FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

First off, I appreciate any feedback on this project.

My car is a 1991 Firebird Formula 305 w/ T5. I'm rebuilding the transmission and after that I'd like to build a 350 and drop that in. This is my first engine build so I need all the suggestions I can get. Here is the general criteria:

-Will be run with the stock TPI set up
-It has to be fully drivable around town at low speeds, smooth idle, etc. I hate my current engine because it runs aweful, except on the highway.
-Can be run in front of a T5 and stock rear end with reasonable life expectancy for the tranny and rear (I don't drive too hard)
-Would like to complete for under $2000.

What I'm looking for is suggestions on cam/head combos, how much to pay for a prepped 350 block, a good master rebuild kit, all those things.

Some specific questions I have are:

Could the 305 crank, provided it is in good condition, be used with a 350?

What are reasonable HP/TQ numbers to expect from a mild 350 in my budget range?

Is the ECM the same? I will obviously need a 350 chip.

Are there headers that will bolt up to the Y pipe on a dual cat car (I guess it's more of an X pipe).

Please feel free to touch upon any areas that I may have missed.
Thanks!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

A good 350 TPI crate engine is hard to come by these days. You can find rebuilt, but $2000 is going to be a stretch.

You can find an '87-'95 350 truck engine and use the block as a base for a rebuild. Tanking, boring, and cam bearing install is going to run you about $250-$400 (check prices with shops in your area). I haven't had a crank turned in quite awhile, check with shops in your area. Good hyper pistons rebuild kits are about $350-$475 from Summit. If you reuse your 305 heads, get dished pistons.

You would need to have the 305 crank rebalanced to your new 350 parts. It would be cheaper to buy a new 350 crank. Most likely the crank in your builder will be fine.

If you want really nice heads, it's hard to beat this kit: http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...er/sd8060ratpi . With an LT4 Hot Cam, it'll put out more than 350 HP.

You will need to tune the computer to the 350. You should also get 22 lb injectors.

Hedman makes a nice set of dual-cat headers. Edelbrock also makes their TES for dual cats, but I'd go with the Hedmans if I was in your boots.

If you take it easy driving, the T5 and rear end will be fine. Of course, if you're looking for more power, the first question one would have is, why are you vowing to take it easy?

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the excellent info!

So I'd need an engine block within those years? Does it have something to do with roller lifters?

I'm hoping to do all the work myself (minus the obvious block prep). I figured I should get a different set of heads because the machine work would probably be quite expensive to restore them fully, and I thought I could find a good used set. However, if I'm not making a ton of power, is it worth it to upgrade to newer heads? Is there a nice cam/head combo I should maybe keep a look out for in the classifieds? The Vortec kit would unfortunately be well out of my price range.

I don't need a lot of HP, I'm more interested in low end torque, which is why I think the TPI system should work fine with my car.

I notice most rebuild kits don't come with rods. Is this something I should be looking into as well? I want this engine to be reliable and add some resale value to my car (currently it has about 140,000 miles). For my driving, a 305 would probably be fine but when I sell, I don't want to handcuff someone looking for a lot of performance.

Thanks

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Well I've found a couple options. I can get a long block 350 from a 91 pickup for $100 bucks, apparently good condition with a bad piston. Also, there is a Vortec from a 97 chevy for $550 w/ 220 kms. I believe I read that it will drop in. If I bought that, I could disassemble it, and get the machine shop to prep the block and clean up the heads. I know people really like the Vortec heads, and the only new required part would be the intake? Is this a good option, or would it be risky to just assume the heads and crank would be usable since they have high mileage?

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Any opinions? I think I might just go ahead and by the block for 100 unless there is a reason I shouldn't. Get that serviced along with the crank. Buy a quality rebuild kit, then keep an eye out on the classifieds for lightly used heads/cam/exhaust and maybe rods. My main issue is finding the right head/cam combo so any ballpark suggestions on what I should be looking for would great.

birdman_29

iTrader: (1)

I would go with the 100 buck deal, the year is closer to your cars. I'm just finishing up my 350 rebuild in my 91 RS. When you take the block to the shop they will probably suggest getting the cylinders rebored, the best rebore size would be .30 thousandths over. If the block came with heads I would use them as well. Can possably get them redone for the fraction of the cost of buying new ones. Then I would get a Master rebuild kit for the year of the motor you plan on putting in. There are usually upgrades through kits like better piston rings, better oil seals, better cam shafts etc, I'd pick up the upgrades. Good luck

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Thanks birdman, I think I'll buy the motor tomorrow. Just want to make sure that it will work for sure. Same year motor, just from a truck. I'm assuming they are all the same.

zraffz

Truck vs Car motors aren't different. The only possible difference is 2500+3500 trucks usually came with 4 bolt mains while most cars and light trucks are 2 bolt... but it doesn't matter with your desired power output if its a two or four bolt.

If you want torque and cheap put together go with 58cc chamber 305 heads, hand port and polish them yourself and run a mild cam. It won't breath past 5 grand but your TPI is limiting you to about 5500 RPM anyway (from what I have heard). I've put together a budget torque monster for under $500. It's tire spinning fun but by the time you hit 5th gear your motor is really struggling!

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Good stuff, yeah I wasn't too concerned whether its 2 or 4 bolt mains, because, like you said, power output won't be outrageous. I've owned that car for 3 summers and it hasn't seen 5 grand on the tach yet, and most likely never will while I own it.

I'll see how much cash I have after the bills start piling up for this project, but I might be able to afford some used heads. Good to know that I have the option of my current 305's and the 350 heads that come with this motor.

I'd be interested in learning about this motor you have built, what cam, how drivable it was, mileage, etc. I don't want to make this sound like a "cheap" project but I also don't want to go too far past $2000. I guess that depends a lot on the condition of the block and the machine shop work required.

zraffz

I'd have to find the cam card, I don't remember the head casting but they were 58cc chambers that got hand ported and matched to I forget which manifold, but I'll look. It ran a 14.2 I think with 3.73's and a T5 without 2nd gear, it was also my first time ever running a stick car at the track.

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Well I bought the engine and have gotten the heads off. Cylinder walls look fine, one of the combustion chambers in the head is really chewed up from that bad piston, guess those are out. I'm slightly confused about the lifter situation...on my 305 they had the dogbone guides and a retainer, this one doesn't. Is this not supposed to be a hyd. roller block? The lifters are a fair bit down into their bores, how do you pop those out?

Apeiron

The same blocks were used in trucks with flat tappet cams.

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Ah I see, at least it already has the bores for the guide pins drilled and tapped. It is also a 4 bolt main. Quick question: what is the sensor installed into one of the core plugs? I think it has 3 prongs.

Is decking and line boring the main journals/caps something that should always be done?

Apeiron

If it's in the dran plug just above the oil pan rail, it's the knock sensor. If it's in one of the freeze plugs, it's a block heater.

The deck and alignment of the mains should be checked, at least.

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Thanks! I have a feeling I'm in a little over my head here due to lack of experience. The hands on stuff should be fine by trying to figure out what parts to select is hurting my head. I'm willing to go a little over budget if I can do it right. My reasoning is make sure the bottom end is in great shape, since you can always upgrade cams/heads later without too much hassle. So I've started looking for rotating assemblies with Eagle cranks, but some people say that the GM crank is stronger.....I'm lost. I feel maybe I can get a rotating assembly for around $600, and then move from there. Build it up, and depending on money left over, either find some good used heads or go with my 305's.

The head/cam combo is a whole different issue that could be addressed later. It's probably going to seem like I'm 'overbuilding' it with an entire new rotating assembly given I may be using stock iron heads and TPI, but I'm also looking to the future. If I could just get a clear sense of direction with the bottom end, that should give me a place to start!

Apeiron

What do you plan to do with the car?

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

It will be a daily driver in the summer months. I would like to get mid-20 mpg's on the highway, and it must be very drivable and smooth around town. That being said, I would take as much HP and torque as I could, with the previous goals in mind, and considering I don't want to blow up my freshly rebuilt T-5 and stock rear end. It won't be used for racing, at least not while I own it. Lastly, I want to build it as to transfer as much value as possible for resale. It's already in really nice shape. I just want to do it right for 2000-2400 bucks, all inclusive.

Apeiron

A stock rotating assembly is just fine, then. Keep the LB9 heads, put a computer-friendly factory roller cam in, and add some headers and exhaust.

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for all the advice,

By the end of this weekend I should have the block ready to be serviced. Until I get the price for that, and find out my dimensions, etc. I don't really need to be looking too far ahead. I'll definitely keep the stock crankshaft then, provided its fine.

My one question is, looking at the sealed power kits on summit, one set is around 350 and the other around 460. The big difference appears to be piston cost, although they are both speed pro and of the same type (hyper flat). I'm not sure if the cost is worth it, I don't know enough about pistons and the Federal Mogul site doesn't really provide me with any insight. Do pistons come with wrist pins?

Apeiron

What are the two kits?

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Cheaper: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-CSMHP761-311/

And the more expensive: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-CSMHP762-000/

edit: it looks like the coating on the piston skirt? Is that worth anything?

Apeiron

FEM-CSMHP761-311 has ZH345 pistons, which have a lower compression height than is actually listed, so they'll fit in blocks that have been heavily decked. They've also got 4 valve reliefs in the top. Both of these things will cost some compression.

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

OK guys so I've gotten the block all finished at the machine shop, now I've got crank issues.

I had hoped I just needed a polish, however they say it needs to be grinded. That's just shy of 200 bucks. In addition, the labour to press pistons onto rods is like 80 bucks. That got me thinking maybe I should just try to find a rotating assembly, and save around 300 bucks of labor. However, those are gonna end up costing me more money, so should I just go ahead and have the crank grinded? And then I could move forward with the rebuild kit, or try and find someone with a new set of pistons and rods. Regardless of what I do, this is going to end up costing me alot more then expected, and I'll almost have to reuse my 305 heads. Any input would be great.

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Anyone? If I figure this out quick I might be able to get it done before Christmas!

Apeiron

Had you already bought the pistons?

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

I don't have anything yet in terms of the rotating assembly. Maybe I could try to find a new assembly in the classifieds. I got quoted at 800 bucks for an Eagle assembly. Or, I just get the crank grinded and start piecing together the rest.

Apeiron

Did the block get bored too?

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Block is .30 over, but the mains were not line bored. As five7kid said, if I'm reusing my 305 heads I should get dished pistons...that could be a hard combo to find since I'm assuming there are slim pickings regardless for rotating assemblies laying around unused.

Apeiron

A new crank starts at about $150, but needs to be balanced which might cost say $300. If you were reusing the pistons, it would make sense to grind the crank. Replacing the pistons means you need to balance anyway, so you might as well get a new crank in that case.

If you're already replacing the crank and pistons, you can consider a kit with a 383 crank for the same price as a 350, as well. Not much chance of doing that if you keep the 305 heads, though.

FFCam1991

iTrader: (4)

Good points. Since I'd need to balance, does it not make sense to get a kit from Eagle or something similar, which would be internally balanced? Then I would just have to add a neutral flywheel and harmonic balancer correct?

Speaking of which, any issues taking the flywheel off my 305, resurfacing it and using that? I'm trying to cut cost but not corners.

383 is tempting but then I'll blow apart my transmission and rear end for sure. I think I'll keep proceeding with the 350, and I hope my 305 heads will at least be adequate for now.

Apeiron

As long as your new block is a 1 piece RMS and your new rotating assembly is internally-balanced you can reuse your flywheel. If you did an externally-balanced assembly, you'd need to replace it, or add a weight to it.

Internally or externally balanced doesn't have anything to do with the need to balance the assembly, it just ambiguously refers to the location of some of the balancing weights. Either type still needs to be balanced.