what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 820
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
Hi everyone.
I 've been around lurking for some time now, and have enjoyed very much the excellent info found here. I need some advice on a third gen purchase/swap.
I am looking at two cars:
Car 1. 87 gta, with only 75,000 kms 5l tpi (boo) loaded and is an absolute time machine, all factory original including paint. I feel the car is too nice to hack into for an LSX swap.
Car 2. 88 gta, higher k, original paint, not as nice as car 1. Has a 3.8 turbo setup (ran 11 sec in a GN) but needs a little work to complete. Dont know how it runs yet, may be a little shot in the dark but doesn't worry me as the car can be had for cheap!
Another option for the 87 might include building a killer tpi stroker? would it be worth my time building a tpi?
I know many here have been very happy with the ls swaps, if i do one i think it will be 6.2!
How many have witnessed a 3.8 swap, any problems?
What other pros/cons to both swaps?
I 've been around lurking for some time now, and have enjoyed very much the excellent info found here. I need some advice on a third gen purchase/swap.
I am looking at two cars:
Car 1. 87 gta, with only 75,000 kms 5l tpi (boo) loaded and is an absolute time machine, all factory original including paint. I feel the car is too nice to hack into for an LSX swap.
Car 2. 88 gta, higher k, original paint, not as nice as car 1. Has a 3.8 turbo setup (ran 11 sec in a GN) but needs a little work to complete. Dont know how it runs yet, may be a little shot in the dark but doesn't worry me as the car can be had for cheap!
Another option for the 87 might include building a killer tpi stroker? would it be worth my time building a tpi?
I know many here have been very happy with the ls swaps, if i do one i think it will be 6.2!
How many have witnessed a 3.8 swap, any problems?
What other pros/cons to both swaps?
Last edited by gbayfisher; Sep 24, 2010 at 05:33 PM.
Joined: Sep 2005
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Re: what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
The most important things you mention:
and
Those 2 things pretty much tell the tale about each car.
I see no reason that a 305 car is "too nice" to put a better motor in. Nobody cares about that motor, or ever will. If you think differently, pack it up and store it, and have it sitting there for whenever that day comes; and in the meantime, put a decent motor in it, so that you don't get beat so bad by minivans and stuff. It hurts when that happens, blee dat. If done properly, a LSx swap is minimally invasive; for instance, DO NOT hack A SINGLE wire. EVERY PIECE of the original can easily be preserved if the swap is done without sodomy.
A half-done turbocharger swap that "needs a little work" is a recipe for disaster. That particular swap has 2 primary issues keeping it from running:
1. the heads that came on it won't accomodate air conditioning in that car; and
2. it is absolutley impossible to obtain an exhaust that fits it, unless you find a Turbo TA. Otherwise, it will have to be $$$$$$custom$$$$$$. That's why it "needs a little work" and instead of the present owner doing it, he realizes he screwed up by attempting that, and is now looking for the "greater fool" to take this unsolvable problem off his hands and relieve him of a crushing financial burden. DON'T fall for that.
I would suggest, if you like car #1, and the price is decent like no more than $2000 or so, get it; enjoy it for the time being; and when you get sick of the lack of power, THEN worry about swapping something else into it.
IMO it is not worth building a TPI motor in this day and time. Too many other better options out there. The 6.2L being one of them. It's just too easy and too cheap to make ALOT LOT LOT more power than you EVER will with TPI, and ESPECIALLY a 305, nowadays. Hell not even the people with MINT Model As still run flathead V8s, or people with 57 Chevys mostly don't run the sufferin' 6. Learn from their example. An underpowered obsolete motor doesn't "retain value" somehow.
5l tpi ... all factory original
needs a little work
Those 2 things pretty much tell the tale about each car.
I see no reason that a 305 car is "too nice" to put a better motor in. Nobody cares about that motor, or ever will. If you think differently, pack it up and store it, and have it sitting there for whenever that day comes; and in the meantime, put a decent motor in it, so that you don't get beat so bad by minivans and stuff. It hurts when that happens, blee dat. If done properly, a LSx swap is minimally invasive; for instance, DO NOT hack A SINGLE wire. EVERY PIECE of the original can easily be preserved if the swap is done without sodomy.
A half-done turbocharger swap that "needs a little work" is a recipe for disaster. That particular swap has 2 primary issues keeping it from running:
1. the heads that came on it won't accomodate air conditioning in that car; and
2. it is absolutley impossible to obtain an exhaust that fits it, unless you find a Turbo TA. Otherwise, it will have to be $$$$$$custom$$$$$$. That's why it "needs a little work" and instead of the present owner doing it, he realizes he screwed up by attempting that, and is now looking for the "greater fool" to take this unsolvable problem off his hands and relieve him of a crushing financial burden. DON'T fall for that.
I would suggest, if you like car #1, and the price is decent like no more than $2000 or so, get it; enjoy it for the time being; and when you get sick of the lack of power, THEN worry about swapping something else into it.
IMO it is not worth building a TPI motor in this day and time. Too many other better options out there. The 6.2L being one of them. It's just too easy and too cheap to make ALOT LOT LOT more power than you EVER will with TPI, and ESPECIALLY a 305, nowadays. Hell not even the people with MINT Model As still run flathead V8s, or people with 57 Chevys mostly don't run the sufferin' 6. Learn from their example. An underpowered obsolete motor doesn't "retain value" somehow.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 820
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
The most important things you mention:
and
Those 2 things pretty much tell the tale about each car.
I see no reason that a 305 car is "too nice" to put a better motor in. Nobody cares about that motor, or ever will. If you think differently, pack it up and store it, and have it sitting there for whenever that day comes; and in the meantime, put a decent motor in it, so that you don't get beat so bad by minivans and stuff. It hurts when that happens, blee dat. If done properly, a LSx swap is minimally invasive; for instance, DO NOT hack A SINGLE wire. EVERY PIECE of the original can easily be preserved if the swap is done without sodomy.
A half-done turbocharger swap that "needs a little work" is a recipe for disaster. That particular swap has 2 primary issues keeping it from running:
1. the heads that came on it won't accomodate air conditioning in that car; and
2. it is absolutley impossible to obtain an exhaust that fits it, unless you find a Turbo TA. Otherwise, it will have to be $$$$$$custom$$$$$$. That's why it "needs a little work" and instead of the present owner doing it, he realizes he screwed up by attempting that, and is now looking for the "greater fool" to take this unsolvable problem off his hands and relieve him of a crushing financial burden. DON'T fall for that.
I would suggest, if you like car #1, and the price is decent like no more than $2000 or so, get it; enjoy it for the time being; and when you get sick of the lack of power, THEN worry about swapping something else into it.
IMO it is not worth building a TPI motor in this day and time. Too many other better options out there. The 6.2L being one of them. It's just too easy and too cheap to make ALOT LOT LOT more power than you EVER will with TPI, and ESPECIALLY a 305, nowadays. Hell not even the people with MINT Model As still run flathead V8s, or people with 57 Chevys mostly don't run the sufferin' 6. Learn from their example. An underpowered obsolete motor doesn't "retain value" somehow.
and
Those 2 things pretty much tell the tale about each car.
I see no reason that a 305 car is "too nice" to put a better motor in. Nobody cares about that motor, or ever will. If you think differently, pack it up and store it, and have it sitting there for whenever that day comes; and in the meantime, put a decent motor in it, so that you don't get beat so bad by minivans and stuff. It hurts when that happens, blee dat. If done properly, a LSx swap is minimally invasive; for instance, DO NOT hack A SINGLE wire. EVERY PIECE of the original can easily be preserved if the swap is done without sodomy.
A half-done turbocharger swap that "needs a little work" is a recipe for disaster. That particular swap has 2 primary issues keeping it from running:
1. the heads that came on it won't accomodate air conditioning in that car; and
2. it is absolutley impossible to obtain an exhaust that fits it, unless you find a Turbo TA. Otherwise, it will have to be $$$$$$custom$$$$$$. That's why it "needs a little work" and instead of the present owner doing it, he realizes he screwed up by attempting that, and is now looking for the "greater fool" to take this unsolvable problem off his hands and relieve him of a crushing financial burden. DON'T fall for that.
I would suggest, if you like car #1, and the price is decent like no more than $2000 or so, get it; enjoy it for the time being; and when you get sick of the lack of power, THEN worry about swapping something else into it.
IMO it is not worth building a TPI motor in this day and time. Too many other better options out there. The 6.2L being one of them. It's just too easy and too cheap to make ALOT LOT LOT more power than you EVER will with TPI, and ESPECIALLY a 305, nowadays. Hell not even the people with MINT Model As still run flathead V8s, or people with 57 Chevys mostly don't run the sufferin' 6. Learn from their example. An underpowered obsolete motor doesn't "retain value" somehow.
I hear what your saying! I know the 305 is not a highly desirable car. Lol, on getting beat by a mini van, I know my crapota Sienna would give it a run for its money! I went to see both cars today, the 3.8 turbo project was a piece of crap! not getting into that $hit! I bought the mint 87, more than $2000 though! mind you, its a show quality car and clean third gens in Ontario are still not very cheap. I prefer to put money into mint cars than do body work!
I should be picking it up for Wednesday, I post some pics of it soon.
Onto the swap! I have decided and this early stage that I want to keep this thing as original looking and clean as possible. I am not worried about doing the swap, so long as it stays uncut and not hacked, but I guess thats upto me! I will be doing all the work myself with a friend.
I am considering a 6l or 6.2? Car will be auto for sure, 4l60e most likely.
Next questions:
6.2 vvt? is it worth the hassle?
6.2 non vvt? any benefit finding a 6.2 vvt to simply yank the vvt out?
6.0? with l92 heads, and new cam?
Would it be smarter to build my existing 700r4 or change out to a 4l60e?
Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
From: Niagara falls,ontario
Car: 84 firebird
Engine: 355
Transmission: 700r4 stage 2 shift kit 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: 3.42 posi
Re: what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 820
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
Onto the swap! I have decided and this early stage that I want to keep this thing as original looking and clean as possible. I am not worried about doing the swap, so long as it stays uncut and not hacked, but I guess thats upto me! I will be doing all the work myself with a friend.
I am considering a 6l or 6.2? Car will be auto for sure, 4l60e most likely.
Next questions:
6.2 vvt? is it worth the hassle?
6.2 non vvt? any benefit finding a 6.2 vvt to simply yank the vvt out?
6.0? with l92 heads, and new cam?
Would it be smarter to build my existing 700r4 or change out to a 4l60e?
I am considering a 6l or 6.2? Car will be auto for sure, 4l60e most likely.
Next questions:
6.2 vvt? is it worth the hassle?
6.2 non vvt? any benefit finding a 6.2 vvt to simply yank the vvt out?
6.0? with l92 heads, and new cam?
Would it be smarter to build my existing 700r4 or change out to a 4l60e?
Be careful about GEN IV swaps like the 6.2L esp VVT engines. No 3rd gen swaps are running with VVT (V8Rumble is close) and info on the GEN IV platform is almost non-existent compared to the wealth available for GEN III. If you want simplicity using the new stuff, dress it up with LS2/3 parts. Bear in mind, to disable VVT, you simply unplug the connector up front and tune it out of the PCM
I wouldnt use another 700R4 if you threatened me with one. Drive the GTA, then hop in a 4th gen Fbody. Feel the difference in how they shift, it's night and day. If thats not enough to sell you, read up on how much trouble people have getting TC lockup/speedo working with the 700R4 behind the newer engine. Also, for a modified LSx engine, the 4L60E will get very close to it's threshold. Look to a built unit or 4L80E. Those things are STOUT
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 820
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
Theres no getting around it. A 3rd gen harness MUST be cut up to get a LSx engine in there running properly. It doesnt have to be the original one though, V6 works just as well. Lots of info about doing your own wiring is in the LTx/LSx forum. You can build it to be very minimalistic like mine
Be careful about GEN IV swaps like the 6.2L esp VVT engines. No 3rd gen swaps are running with VVT (V8Rumble is close) and info on the GEN IV platform is almost non-existent compared to the wealth available for GEN III. If you want simplicity using the new stuff, dress it up with LS2/3 parts. Bear in mind, to disable VVT, you simply unplug the connector up front and tune it out of the PCM
I wouldnt use another 700R4 if you threatened me with one. Drive the GTA, then hop in a 4th gen Fbody. Feel the difference in how they shift, it's night and day. If thats not enough to sell you, read up on how much trouble people have getting TC lockup/speedo working with the 700R4 behind the newer engine. Also, for a modified LSx engine, the 4L60E will get very close to it's threshold. Look to a built unit or 4L80E. Those things are STOUT
Be careful about GEN IV swaps like the 6.2L esp VVT engines. No 3rd gen swaps are running with VVT (V8Rumble is close) and info on the GEN IV platform is almost non-existent compared to the wealth available for GEN III. If you want simplicity using the new stuff, dress it up with LS2/3 parts. Bear in mind, to disable VVT, you simply unplug the connector up front and tune it out of the PCM
I wouldnt use another 700R4 if you threatened me with one. Drive the GTA, then hop in a 4th gen Fbody. Feel the difference in how they shift, it's night and day. If thats not enough to sell you, read up on how much trouble people have getting TC lockup/speedo working with the 700R4 behind the newer engine. Also, for a modified LSx engine, the 4L60E will get very close to it's threshold. Look to a built unit or 4L80E. Those things are STOUT
Your wealth of knowledge is appreciated. Still on the fence here about going lsx or 383 tpi! I can appreciate the pros and cons of both setups. Car comes in on Monday, I will post some pics.
I think what I need to do is build TWO cars!
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 400
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From: Orillia On,
Car: 1986 sports coupe, 1984 F41
Engine: 3.8L Turbo SFI, stock 305
Transmission: 700 R4, 700 R4
Axle/Gears: 3.42:1, 3.08:1
Re: what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
I'm kinda partial to the 3.8 swap... don't know why... lol https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/4...urbo-swap.html
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 820
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: what to do....? lsx or 3.8 turbo swap?
I'm kinda partial to the 3.8 swap... don't know why... lol https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/4...urbo-swap.html
I passed on the turbo car and picked up the mint 87 tpi.
Looking to lsex it, or maybe......... 383 tpi !
Time will tell, I don't even have the darn thing home yet...!
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