B4C3rdgen

Hello everyone, I have a 1986 Z28 B4C third gen Camaro. Originally it was my Dads but he gave it to me as a project car. When my dad first got the car it had the 305 small block in it. He ran nitrous on the 305 until he blew the motor and swapped it to a 400, then a 427, then a 454, then after a dozen and a half other motors he finally built a 377 stroker.When my dad built the 377 he put every penny and traded as many parts he could find into building this motor.

He finished the motor finally and it was built rock solid. He had the 377 in the car for a while and then his business picked up traction and he had kids.

when that happened he put the car in his warehouse and took the 377 out, put it on a pallet, and it’s in the warehouse to this day. I asked my dad about the car to know what I’m getting into. I told him originally I wanted to do a turbo small block LS3, but I also have the 377 stroker and a 454 on the table of options.

He said there all good choices and after a while of thinking about it I’m more leaning to the decision of the 377 stroker. I want to drop the 377 stroker back in because the car is ready for it, and all the mounts and wiring is there. it’s just a few hours of labor and hooking things up and the car is good to go. The more I thought on it I realized that an LS3 and a 377 stroker are both small blocks but one is a CI bigger than the other. I also want to either put a T56 manual or a 4L80e auto transmission in behind the 377.

I’ve gone with my dad to look at the car and it’s in good condition all it needs is the motor, transmission, driveshaft, wheels, hood, and a clean up and it’s ready to go.

I’ve done a fair bit of research and I’m really leaning to the 377 stroker instead of a LS3 just because of the little amount of time it will take, less money and less time spent on finding or making crossmembers.

And I also want to put a turbo kit on the 377 stroker after I get the car all setup. Should I or should I not turbo the 377 stroker and should I or should I not put the 377 stroker back in?

Thank you.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Depends on what this "377 stroker" really is, and what your goals are.

I'm going to drop the "stroker" bit because it gets tedious after about the 50th time.

A 377 can be built out of EITHER: a std bore 350 with a 3.75" (stock 400) stroke; OR, a .030" over 400 block with a 3.48" (stock 350) crank. Which one is this? If it's the former, what crank, rods, & pistons is it built out of? Speaking strictly as an old geezer: back in the day we would take a stock 400 crank and turn the mains down to 350 diameter, and use stock 400 rods & stock (or cheeeeeeeep "rebuilder" 350) pistons, and put it in a truck where it never turned any RPMs to speak of. Then the aftermarket stepped up with all manner of forged cranks, different length rods & piston heights, and so on; which made it a whole other ball game. Or, if it's the 400 block / 350 crank setup, what parts is THAT built out of? Thick "spacer" main bearings (long gone from the face of the earth AFAIK), or the other thing we all used to do for round-track cheater motors when 400 blocks were plentiful and the feature win at a big track could be worth buying a block, and we'd stick 400 main bearings in the block, align-bore em out to 350 journal size, slap stock 350 bearings in em, and go from there? (a VERY short-lived option in most cases)

The devil is in the details.

Then there's the question of what heads it has, what cam is in it, the quality of the machine work, etc. Care to elaborate?

In NO case do I see a turbo as a "good" option, with any kind of long-term future expectations.

I also don't recall the B4C RPO being available as far back as 86. I could be wrong (and mistaken on this particular point even, besides my just general wRongness) but a bit of clarification on that is in order. Obviously it wouldn't have come with the later model brakes (since there's no "features from the future", even my personal acquaintances among the space aliens hadn't figured out by 1986 how to sneeeeek into an assembly plant and install parts that wouldn't exist until several years later), so there's little if any difference in that year in what would have been available in a police car vs a daily driver, anyway. Which is NOT to say it doesn't HAVE the better later-model brakes on it, OR the B4C RPO on its SPID; only, it didn't come with them.

Coming on here and blabbing about "turbo" and "stroker" in your post every other word isn't going to impress any of us, or help get you good advice. Except, I would advise AGAINST the 454, in 2023; although in years past, that might have been a totally different matter.

What's your budget? Timeframe? Goals? Purpose? Intended use? What gears does the car have? What transmission? How much does it weigh? You say it's already had a 454 in it; how tore up is the car NOW? How much do you care about everything besides the engine being "original"-ish?

In 2023, if I was gonna want a trouble-free driver for the least $$$$, I'd probably go with something more nearly like the LS3 (which is not a "small block" as such), if not EXACTLY a LS3, WITHOUT the "turbo". Again, depends on all those other factors. $$$$ not the least.

B4C3rdgen

Jesus I didn’t expect to get the flak from simply asking for help on a site I thought was for help. I apologize for using the word “stroker” so much, but when I signed up to this website and made this post asking for help and recommendations on what to do with my first project car I didn’t do this to impress or blab I made this post to seek help. This is the very first car I’ve ever had for myself as a project car. I simply made this post to see what people would have to say. I’ve never seen the inside of the motor but I found pictures from my dads phone. The car is not torn up whatsoever it’s in perfect condition almost. My plans for the car is just a fun project car to mess around with. That’s it, I am not here to impress anyone by asking about a turbo or saying stroker this, stroker that. I’m here to ask for help from the older audience that has been around cars far longer than I have.

Firechicken82

I'd put the stroker back in. Swapping to a t56 is a whole other deal. In my opinion, a t56 w a stroker would be a ton more fun but replacing w an auto is certainly the path of least resistance. I've done manual swaps it's a project. Not a difficult project but it's a bit of time/parts. Something to think about is the fuel system for the stroker. If you wanna put a turbo on it you'll need a bit of fuel. Lots of stand-alone EFI systems will handle boost and are reasonable in price. Finding out what internals are in it it would be ideal. Either way a free stroker is a good deal and if you can boost it even better.

B4C3rdgen

I was thinking the same thing because it’s ready to go and the car has the mounts and everything ready for it. I’m not using an EFI system on this car though I’m using a 4 barrel carburetor. Please excuse me if I say something that is not correct or is a novice statement, this is my first day and my first post on this website and this Camaro is my first ever personal project car. I’ve been around my dad for years working on his cars and tuning them with him and he’s taught me a lot which is how I know as much as I do but I’ve never had a car of my own to do the real work on.

Firechicken82

You didn't say anything wrong, you're all good. The carb is obviously totally cool but if you do turbo/boost it it will need to be a blow through carb. Just something to think about if you're gonna have to buy a carb. If you have a carb from when the engine was in the car then rebuild it and just use that. Getting into this w the least amount invested is probably the best move. Then you can add to it as you drive it and have a better feel for the car and what you want out of it.

skinny z

IF it's all as you say, then the 377 is the way to go.
Quickest install.
Least expensive.
Being set up for the gen 1 SBC saves a ton of dough in swap parts. Not to mention it's hardly novice territory doing an LS swap. Yeah, it's been done but talk about the devil is in the details..
I've had a BBC Chevy in a 3rd gen. It's a pain in the *** for a number of reasons. I'd pass.
Same with the forced induction.
Since you're asking for advice:
377.
Automatic. Go with what was in it. Probably a 700R4. That again relieves another swap hassle.
Carbureted.
Simple.
But as pointed out in Mr. Kingdom's post, you owe it to yourself to dig into what that 377 is really made of and if it's survived storage. You don't have to take it apart but dig up the casting number on the block., Check out the heads. Is it a hydraulic cam? Solid lifter? Roller or flat tappet? Pull a valve cover. Stuff like that.
It'll make a big difference having that information as you proceed. Some of it you can't proceed without really.
That's just the engine.
Certainly, the rest of car will need maintenance seeing as it's been put away for a while. Speaking of which, how long has been off the road? I may have missed that if you mentioned it.
Search the VIN. Get the RPO codes if the console lid is still the original (it's pasted on the underside).
Send pictures.

Good luck.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

No question in my mind.... put it back to last config with the 377. You have everything needed, almost no cost. Get it back on the road and have fun!

You can contemplate the LS swap while you're having fun driving.

B4C3rdgen

these are the only photos I could find of the engine and I can’t tell if these are photos of the engine for this discussion, but these photos where taken in the same time frame of when my dad pulled the motor out of the car so I’m not certain it’s the 377 because I don’t know how to read any stamps or markings on motors. Worst case scenario I’ll just drive over to the warehouse and take some in detail photos for myself and the thread. Hope this helps. And the car has been off the road since January of 2013.

ironwill

The 377 would be the path of least resistance and will get the car back on the road the quickest and least expensive of the options you list. If you want to go manual trans, now would be the time to do that as well.

As far as turbocharging, that's entirely up to you, but I'd bet that once the small block/T56 is in and running, it'll be such a blast to drive that you'll forget about the turbo and its added complexity and expense.

I'd suggest you start a 'build' thread; it'll help keep you accountable and moving forward while getting help and advice along the way. Welcome to 3rd gen.

skinny z

The pictures above are of the 454.
I'd be keeping that regardless but the small block Chevy is what you're looking for. The 400 will have 3 frost plugs per side whereas the 350 will have only 2.
The 400 was converted to a "stroker" by using a crankshaft out of a 350.
EDIT: Technically, that would be called a "DE-stroker".
Just sayin'.

B4C3rdgen

Okay, where would I find the markings in the head or on the block?

skinny z

The casting number on the block will be located on the topside of the bell housing flange. Where the transmission bolts on. Drivers side. That'll tell you at least the bore size.
​​​​​​
​​​​​​On the heads, it'll be under the valve cover between a couple of valves.

I'll see if I can't dig up some pictures for reference.

skinny z

This should help.

B4C3rdgen

thank you for helping me on where to find the casting number, I’ll identify the motor as soon as I can get to it.

skinny z

Happy to help.
Don't forget to take plenty of pictures and post them.
There are a lot of smart people here at 3rd and often they can spot things that might otherwise go unnoticed.
This sound like a pretty cool project.
It was suggested that at some point you start a build thread. Once you're more or less sorted, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Something I should be doing as well. Although mine would be more of a RE-build thread! (Re-re-build perhaps?).

B4C3rdgen

yeah I apologize if I have a thread in the wrong section of the website or I do something wrong on here this is my second day on the website and I don’t know how to do anything right now or where to post a build thread. As soon as I can get to the motor and car I will take more photos. Also do you think I should pull the oil pan off and inspect the crank, pull the heads off, and look at the camshaft and lifters to observe and figure out what I’m working with?

skinny z

No need to apologize. I've been here for I don't know how many years and I only recently learned that most of the build threads are located in the "Members" forum. Who knew?
Questions are always worth asking.
As for taking it apart, it depends. Your dad can probably offer a lot of insight into what kind of condition it might be in. Pulling the tin off (oil pan, timing cover, valve covers) is a reasonable first step for inspection. A hundred bucks in gaskets and it'll be sealed up again if it's all looking ok. And it could probably use that kind of attention if it's been sitting any length of time. The kind of items tend to whither with lack of use.
How far you go with disassembly will, as stated, depends on the history.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The 1st 2 pics (the one in the car and the one with the krome valve covers) are a small block. Could be a 377 but there's no way to tell from those pics.

All the others are of big block stuff. A relatively late-model 454 block, and some big block heads.

Block casting # is on top of the bell housing flange, behind the driver's side head. This one is a 509, a 73 400 block.



The only 400s that had 3 casting plugs were the early 4-bolt main ones; which aren't as good as the later 2-bolt main ones with only 2 plugs like all the other SBCs, because the 4-bolt ones have far less metal in the webbing around the caps, and since they already have the factory's straight bolt holes in them, it's MUCH harder to put in splayed bolts.

Here's a crappy pic of the same 509 block that the casting number is shown.



You'll have to turn the crank and try to get a casting/forging # off of it to see what the stroke is; or, just directly measure the stroke. 3.48" is 350 stroke, 3.75" is 400 stroke.

Head casting #s are down among the valves & rocker studs. Will have 6, 7 or 8 digits, something like 3927186 (referred to as 186 casting). If you see a number that looks like B120 (1 letter & 3 digits), that's the casting date; B120 would be the 12th day of the Bth month (the 2nd one, February) in a year ending in 0. On some stock heads there's a casting mark on the end of the heads; sometimes that's meaningful as well. These are the heads on that 509 block in the other pics. Note the "double-hump" mark; that's one to look for, on stock heads. If the heads are aftermarket you'd need the part # at the least, but even that won't necessarily tell you what valves are in them, etc. These are 186 casting with the double humps.



The heads in your pic with the krome VCs have angled plugs, and appear to be cast-iron and have the accessory bolt holes in the ends probably, so they might be GM 292 casting, World Products such as the Sportsman series, or Dart Iron Eagles.

Car looks like it's been worked over pretty hard... hard to tell much about it though. Its usefulness as a project car would depend on what all has been done to it (like if it's a gutted race car) and what you intend to make it into.

skinny z

See what I mean?
Some folks have FAR more knowledge than others.
I wasn't aware of the different frost plug numbers although I might have known but old age and memory...That wasn't me trying to spread misinformation although I did a pretty good job of it.

B4C3rdgen

It is not a gutted race car at all, there is no roll cage or anything. My plans are to just have a fun project car for the street. I will attach some photos of the interior.

B4C3rdgen

Firechicken82

I missed this was a stick car. Totally put a t56 in it w the small block. It will be a blast to drive.

B4C3rdgen

only thing I need for a 4l80e is a different shift plate. A 4l80e would bolt to a 377 because it’s the same body as a TH400 correct?

B4C3rdgen

Question, what do you mean the car looks like it’s been worked over pretty hard?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Depends.

You still haven't told us whether this is a 350 with a 400 crank, or a 400 with a 350 crank. Or, which kind of block it is, if it's a 350; 85-back, or 86-up (400 obviously can only be 85-back).

A 4L80E will bolt to either one. Details however will vary somewhat.

Once we get past that, each thing about it will be the same as either a 350, or a 400. Nothing is really special about either one.

"377" isn't very useful.

Under the hood, it looks like it's been kinda ... worked over pretty hard. I see harnesses everywhere, no A/C and probably no heater, etc. I'll give it somewhat of the benefit of the doubt though, in that it looks like the motor is in the process of getting yanked. What you showed of the interior looked fairly recoverable though.

B4C3rdgen

the interior is in near perfect condition the reason for the harnesses everywhere is like you said, engines being yanked. I’m fairly certain my dad took the A/C out when the motor was being pulled or at some other point in time.

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

block casting number is for a 400. Scratch that, I miss looked at pictures.

B4C3rdgen

im sorry I can’t tell you every little aspect of this motor right now. With all due respect what you have to remember for this situation is these two things. First, right now I don’t know everything about engines like how to read casting numbers or how to determine something about the engine. Second, I’ve only seen this engine 2 times in my 16 years of life. That means I’ve only looked at the engine for a few seconds and passed by it. I’m sorry I can’t tell you for the sake of the thread whether it’s a 350 with a 400 crank or the other way around. I will do my best to figure out which block it is and what crank it has in it and what condition it is in.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

If you can't tell us what the motor is, we can't tell you what will bolt up to it.

I've shown you pictures and all, of what to look at, where it is, what some of it means, etc. I've even shown you pics of 400 block casting numbers. You've got the weapons you need to identify it. Get that info and come back with it, we'll try to help out. It's really not that hard if you apply yourself to it. I mean hell, EVEN I can manage it; and I'm about as stuuupid as they come. If I can handle it, surely you can.

B4C3rdgen

I will identify the motor as soon as I can get to it.

skinny z

Same here.
Keep the stick shift for sure. Curious as to what transmission was in it.

B4C3rdgen

The transmission that was in the car with the 377 was a T56 manual 6 speed. if you look in the photo of when the motor was on the ground where you can see the angled plugs you can see the T56 transmission in the background.

B4C3rdgen

The car had a T56 manual in it when the 377 stroker was in it.

skinny z

Perfect. There's part of the plan right there.

B4C3rdgen

I got photos of the block and casting numbers







looks like a 400 block to me. The casting numbers come back as a 400 small block made between 1970’-1980’ out of a car or truck.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

511 block: that's the early (70-71) 400, 4-bolt mains, weeeeeek block webbing. As a 377 then it will be .030" over 400 block w 3.48" (350) stroke. Probably has bearing spacers to accommodate the smaller journals on the crank unless it's a REALLY HIGH-$$$ one with the 400 main journals which would be a seriously special-order deal. Can't tell whether the crank is cast or forged, looks probably forged but hard to be sure.

Heads look like GM, the 292 casting that only has 6 digits. There's another 292 casting # that has 7 digits but that one had the double-hump casting mark like the 186s in my photo up there.

Looks like it had an electric fuel pump in its immediate prior life.

Carb gasket looks like it had one of those Holley 3-bbl carbs on it, but they didn't modify the gasket like it needed, so about 1/3 of the rear barrel was obstructed.

Hard to tell much more than that from the photos.

B4C3rdgen

thanks for the info from what you can tell in the photos. About the block webbing. Should I be concerned?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Sofa you have X-ray eyes to see the webbing 🤣
just a known fact on the 511 block .

B4C3rdgen

511 block as in the casting number 511 block? I’m sorry but I’m not familiar with that.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Depends on what you want to do with it. Generally, no. But for very high RPM or other serious abuse, it's not the best choice. Or for putting splayed-bolt caps on it.

The webbing was just ... lightweight ... in those. It's just the way those 3-freeze-plug blocks were. You gotta remember, in 1970, those things were put in vans, land yachts, stuff like that; and all had 2-bbl carbs. There were 2 "400" motors in those years; the "400 4-bbl", which was a 402 (.030" larger bore 396), and the "400 2-bbl" SBC 400. Think, grandpa motors, as they came from the factory. They had the worst heads, the worst gears, just the ultimate crap everything. Anybody that wanted anything even remotely "sporty" would go for the 4-bbl. They were set up for max torque; think, tight steering in parking lots with the AC on kind of duty. I don't think the factory ever thought that anybody would ever try to use them for anything more stressful than that. The later 2-freeze-plug 400s, like the one I posted photos of, are ALOT more like every other SBC of the time. My wife had a 74 Monte Carlo with a 400 back then, which was a pretty typical car application for them by that time. It was all but indistinguishable from a 350, viewed from the outside. Cool old car... triple black, every option I know of that they came with, except no tape player. She loved it, drove it well up into the 90s.

511 is the last 3 digits of the block casting #, 3951511. Most of the later ones were casting # 509. There was also a 817 but there's not as many of those. I don't know what difference there is, if any, between 509 & 817. Always looked pretty much the same to me.

B4C3rdgen

okay, thanks for the help.