peterc005

The exhaust heat will probably give your stainless headers a blue hue anyway.

If it was me (and I can be a bit rough) I'd be inclined to fit the headers with the steering shaft removed, and then use a big piece of 4*2 wood pivoted against the engine mount to "encourage" the first tube to move out the way for you.

I'm thinking now about doing the Jeep/Astro van steering joint upgrade at the same time as installing the headers!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Blued stainless looks really neat anyway.

peterc005

Interesting photo. Seems to show how the heat builds up around sharp bends where the steel goes blue.

TreeFiddy

Actually that doesn't look too bad at all. No way to avoid it I guess - never had a car with stainless anything before, I could live with that

TreeFiddy

Removed the lower steering shaft today, and did a test fit:





Fits in the space pretty good, but the bolt hole spacing leaves a bit to be desired. The holes are within about +/- 1mm from where they should be, but not close enough. Means I can get 3 or 4 of them in, but not all 6 at once.

If I lay my copper gasket over the top, I can stick 5 bolts through, but the end one is this far out:



However, I noticed that on the factory manifold, the two inner mount bolt holes are about 0.4" diameter, while the four outer holes are 0.5" diameter. On this header, all 6 holes are 0.4", so I'll drill the four outer ones to 0.5" and see if it falls into place.

As for the steering shaft - here it is laid over the top of the mounted header. It is sitting about 2" higher than where it needs to be, and you can see where the interference points are:





The pinch point on the front pipe needs to be moved over about 5mm, plus another say 5mm for clearance. Then clearly the intermediate joint needs to be replaced with the Astro type, in order to drop down beside the cyl# 6 pipe.

Btw, that joint is not a rag joint, nor is it rubber as I had been led to believe from research elsewhere here. It is an articulated uni joint, just a massive one



It looks like Brunell designed it as part of a bridge or something in the 19th century - anybody know if this is the factory joint, or have I had some weirdness go on with my rhd conversion?

peterc005

That's interesting. I guess LHD cars have a rag joint and RHD cars with HQ steering boxes have a big-*** joint.

I know the LHD Camaro steering boxes and HQ boxes have quite different ratios, although the HQ variable ratio steering box has a good reputation.

Looks like and Astro joint might solve this and be easier than cutting the pipe.

Looks like you might be able to cut and shut a 1cm section from the front pipe near the flange and then bend the pipe in a bit.

TreeFiddy

That would be the plan I guess.

Note that the final joint to the steering box input shaft IS a rag joint. What 2 joints do you have on yours?

There is also that rubber sleeve right in the middle of the lower shaft, which seems to connect the fatter front half of the shaft to the thinner rear half. Don't know what it's function is, or if it's yet another joint. It doesn't flex or articulate.

Anyone know if this whole lower shaft is factory, or is it the Frankenshaft?

Edit: Added pic of said shaft:

peterc005

I think mine is the same. Given the similarities between Camaro and Holden HQ steering boxes I'd expect it to use a rag joint.

TreeFiddy

Aha just came across this link comparing the Jeep shafts to the oem GM one, with pics:

http://www.v8s10.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=32602

Looks like they used ol' Frankenshaft on the S10's as well. It is factory. Now gotta find me a Cherokee in the wreckers somewhere.

peterc005

Good find! Looks like the Jeep Cherokee shaft is the one to get.

I assume the Grand Cherokee is thicker and heavier because it's a bigger vehicle. As these are for 4WD vehicles I suspect they are designed for heavier loads than required for road cars like Camaros.

Wonder how a Jeep Cherokee shaft compares with an Astro Van?

TreeFiddy

No idea, easier to find one off a moon buggy than an Astro van over here .

I did however go to the wreckers today. Found 2 Cherokee's and a Grand Cherokee. The rhd version of the shafts look identical to the ones pictured in the link above. The Grand one is definitely the sexier of the two. Both look like a pita to get out though, probably a couple hours work moving other stuff out of the way like ac, brake master, abs unit, etc etc.

The steering setup is the same as a thirdgen - box up front, with trailing pitman + idler arms and drag link. The box would have to come off the chassis rail to dis-engage the input spline, then you could disconnect the double-D top end and slide the shaft out.

Another option I've been looking at is new joints. For a couple hundred you can get 2 new joints, and a section of collapsible shaft you can cut down to size. For instance, these Flaming River joints are extremely slimmed down, would work well for header clearance:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLA-FR1935/

Looking at the u-joint on Frankenshaft, I think it actually might be a clever piece of kit. If you contra-rotate it hard, there is a slight give and spring return feel, which I believe is a vibration damper. I notice a few people who've done the shaft swap complain of harsher feel, probably the Astro/Jeep shafts are not damped in this way.

I would just get a new top joint for Frankenshaft (can't stop using this word now ), but can't see any way of getting it off - think it's welded, and I'm reluctant to destroy the one good shaft of any kind that I have.

peterc005

Those Flaming River joints look pretty trick!

I suspect the inner and outer shafts are just a safety thing, designed to collapse in an accident.

It's interesting how smart GM was about reusing common components across a heap of different cars. The Camaro ball joints must have been put in a hundred million cars over the years, including HQ-series Holdens.

Headers aside, the universal-joint steering shaft upgrade seems like a good idea.

TreeFiddy

Didn't know that about the ball joints, handy to know.

Yeah, the collapsible thing is a safety feature - though I suspect if you had an impact large enough to collapse it, that would be the least of your worries. You could cheap out and get a length of solid shaft for about $15-ish, but personally I'd rather spend the extra. I'm guessing it would be a rego issue too, in a blue-slip situation.

Referring back to this thread:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ng-column.html

I noticed Aussiroc also has an aftermarket uni joint - post 1, pic 3. He seems to have vanished though, so can't interrogate him .

peterc005

Found something interesting:

http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Image:IMG_0820.jpg

Appears there is a polyurethane, rather than rubber or rag, bushing for HQ steering shafts.

itsMikey

totally off topic from headers but id love a RHD GTA

peterc005

These might be a cheaper option than Flaming river:

http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS-Performan...13380/10002/-1

Wonder if you can get an equivalent in Australia?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/STEERING-...#ht_1884wt_906

TreeFiddy

Not for header fitment you wouldn't

There are cheaper ones like that, nice and chromy too, but I picked the one I linked earlier to because it was the slimmest. Figured function over form in this case.

Quite possibly. I live not far from Rocket, who specialise in hot-rod and sprint car stuff - nice big warehouse and a nice fat catalog. They are also a Jegs reseller afaik; I'll pop up there when I get a chance and eyeball some of this stuff.

TreeFiddy

Also, have had one of those poly rag joints for many years now. Still no play after nearly a decade .

peterc005

I think you are right and the Flaming River uni joint looks good. They have a couple of local distributers as well.

Also notice that FR sell a collapsible steering shaft as well.

If I get a chance I'll pull the steering shaft out of my car on the weekend and measure the shaft.

TreeFiddy

Assume you've checked out their site http://www.flamingriver.com/, lots of goodies.

Also Borgeson http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/index

On to tonight's photo expose'.

Went to Rocket today, and looked at a Flaming River joint. They didn't have the low profile one I linked to earlier in stock, so I measured a slightly larger billet joint which they were nice enough to pop out of the packaging for me.

It measured at 40mm OD, versus 63mm for the stock joint. This would give 11.5mm better clearance to the header primary, have yet to estimate whether this gets me over the line.

Billet joint:



Stock joint:



Basically, it's going to be a matter of sourcing the telescopic shaft, then picking the uni joints to match that, and the upper column + steering box ends.

On to the lh header. Fitted that up, went in no problems. Had to remove the ps bracket of course, the one that fits on the front manifold stud. The bolts were the same as the right side - could get the middle 3 in, but the other hole positions were slightly out. Gotta get both headers on my dad's drill press on the weekend and open 'em up a little.



The collector ends clear everything fine. Right hand side:



And left hand side:



This side hands pretty low, it's going to require a fairly sharp 90 degree bend for the y-pipe to tuck up under the sump.

peterc005

Will you just reuse your stock steering shaft and just add a couple of notches?

I notice that FR has a few distributors in Australia. Is that one P/N FR1935?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Why not just make some headers that fit ?

peterc005

Very expensive and possibly pretty rough.

I got a quote of $2,000 and two weeks to custom-make plain steel headers by a local exhaust shop.

These ones are nice stainless steel and it looks like there will only be a couple of mods needed.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Thats pretty rough, it sure looks like they wouldnt be hard to make with a few more pictures, and easily done at less than half that.

HMPH.

TreeFiddy

I've been quoted similar figures to Peter for a custom set - not up for that And that's not including the Y-pipe. Stuff like this costs a bundle over here - even for parts, which retail at typically double or even triple US prices.

I didn't really want to settle for 1.5" primaries, but these were stainless and cheap. I took the gamble that they might fit around the steering shaft, and lost. But only just barely - I've got these now, and have to make them work. I might be able to find a shop to do the mods for a couple hundred, or heat and bend myself.

Don't notice tooo many guys fabbing their own headers on these boards

Fabbing a set myself is something I'd love to do, but don't have the skills or equipment to attempt yet. I can stick weld thicker steel well enough to make something like a wonderbar, railing, gate repair etc, but the thin metal and high visibility of the typical header situation is currently beyond me. I will HAVE to have a go at the Y-pipe though, at least that's less visible.

Peter - that FR joint pictured is FR1707DD. It's a 1" DD to 3/4" smooth bore. Probably would need a 3/4" DD for the exit side, just picked it at random to measure the OD.

peterc005

My plans for the exhaust are:

* a set of these stainless headers,
* to fabricated Y pipe with 3" outlet
* 3" Magnaflow catalytic converter
* Magnaflow 16829 Stainless Steel 3" Dual Cat-Back Exhaust System

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I'm not sure what shipping would run, but if someone were able to make some in 1.75" mild, for about half that, would there be enough interest, serious interest, for something like 3-5 confirmed orders ?

peterc005

There are not many of these cars in Australia, mainly due to the hassle of RHD conversions, so I don't think there would be enough demand.

The Flowtech design seems to be the least painless for RHD cars, and these Stainless Steel headers are a Chinese clone of the Flowtech. They may not be the greatest design, but they are the easiest for RHD cars.

The LH headers fit unmodified. The RH headers seem to need two modifications.

The rag to uni joint conversion looks like it might fix one problem, and is probably a worthwhile upgrade in ti's own right anyway.

The biggest pain is the first/forward RH tube, which comes out too far and interferes with the steering shaft. I suspect that removing a 1 or 2 cm section from the RH front header horizontal section where it leaves the flange.

I can see the big pain being neatly cutting and welding these stainless steel headers.

Maybe there is a market for pre-modified headers?

peterc005

Here's a good article in Camaro Performance Magazine about installing a Flaming River universal joint in the third gen Camaro steering shaft:

http://www.camaroperformers.com/proj...ering-box-kit/

TreeFiddy

Great link! Looks like just what we're proposing. The bellows protecting the slip joint might interfere with the primary pipe, but I think they have a version (or was it Borgeson) that have a slip shaft with a slimmer rubber cover.

Your full parts list there is exactly the one I have settled on. Do you have a preferred shipping agent for the catback? I've only done some sketchy looking around thus far, can't find one that does sea freight. Best I've found so far is air delivery, and about $200 for the 25kg package.

Possibly, but like Peter said these cars are pretty rare over here - for instance I don't personally know anyone else here in Sydney who owns one. They are around in small numbers, though I suspect that anyone serious about upkeep and/or modding them has found TGO by now, and probably this thread. There is a local forum here, I seem to remember a few years back, a thread from a local vendor who sells the Flowtechs, proposing a short run of pre-modified ones from the States several years back. It never happened afaik.

1.75" would be great, but unfortunately the wider the primary, the worse the interference with the steering shaft. It also comes down to the individual car and how the rhd conversion was done - the steering box can end up at various distances from the chassis rail depending on the converter. So designing a set of one-size-fits-all headers may be difficult.

My rough pricing for this proposal - headers + y-pipe:

Chinese knockoff headers: $280 shipped
New steering shaft (2 off uni joints + shaft): Approx $250 shipped
2.5" and 3" mandrels bends for Y-pipe: Approx $150 shipped
Cheap Tig welder: Approx $250 shipped

So $930. Take off the cost of the welder (it's a tool) and go a Jeep shaft instead (lets say $50), were up to min $480, or max $930, for everything forward of the cat.

peterc005

I use East Coast Mustang for shipping and they charge $50 a box for shipping. They bring cars across in containers and just fill up any void space in the containers with boxes.

Part of the trick is to keep the value of the goods and shipping to less than $1,000 to avoid the cost of a customs declaraion and GST ($160 + 10%).

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I understand what you mean on the low production, I just also know that aside from the fact that the cheap knockoff stuff typically getting past peoples initital review because they're shiny, and they've found a way to polish a turd, they are virtually always made of subpar materials, with subpar workmanship, that lower cost comes from somewhere even when you cant see it initially. Not to mention the 1.5" primary OD, and i'm guessing extra thick wall on that tubing, it would be surprising if they even outflowed something like L69 stock manifolds.

peterc005

Personally, I've looked around the the best header options for RHD Camaros, and these stainless steel Flowtech copies are the best choice.

Yes, the pipes could be bigger, and yes they are copies, but they seem the least work to fit.

My understanding is that Flowtech copied someone else s design for these headers.

In an ideal world someone would sell headers specifically designed for RHD Camaros, but that is now the case.

The construction and finish of these headers seems pretty decent. I assume that because they are doing them in volume they have the right tools for welding stainless steel.

TreeFiddy

Yeah, the choices over here seem to be either mod the FT's or fab your own. That's another reason I started this thread; I was hoping someone would chime in with measurements of something better like the Hookers or Hedmans, but unfortunately nothing was forthcoming.

So this is the path I've gone - I would think though that just separating each cylinder's exhaust flow would have a beneficial effect regardless of primary diameter, over a manifold. And ditching the factory T-pipe too. Of course, if this was a track or strip car living at wot this compromise would be less than suitable.

Even if I get no noticeable performance increase, at least I'll have had a crack at tig, which if it works out will let me build a better custom set in future. For me, this is more about the learning exercise than squeezing out every last hp.

TreeFiddy

For anyone interested in the 'cheap Chinese headers' angle, as opposed to the rhd problem - some further notes about fit.

As mentioned above, I could only get 3-4 bolts out of 6 per side, to screw into the heads. The bolt hole spacing is a little inconsistent. I noted however, that the factory manifolds two centre bolt holes are 0.4" diameter, while the four outer holes are 0.5". On these headers, all holes are 0.4".

So I opened the outer holes up to 0.5" diameter to match the factory manifolds, and all 12 bolts mounted right up. Snugged them up all the way, no more problems.

Test fit my mini-starter (well waved it around anyway), tons of room, no re-indexing necessary. Looks like prolly plenty of room for a stock starter too, I'll poke the corpse of my old one around tomorrow, out of curiosity's sake.

Tried the plugs. I could screw them all in, but will need to find/make a special wrench to tighten them - no way to get a socket on them anymore. This is not an uncommon problem with headers in these engines, I suspect. 90 degree boots (or angle plug heads) are definitely required, happily my leads already are. The tightest fit were cyls #1 and #5, with about 3-4mm from the plug boot to the primary pipe. Might or might not be too close, have to run it to find out.

I don't have 'shorty' plugs, and have no idea if they're available over here. My current Bosch plugs measure 53mm from the taper seat, to the tip of the wire connector - don't know how much shorter the 'shorties' are.

Edit: Fwiw - after checking, no clearance issue with stock starter either. These headers are pretty small.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I wouldnt stress the primary size at all. Itll be plenty for you and it will be a huge improvement over that stupid log. I know guys in the 10s on 1 5/8s primary headers. If they can do that, then your 305 (or 350) thats mostly stock can handle some 1.5 inch primaries.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...10-post16.html

I disagree with him on various things, but this definitely rings of truth to me. People like to think their cars need huge gigantic headers and exhaust systems etc, but they really dont. Just getting your exhaust flow separated so that the rear cylinders in each bank arent fighting for exhaust space in that stupid log will make the majority of the difference, but I bet it will flow just fine.

Stock LS1 manifolds are 1.5 inches:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...manifolds.html



And here...

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...t/viewall.html

The difference between stock LS1 manifolds and 1 7/8s headers on a nonstock engine is 20hp. I really doubt your engine is pushing 300 crank horsepower in its near stock configuration.

And remember, LS1 manifolds are actually decent... they are pretty similar to shorties for our cars, check the pictures I linked to in that thread. So dont fret about being 50hp down because of the 1.5 primaries. They'll hold you back a little Im sure, but the TPI will hold you back a LOT more than the headers will.



As for the spark plugs... I'd recommend seeing if you can get a hold of something like this that I have. Changed my spark plug swaps from a few hours of struggling under and over the car with several different sockets and wrenches and attachments to 5 minutes from the top.

http://www.harborfreight.com/21-piec...set-67974.html

It's not useful for a lot of work in tight spaces, but it is PERFECT for spark plugs with headers.

peterc005

Some fantastic posts here. Very useful.

TreeFiddy

That's a pretty funky wrench - looks like a toilet brush handle with a ratchet head I'll scout around for something like that, or torch a bend into a cheap spanner.

Thanks for the insight, Infernal. This car is never going to see a track; if that was the case, I wouldn't be dinking around with this cheap stuff, and certainly wouldn't be running this entire top end (624 heads yaay!). This project is not about max numbers, more about gaining experience. Performance-wise, the goal is to help the exhaust get out of it's own way by removing the two most obvious restrictions - the log manifold, and the T in the so-called y-pipe.

I seem to remember a Vizard article where he was happy with 1.5 primaries up to about 350 hp, not sure though. This motor maaay get up in the 300 hp level one day, if I ever do anything about the heads. But until then, it's a dd / weekend wonder which will spend little time at wot, so I don't see much point in sizing things for full time wot operation, especially with the cost that would involve. Wider primaries are a liability with this steering shaft issue.

On a side note, my dad's built a set of headers for his 50 year old Morris - 4 cyl, under 2 litre, maybe 60-70 hp. He has 1.5 primaries, so I'm getting all kinds of attitude about that

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I fixed the link, but heres the sockets Im talking about. Hopefully you can see better what it is:

http://www.harborfreight.com/21-piec...set-67974.html

TreeFiddy

Funny, that link didn't work either but I think I tracked it down:

http://www.harborfreight.com/21-piec...set-67974.html

There will be something similar at Supercheap (Aussie Harbor equivalent) I'm sure.

Edit: Nope, that link didn't work either. The forum server is contracting it for some reason. If you enter 67974 into the HF site search box, it'll come up though.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Well now THAT's weird... because you said it didnt work, so I clicked it again - worked fine. I then clicked it again... and it didn't work...

heat seeker

iTrader: (5)

Here's the link to the Jeep steering shaft mod.....I just ordered one, maybe this might help.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...t-upgrade.html.

This guy has some available ready-to-ship.....

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...ng-shafts.html

TreeFiddy

Thanks for the heads-up, I'll check it out.

austleadfoot

watching with abated breath,due to a zz4 going in on the weekend.
the steering shaft is standard but the coupling that goes on to the steering box is different ( eg hq not camaro/firebird)so the jeep one may not fit onto the hq steering box.when i replaced my steering shaft i had to grind off the camaro coupling off the rubber ring and replace it with the hq one

peterc005

I've started this thread about RHD Saginaw steering boxes:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ml#post5405538

austleadfoot

might be a silly ? but if u bolt the engine support bracket to the wrong side aparently i moves the engine side ways a little. does any one know which way ?

subroc

iTrader: (2)

I didnt read through all your thread to see if you had already done this but on the LHD cars in the states there is a plate that mounts the steering column to the firewall and is held in with three bolts that you can get to near the pedals. If you take those bolts out you can move the shaft over and away from the engine about 1/4". Then all you have to do is redrill new holes in that plate and bolt it back down in its new position. It might just be the ticket to getting those headers to fit combined with a new rag joint. I had to do it to clear a set of headers here in the states.

TreeFiddy

Austleadfoot:

I've read something along those lines too, where guys manipulate the mounts and heave the engine about, to make a little extra room for installation. However, I can't see it getting me the extra 20-30mm I need for #6 pipe to clear the uni joint.

I've just bought a jeep shaft from another member here; it may or may not fit the HQ box input. Will post up results when it arrives.

Why did you replace your steering shaft, and what did you replace it with?

Subroc:

Good thought, but wouldn't get me enough extra clearance either. In any case, my steering column appears to be pushed through a new hole made in the rhs of the firewall, that is exactly the diameter of the column housing. No room for lateral movement.

I can see how this would get a little extra on the factory side with the 3 bolts, that hole is fairly large iirc. I actually put it to use for a new loom I wanted thru the firewall.

austleadfoot

got a genuine one from ponti world.then had to grind the rivets out of the rubber ring and replace it with the hq coupling 4 the steering box

TreeFiddy

Hmm, I might be out of luck with my Jeep shaft then. Research indicated that the oem thirdgen box and the hq box shared the same input shaft, 1/2" 36 spline iirc. Oh well, I'll know for sure when I get it.