. That's very different from a guy that's had some kind of car for years, has an accumulation of parts, knows them inside and out, knows where to get stuff, knows what fits, etc. etc., going and swapping his brand of motor into a foreign body.

 

I may be wrong, but unlike the Pontiac and Olds 455 doesn't the Buick 455 actually weigh LESS then a SBC? And for the power/torque they put out, that seems like a pretty good package. I have no idea about installation though.

EDIT: Ok so I actually looked on the internet and it seems the Buick 455 is ~600-610 lbs. So with an aluminum intake you'd be close to an SBC. Still not bad for 455 ci.

 

The buick 455 is lighter than the other big blocks.. but hot rod magazine made a comparison on build ups regarding
olds, buick, poncho 455, chevy 454 ..

the buick costed 2000$ more than the others .. (7500$)

Tho, the buick did make more power than the others..
but roughly 20 hp isnt worth the extra expense ...

(and its as light as a SBC WITH aluminum heads & intake)







HOTROD ENGINES Winter 2002.

 

My old JHS shop teacher had the worlds largest collection of hupmobiles. He had 5 i think, worth mulit-millions of $'s. He lives in Boise ID.

 

So basically what your saying is that if i want a relable engine is shouldn't go with the 455.

 

No, I think hes trying to say that a SBC is the easiest/cheapest moderate performance solution, and in that hes right. Still though, even if you only built the 455 to stock stage 1 specs (and you could build it much better with todays cam technology), you'd have a MUCH stronger engine than you would have for the same $ spent on a small block Chevy. The 70 Buick GS 455 was one of the fastest of the regular production musclecars, and they were all loaded up with a bunch of heavy, power robbing accessories, yet they still ran right with stripped down big block Chevies and Hemi mopars. Sure, if you're trying to build a 600+ hp 455, you're going to spend some cash. But how much cash would you spend to get 500lb/ft of torque out of a small block Chevy? You could get that out of a 455 for less than the cost of a good stroker rotating assembly for the SBC.

 

I don't know what kind of power numbers you're looking for, but a junkyard Caddy 500 will take a hefty nitrous shot over and over. Lots of people report 200 shots going down smooth, but I think 150 is the accepted "safe" value, and that's on an otherwise stock motor. Just don't rev above 5k.

 

Very true...the guys at Maximum Torque Specialties have sprayed a 250 shot on 500s with STOCK CAST PISTONS and had them live. I just got off the phone with them, ordering parts for Redraif's 90 Chevy Dually. We're putting in a 10:1 507 Caddy with forged rods and pistons, a healthy (for a truck) cam, shaft rockers,headers, and an edelbrock intake. Overall, its going to cost less than $4000 total incl machine work, for a stump pulling engine that will last...and we went overkill on durability. By eliminating the weak areas (the rockers and the cast rods), this motor will be able to spin much higher than 5000 rpm, but because of the cam choice (for a "performance" towing application) won't have to. Even with the milder cam, it should easily make over 500hp and 600 torque. Should be a lot of fun to drive

 

My opinion is to go with the Buick and a set of 3:42 gears, unless you're looking for the look of a supercharger. Use '70 - '72 heads, 9 - 10:1 compression and a high volume oil pump (be sure to inspect the original timing cover for wear as it forms the oil pump housing).
Prepare the body for the torque and set up the rear suspension for traction. I have a '73 Bird with a 455 stage II Buick (bored and stroked to 492) that runs 10 flats and gets 17 mpg. I sure don't complain, never had to adjust anything on it except the carb once in a while at the track.

 

hey man could you give me all the specs you got on your engine cause ive never seen anyone go into the 10s with 3.42 gears and get 17mpg thats gotta be a super engine or some kinda abnormality cause otherwise i think its kinda lol...are you runnin a 6 speed tranny or something i just dont find it possible to get that mileage and those numbers ...

 

Well, I had an uncle that had an old firebird around that age, and it had a 455 in it. it was one of the Super Duties, and it got around 14 stock, with no mods, and it sure as hell wasnt a 10 second car. Sounds a little too good to be true

 

It is a Stage I out of a '70 GSX with the Stage II heads (reworked for max flow). Kenne-Bell stroker kit putting it up to 492 ci, Edelobrock intake (not manufactured for quite some time now). 10.5:1 cr, custom grind solid lifter cam (my own specs), Holley 850 dual feed double pumper w/mech. secondaries, custom 3.25" headers and exhaust through glasspacks, 2200 stall converter.
Suspension is a custom 4-link, full tube chassis, body stripped of any excess weight.

This is obviously a little more extreme than a stocker, but the Buick 455 in a 3500 to 4000 pound car seems to do extremely well with the 3.42 gears as they put the engine in it's torque curve and keep it there. There are guys running 12's with mildly cammed 455's in 4000 lb cars at the track all the time. A buddy of mine put a stock 455 in his girlfriends Regal (this was a junkyard motor as he works there), this thing was quicker in the 1/4 than his built to the hilt sb 400 in his Monte!! He was po'd so he built a 454 for his Monte.

Thing is, a performance engine does not have to be a gas guzzler, performance comes from efficiency - the more efficient, the more power. You can stick every name brand high performance part there is into an engine, but if they are not matched properly, you'll get beat by stockers and get bad mpg's to boot. 17 mpg is not an unobtainable number if you do your homework and use your head, and of course, this number is during sane driving not in the throttle all the time.

 

Hmm. Define 'built to the hilt'. There must have been other issues with that Monte Carlo if it was highly modified and couldnt keep up with a junkyard 455 Regal.

 

Although it is difficult to get a feel of other's projects and experience on a msg board, you must know that my buddy is an extremely experienced engine builder, drag and stock car racer. He knows his stuff. The thing is, those 455's were designed to motivated those huge boat anchors (commonly known as the Road Fleets). It is difficult to get as much load moving torque out of a small block than one of these monsters.
If you still have your doubts, try stuffing a bone stock pre '73 455 buick in any car you would like (around 3500 lbs) with 3.42 gears and see for yourself.

 

I'm not debating the time at all, I agree, those 455's (be they buick olds or pontiac) arent much to fool around with. I've seen em stomp the hell out of well built cars in thier stock form. I'm hoping to find me a 69-71 cutlass 442 soon, and you can bet its gonna have a 455 in it too. I was just saying that the 17mpg seems a little high for a motor like that. Does it have an OD tranny?

 

Just one TH-350 after another (never could handle the engine). I must admit I was pleasantly surprised by the mpg's, I figure I must have matched the parts quite well. If you get the right stuff together in the right way, you CAN get good mpg's as well as power. Of course, you do need to keep your foot out of the throttle!!!

 

yeah, but keeping your foot out of it isnt any fun at all!

 

Back to the topic, if you want to fit a 455 Buick in, get everything out of the engine compartment first. Then you bolt the trans to the engine and put the motor mounts on the engine (both the frame and block mounts), put your exhaust manifolds on, then slide the assembly into the bay. Now you go under the car, and mount the trans to the crossmember properly. Then check engine alignment and clearances. When you get everything straight, you can now mark on the frame where your mounts need to be located. Now take everything out and either weld or bolt the mounts to the frame.
Then start putting it all together, exhaust may be tricky, but it'll work.

 

i could see how your gettin the mileage there then because you have stripped alot of weight and done some homework on how to set every thing up thats awsome man keep up the work ....and your friends monte must have something wrong somewhere he must need to do alot of tuning and or adjustments to get that sucker dialed in correctly ..just because someone builds an engine you cant expect it to go out and run a 10 sec quarter there are alot of other variables to consider like rearends and transmission gearing and so on but anyway it sounds like you have one hell of a set up there ...keep up the good work and run it like you stole it ..LMAO

 

Thats a pretty blanket statement. A budget 350+ cid smallblock with some cheap TRW forgings, Vortecs, and some nitrous wouldnt be difficult at all and could be built very cheap.

 

Well, of course you can take any engine, shove it full of nitrous and turbo, and make it scream. Just look at the bazillions of "Fast and the Furious" wannabe's. You go and take your 350 with nitrous, and I will take a 455 with nitrous and we'll stick them into identical cars, and see what happens.

This topic is about the comparison of a supercharged 350 and a n/a 455. The 455 will win hands down on reliability and efficiency every time.

 

Who said anything about a turbo? Why are you comparing a smallblock to a Civic engine? I was simply responding to your statement that it was difficult to get 'as much load moving torque' out of a smallblock. I dont agree. I dont think anything is difficult when it comes to smallblocks.

 

I believe what Lonestar was trying to say is that the 455 makes so much more torque that a small block really has to be built to make the same. I agree with you, its not hard to do very much with a small block, but Ido think that a 455 will outperform it. A small block would have a hard time matching the torque of a built 455 and still having as much horsepower. IF oyu look at things as torque gets your off the line, and horsepower wins the race in upper RPM's. Even with nitrous, youre not going to get the off the line torque of the 455.

 

yeah the off the line torque is awsome with a 455 but you will also have to do some upgrading to your suspension to support that block on your front end not to mention the rearend is going to need to be reworked either way if you go with a 350 built or a 455 so no matter which way you go the money is gonna have to be there but if it were me id go with the 350 just because of the ease of installation and availabilty of parts and not to mention the price of hipo parts for a 455 arent the cheapest inthe world..lol...but the 350 has a wide variety of parts for a better price if you build the 455 just over stock you could have built a stronger 350 for the same price ....if you take a 350 and have the block notched and buy a 383 kit for it you can make just as much torque as that 455 will and it will be a lighter platform with less mods having to be done to the suspension in the front and alot less fabrication to get the engine in there in my opinion if it were me id build a good stout 383 and run with the big dogs all day long..

 

Nitrous is only fun when its flowing...the 455's torque is there all the time, on demand. Spend the cash for a year's worth of nitrous building your 455, and have a reliable, torquey engine that will last 100K miles +. No nitrous motor is going to last as long as an NA motor.

The thing most people don't realize about these engines is that because they make so much torque down low (often over 400lb/ft at 2000rpm), they don't have to rev in daily driving and can get very good mileage for their size, even without an overdrive. I wouldn't think 17mpg would be possible with a 10 second, non OD, carbureted anything with the same tune (unless its very light), but massive power (or mpg) gains are often possible with a jet change and little else.

 

i would still if it were me build the 350 not with nitros thou just go all out on it and you will have a nice ride ......and i can see the plus sides to the 455 but i can also see alot of down sides to it too ...more fabrication , and suspension issues to deal with i would think..

 

i can tell i am gonna get some slack from this. but here goes. i put a pontiac 455 into an 86 iroc. no fabrication. 1000$ for the parts to make it fit. and with 490 h.p. and 450 foot pounds of torque. it was well worth it. it helps that i like things to be different than the norm.

 

dude I think its cool. I probably wouldnt do it myself. But I think its cool. The 455 is one hell of a motor.

 

hey if ya got the ability and knowledge and access to the parts to do it go for it i bet that thing screams....have you ever ran it at the track?? ..how did ya make headers to fit in that iroc??...does someone make em to fit ?? not knockin ya just askin sounds like a fun swap .......just always thought it would be more fab work

 

the motor mounts and headers are from chief many horses http://www.chiefmanyhorses.com/. the torque arm is from jeggs, mounts to the tunnel not the trans. all in all it was pretty easy, only because i threw a bunch of money at it. i haven't taken it to the track.

 

awsome i bet that sucker will roast the tires too ...lol...sounds like a cool swap
just not for me with money bein a issue ive gotta be a little more conservative myself do you have any pics of the engine inthe car ?? id like to see what that bad boy looks like inthere

 

i dont have many pics. that's one thing i regret with doing this. i didn't stop to take the time to take pics. i will have some of the completed project soon. here is a pic of the motor. i'll get others eventually, when i get off my butt to do em .. lol.

 

maybe this time

 

wow looks awsome man

 

thank you. i put a lot of time and money into that bad boy. and to have someone else admire it, well that's just cool.

 

hey when someone puts their own blood sweat and tears..lol..into any car to make it there own i look up to em because there building what they want and not what every one else thinks they should ......but it looks really nice id like to see some pics of it in the car ...i bet there isnt much clearance between that big boy and the car..lol...

 

not much room at all... lol. now i have to tell ya. the car, well that doesn't look as nice ..lol. but it will in time. first thing's first. i'll get some pics soon.

 

cool ...what kind of exhaust are you runnin on that ..and did you have to do any work to the front suspension to get it to hold it ??

 

right now i am just runnin open headers. all i did was put some heavy duty springs in the front. the steering doesn't seem to be affected much. the brakes are going to have to be redone. the stopping power just isn't there. it rides nice but you can tell it's a little nose heavy. the back end is a little free on bumpy roads when the fuel take is not full. i put a 200lb chunk of steel in the rear cargo area and it help out dramatically. now i have to figure out exactly how and where to add the wieght.

 

sounds like a journey of trial and error and thats always expected but sounds like your goin down the right road to gettin it right ...keep it up and keep us posted and when you get some pics of the engine in the car post em or send me a pm...thanks alot i really enjoy the sight of that big ol engine..lol...