I have an 84 Z28, 305HO mated to a T5. I have to pull the engine and the tranny, as the engine has been severely damaged and the T5 has some grinding in the gears and leaks. Based on how bad the 305 is damaged, I will then choose repair vs LS vs 350 SBC. I've got all the top stuff off the 305, and the manifolds disconnected from the exhaust.
It seems that some folks feel pulling the engine and tranny together is best, and others say to separate them. What are your opinions?
Either way, torque arm cover and driveshaft still need to be removed. If pulling both, should I go ahead and remove the starter? Do I need to remove the torque arm bushing on the transmission for pulling it? Everything I've been able to find was just about changing the bushing, not pulling the tranny.
Sorry for the silly questions. I have searched the forums and the web some, and don't have any clarification as to how best to proceed.

 

Depends on the tools, facilities, & time you have available. Both work fine. Do whichever fits your situation better. If your ceiling is not tall for example, it's MUCH harder to pull them together.

More often than not I pulled them separately butt not always.

This is almost certainly NOT the fault of the transmission. About 99.999% odds, it's the clutch. The other .001% of the time, it's the clutch. Failing to release properly. A common cause is a worn pilot bushing.

You have the 1st design T-5. If it leeeeeeks like this one did, it's TOAST. The case is stretched across the front and this hole is egged out. You can rebuild it every single day, and twice on Sundays just for good measure, and it will still NEVER hold fluid. Best to find another transmission. Which is a shame because if your car really is the HO (L69 engine, VIN code G) you have the good gear ratios.



Note the stain below the countergear bearing. That's from the fluid leeeeeeeking out from around that bearing. The hole in the case that it's supposed to be pressed into is enlarged, and it no longer seals. In fact you can see on this one, the bearing has been spinning in the case and rubbing on the back of the clutch gear bearing retainer (big rusty thing toward the top right). The witness mark is plain and obvious on the surface of the bearing. This is how that transmission nearly always fails. I'd almost be willing to bet money that yours is much the same.

 

Thank you. My shop rafters are 6ft high, which is fine for me but not my taller kids! We pull the engine hoist out into the yard on thick plywood to pull an engine, so we don't have that to worry about. We were planning on replacing the clutch anyway since we would be tearing everything else apart as it was. Once we get everything out, I can take a better look and see if the circle is now an egg. Certainly would rather not have to replace the tranny as well, but this may end up being a "if you give a mouse a cookie" story.

So if I pull it together, do I need to remove the starter (it's coated with oil so it's just nasty) and the torque arm bracket on the transmission?
Any and all suggestions are welcome to make this job a little more fun and easier are welcome!

From the codes in the center console:

GT4 3.73 gear (dup with 5x1)
K19 reactor system, air injection
L69 5.0L 4BBL HO engine
MK6 5sp, Borg Warner, 2.951st, O/D
MM5 merchandised trans, man 5sp provisions

 

The easiest way by far to pull a motor and transmission together is to remove the front bumper. I have a harbor freight 2 ton lift and on the furthest extention I can just barely get the chain on the motor. Its easiest with 2 people. You can pull the transmission, as long as you unbolt and detach the crossmember. you will also need to remove the radiator and fan assembly. Pulling the hood helps because you have to lift the assembly pretty high to get over the radiator support. you might be able to do it without, but its by far the easiest this way. Pull a few parts, save yourself the headache.

I have also removed a drivetrain by unbolting the front subframe, but then you have to deal with the springs, messing up your alignment, and lifting the car is a bit sketchy. When I strip cars for parts and I don't care about the body, this is the easiest way, but I am not reassembling anything.

I've seen people lift from the fenders, but I have never done that personally.

 

Probably. It'll keep the engine from moving forward enough for the bell housing to clear the tunnel to allow it to lift high enough for the starter to clear the K-member to allow the engine to move forward enough... Gotta take the wiring off of it anyway, which is AHELLUVALOT eeeeeeezier if the starter is loose.

Depends on if you care what happens when it all comes apart. I'd say yes though, since leaving it in will create far more work than the tiny trivial bit of work you get out of by not removing it. A typical shortcut IOW. If you raise the rear of the chassis until the wheels are off the ground and support the chassis at the front ends of the rear control arms, then raise the pumpkin back up just enough to get it up off of the shock absorbers' extension limiters on both sides, then support the axles with jack stands under the axle tubes with both shocks just barely unloaded like that (under the axle tubes ONLY: NOT under any of the brackets, NOT under the pumpkin, NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT) then you can remove and reinstall the TA with essentially zero effort. You'll have to have the crossmember out anyway, and the rear of the transmission free to go wherever it wants to; and the shifter at least unbolted from the transmission and supported up high out of the way, if not all the way removed. And of course the speedo cable and drive shaft. If you have a loose yoke you can put in the rear of the transmission, it'll help keep the mess under a bit more control.

You probably won't be able to see the countergear bearing bore being distorted, with just the naked eye. It only ovals out acoupla .001"s usually. Butt that's enough for it to do what it does. And even worse than leeeeeeeking, when the case "stretches", it allows the countergear to move away from the clutch gear, which EATS the gears, which increases the force tending to "stretch" the case, which stretches the case some more, which allows the 2 gears to separate further, which EATS the gears, which increases the force trying to stretch the case, which increases the distortion, which increases the misalignment, which EATS the gears, which increases the force, which stretches the case, which ... I think you can see where this is going. It's a destructive positive feedback loop, that we might refer to as "circling the drain". The moral of the story is, once it starts, it's self-perpetuating, and not repairable even if new gears are installed, rendering the transmission TRASH. An unfortunate reality and inevitable consequence of the parts choices our cars were initially blessed with.

 

From what I have seen, removing the torque arm itself is not the end of the world, but removing the bushing up in the tranny can be a challenge. I'll work on getting the starter off tonight, as well as see what the TA will be like. I've not taken a driveshaft off before (new things every day) either so it will be an adventure.
I already have the nose and hood off, radiator and fan out, all wiring pulled up and out of the way. It looks like I should have room to move the engine plenty of room forward and up...hopefully. I'll add pics later

 

There's no "bushing up in the tranny".

Support the axle like I said, unbolt the TA's 2 bolts that hold it to the rear, slide it out. Piece o cake. Once you get the car jacked up it takes less time to actually do the work than it did to type all that. It's just a car, after all.

Drive shaft is 4 7/16" or 11mm (about .1mm or .004" difference between those 2 sizes) bolts that hold the little straps to the yoke, and a pry bar to get the caps up out of the yoke, then slide it out of the back of the transmission. Takes MAYBE 5 minutes if you're slow like me and stop for a cold one after each bolt besides. Pay careful attention to which cap goes where. Inspect the trunnions where they go into the caps, and replace both U-joints if they're worn.

 

Running the wrong gear oil can also cause grinding. The newer synthetics can be too 'slick' and not allow the synchros to do their job. We have that problem in our '86 SVO we used to autocross. Full synthetic ATF (recommended for the trans in the car) are too slick and will cause grinding on quick upshifts. Take your time, and everything's fine.

6' ceiling?!? Sounds like you'll be pulling them separate, unless you get creative.

 

You can see from the pic how low the rafters are! On the previous engines (one Nissan, one Honda) we pulled the Nissan in the yard but the Honda we had to lift the car off the engine. That was a bit more challenging!

 

Sofaking I did what you suggested and raised the axle tubes a little and I had the entire TA out in less than 20 minutes. Thank you!
I am being a bit lazy here, but the bolts are being a bit stubborn, so do I need to remove the torque arm attachment bracket from the transmission to remove the engine/tranny together? See pics for what I mean. I'll do what you guys suggest, I just am not sure if it is a necessary step. Forgive me if this is stupid! This is by far the most I've ever done mechanically speaking

 

Not at all. The coupla ounces of extra weight won't hurt a thing except for making it very slightly more tail-heavy.

 

Happy Thanksgiving! My afternoon of thanks was allowing me to be able to pull the motor and tranny out today. Slow and steady. The drivers side rear motor mount bolt was a challenge to reach. There were multiple wires still connected to the back of the engine I could not see before. But before supper I had the engine on the stand and the tranny on the ground.

 

Cool. 'Been there - done that...

 

Three years ago I did my first oil change, at 46 years old. For me to be able to pull an engine is something I never thought I could ever do. I'm so far out of my comfort zone doing this so I'm pretty dang stoked

 

Quite sure I know the answer here, but it appears I blew holes in two pistons. I have not pulled off any caps yet to see what the bearings look like. But with blown pistons, it would be cheaper/easier to get a replacement engine (350 or LS) than do all it would take to repair this, correct?

 

Time for a 350...

 

Detonation. I see detonation.

 

There was definitely detonation early on. I had no idea what I was doing, and with no way to check timing (no pointer, no marks) I just had to time by ear, and there was a while there that anytime I got on the throttle even a little there was a ton of pinging.

 

This is a cruiser, not a race car, so I really don't care about high HP. I had 195 at the wheels (dyno'd the car) so I would like closer to 300whp, but am not going to be picky.

My 2000 Silverado has a 5.3 with 341k and we will likely pull it and drop a 6.0L into that, so I will have the truck 5.3 I could put in the Camaro. I would keep the T5 since it should be able to handle that degree of power. I would get the wiring harness from the 6.0.

If I went 350, I'd have to find another engine, but it would drop in much easier than the 5.3. Fewer mods to make, and I could eventually switch from carb to EFI with more time and money

 

No one said anything about putting a race engine in it...

 

What did it run like right before it came out?

 

I apologize if that came across wrong. All I meant was to share what the car's intended use would be. If it were to be a street/strip car then I would be looking at going one way, a show car a different way, and just a regular cruiser a third way. Make sense?

The engine ran well before hand, as long as there was plenty of oil before going anywhere. I had to almost always add a qt before driving anywhere as it leaked/burned so much. It wasn't until I overheated it (threw the belt) and it started knocking really bad.

My son (18yo) said the oil pickup isn't supposed to look like a disco ball 😮... Little flakes of metal all around

 

Then the pistons probably don't have holes in them. If they did, there would be SO MUCH blowby, that the dipstick wouldn't stay in, the PCV system would have got launched, seals would blow out, etc. etc. etc.

All I see there anyway, is just the crud built up on them, that has flaked and come off unevenly.

And yes, it's time for a 350. The cost to rebuild a 305 is EXACTLY the same as that to rebuild a 350, except for the cost of the core - i.e., the thing you're going to "rebuild". Butt, there's LOTS of thing going on ALWAYS, besides just "rebuild"; you're probably not going to put the old water pump back on, you'll likely change out the motor mounts, it'll get new belts & hoses, a new clutch, maybe a few sen-sores here and there, maybe a starter and/or alternator if those are old and tired, various exhaust work, ignition parts, and of course, all the fluids. Start adding all that stuff up, plus the cost of the "rebuild" itself (rings & pistons, bearings, etc.) PLUS all the machine work it will need, and you'll quickly see that the cost of the engine core DISAPPEARS into the noise around the project. It's TRIVIAL compared to everything else. THEN, realize that you'll get about 15% MORE out of the result, FOR FREE, and it gets REAL HARD to argue that "rebuilding" a 305 makes any kind of economic sense at all.

Best to face up to that sort of logic before spending THE FIRST DIME on that 305, and start looking for some old 350 to rebuild. Good candidates would be found in late 80s though mid 90s trucks & vans. There's PLENTY of wore-out work vehicles around whose motors would cost EXACTLY the same to "rebuild" as that 305 in the state that it's in, that you can probably pick up the motor as a core (not guaranteed to run) for suitably cheeeeeeep. And a 95-back won't carry the "Vortec" premium that a 96-up would, if you're not looking for max power.

 

Those pistons could be cracked and still not have blow by (a "hole" in them).

Might want to upgrade your readers to a #3. In the first pic, you can see the top ring. A lot more has "flaked off" that piston, than carbon build up.

 

Well, doesn't too much matter one way or the other at this point anyway, it's all going in the trash.

 

Agree.

 

Last question that I will bother you guys with: since it is the 305HO variety, are these heads worth anything, to try and list here or on FB Marketplace? I don't see any obvious issues with them, but again, this is a whole new world for me.

Sincerely, thank you

 

Pretty sure the "HO heads" are the same as LG4 heads. I believe the diff in the HO was compression, exhaust manifolds and cat back, and cam. Oh yeah, and that dual snorkel.

 

HO heads were casting 416, same as LG4. Eeeeeezzzy enough to verify: casting # is down in between the rockers toward the right end of them as viewed from the exhaust side. As Tom said the differences were elsewhere. Cam, compression, exhaust, electric fan, ai cleaner, tuning, ... butt the heads were identical.

 

Yes, 416 casting. So nothing really of value to keep or try and sell, just put it out there and see what bites, I guess

 

No, nothing of any particular value. Not "no value": rather, "very little", "in general". Doesn't mean somebody won't buy it; just, don't expect much. It's only 305 parts after all, and nobody really wants any of that for anything.

 

I too would not build my TPI 305 if it failed. I'd go with a 350, as Sofakingdom and others said.

The 350 requires 350 Knock Sensors, Fuel Injectors, ESC (Electronic Spark Control) and 350 "PROM" .As I recall.

Last I checked, some of the online car "valuation" sights (NADA, Hagerty Insurance, Kelly Blue Book (KBB) or whatever, I forget) add 10% value with a 350, over 305.

 

just for info purposes,
if you have never flushed your brake system and or install new brake hoses, these parts are 30+ years old now.
I would raise the front of the car and drop the entire engine/trans out the bottom with the cradle.

This way you can inspect the suspension, brake fluid, brake hoses and all the other goodies that might need attention.
I did it this way with my LS swap, and the things i found and changed, and powder coated made it all worth while to me..

 

When I got the car, the suspension was shot and the brakes would not hold, so I replaced the soft brake lines, rotors, calipers and pads. I also replaced the front struts, both tie rods and ball joint assemblies, as well as the front sway bar links; the same was done in the rear as well, but I also replaced the rear springs. With the engine out I plan to power wash the bay and repaint it, so that it will eventually be ready for a new engine.

Any references to wiring to know what the different wires and relays go to that I will need to keep? I'm going to ID and label as many wires as I can to try and help clean things up in the future.

 

Can't speak to "clean things up"; I usually do that at the car wash. Don't really have to mess with wires for that.

Apart from that, THE ENTIRE computer-related wiring harness, comes out of the pass side fender near the blower motor. It is ENTIRELY separate and discrete from all other wiring in the car. Trace every wire, disconnect it and peel it back CAREFULLY, remove the U-shaped clippy thing on the inside behind the pass side kick panel where it comes through the windshield cowl, unplug it, put it in a box against the possibility you might need it someday. Maybe stash whatever sen-sores and things you come across, in your box along with it. It'll leave a hole about 3" x 4" that you'll need to block: a piece of sheet metal and some Windo-Weld should do the trick.