92frmlatpi

Ok,

Here's the deal everyone, I own a 92 firebird formula, l98 350 and I really want to find out exactly what modifications SLP made to the l98 motor, intake, exhaust, and the block and heads themselves. I am just now starting to try and restore this car after a wreck and while i am restoring it. i want to convert to a automatic version of the firehawk. I have the factory gfx delete, the ws6 performance suspension package and so only have to replace factory components on most of the suspension to achieve this and so just need to find out what to do on the engine, if anyone has any ideas, please please please post me or message me back.

thanks,
92frmlatpi

92RS(real slow)

well most of the firehawks didnt even have l98's almost all had differnt engines, and they had the T-ram intake, suspension wise im not really sure

jkicak

no no no.. they sure DID use the L98... here is a quote from the firebird tech data page:

92RS(real slow)

Some of them did have the l98, but the majority of them didn't thats what I meant

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

So help us understand here.

Do you actually HAVE one of the 26 or whatever it was Firehawks?

Or are you trying to clone one, sort of?

Or are you trying to say that because you have the L98, you think yours should be identical to the Firehawk for some reason?

Or do you just want to improve how your engine runs?

I'd recommend laying off the "WS6" buzzword, just because that's very popular nowadays since cars started coming out with badges that say that, doesn't mean much to YOUR car. WS6 has been around since at least as far back as 83 (my 83 has it); it merely meant something different every year.

You can buy MUCH better parts to modify your car than what SLP used for modifying theirs; for a SMALL FRACTION of the cost of buying the exact stuff that they put on those. You can end up with a whole lot better car too, for that matter; for YOUR purposes. They did what they did to their cars for a whole set of reasons, some of which may not apply to you; for example, their cars had to be serviced under the GM warranty, they had to be 50-state emissions-certified, and so forth. And since you and they have different reasons for doing what you do, then that probably logically leads to doing different things.

What are you REALLY trying to do (buzzword-free please)?

jkicak

not to flame but there were only 25 firehawks made for 91 and 92 (8 made in 91 and 17 in 92) and of those 25 only 3 of them had all aluminum blocks(clearly these wouldn't be L98s) the rest of them would have been moded L98s.

if anybody has more data on this please share links as i'd love to learn more about the 3rd gen firehawks.


sorry to seal the thread..

anyway, the 22 L98 firehawks had:

forged steel crankshaft, 1053 alloy forged steel "Pink" connecting rods, lightweight high silicon cast aluminum pistions, steel billet hydraulic roller camshaft, high output aluminum cylinder heads with stainless steel valves, high flow, down draught, TPI intake manifold and stainless steel tubular exhaust manifolds and dual catalytic exhaust system. Drive Train: 6-speed corvette ZF manual transmission, Dana 3" low-mass aluminum driveshaft, Dana 44 limited slip rear axle with 3.54:1 final drive ratio and 8.5-inch ring gear, 1LE brake system, 17x9.5 inch cast aluminum wheels and high durometer suspension bushings

for the record i thinkn it is poor judgement to put firehawk on something that is NOT a firehawk....

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

WS6 has been around since the early 70s

1991Formula350

I get ticked off because it is hard to get info on them, it's not a mercedes or BMW you know so they shouldn't be stuck up. Anyway, i am going to get my regular Formula and beef it up to about 500 plus HP and call it Firehawk killer. Andy

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Thats what I did.. but it is/was a 89 Formula 350

okfoz

The WS6 is important as it was essentially a handling "Performance Package"

From 1977 or 1978 to 1983 or 1984 it was thicker sway bars, 15" rims/Tires, and Disc brakes, starting in 1985 and going through 1992 disc brakes were droped as part of the option and made into their own option, before this however the WS7 was the same as a WS6 but with rear drum brakes. It is essential to understand that the WS6 is as important as possibly the Z28 package for Camaros, its not some crappy little option that no one cares about.

Granted starting in 1993 or 1994 when became more of an all around performance package with a special hood, monor engine upgrades, suspension etc, and it became more of a buzz word than before..

--------------
1) The 91-92 Firehawk was an upgraded Formula, most of them were the 350 others were a 305 which was transplanted with a 350, or a 377, or a 383. 3 of them had an aluminum block, a few of them had aluminum hoods, and all of them had a 6 speed transmission.

The Firehawk was rated at 360 hp, which got the car down into the high 12's or low 13's and is comperable to the LS1 cars from 98-02. For about 2000 you can get comperable horsepower by using a Vortec TPI intake, Vortec heads and a good cam with your car, granted to get full potential from the engine you need to change the runners and install some good headers and exhaust. Basically everything should be under $3500... but you will need to re-program.

Keep in mind that the T-ram is no longer in production and to find one your going to spend around $2500 alone JUST for the intake, When you consider that for a LOT less you can get comperable power it does not make sence.

Also the Firehawk came with a 3.56 (IIRC) gear inside a DANA 44 axel, for the kind of money you would put into such an axel I would almost recommend getting a Ford 9" which are virtually bullet proof...

In the day the Firehawk was a rocken' hootin' tootin' machine, designed to compete with a the ZR1 Corvette, or a Ferrari, they cost between $39,995 and $50,000 NEW, and to be honest, you will be WAY ahead to buy #26 as it is up for sale, the going rate is around $25,000 to $30,000 for a REAL firehawk. for the amount of money you will put into a car to get no return its probably not worth it.

Good condition, reasonable miles 91-92 Formula 350 - $5000
T56 Transmission (6 speed) -$2500
Engine upgrades - $5000
Rear Axel - $2000
Wheels & Tires - $1500
Brakes - $2500
Other misc crap that you have to do as you work on it: $2000

And your at $20,500 for a car that would not fetch more than $10,000 to most people right now... I would spend the extra $4500 and get the real deal and not have to mess with it.

John

92frmlatpi

thanks for all the attention to this guys, and yes most of the firehawks were a modded l98, im trying to upgrade my formula, not necessarily just like they did, but just wanted the specs, as i know what times and ratings the car pulled with the l98 block...o-60 of low to mid 4's and qtrs of high twelves, and they were completely street legal, by modifying what they did, i could easily push upwards of 375/400 as i live in texas and do not live in an emissions required area. I realize that modding my formula is not an economically sound idea, but who actually builds a street or track car with the idea that they will "be making a good investment"? anything you plan to punish with that type of driving is not an investment, but adrenaline on wheels. THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO!!!! If anyone has any info on specific data on the engine, i.e. - manufacturer name and model or actual specs on the products used to mod that is what im looking for as i intend to essentially build an automatic version of the firehawk, more horsepower, better looking(i.m.h.o.). And for whoever posted the ws6 comment about it not meaning anything, yes it did, the suspension and braking components that were put into it were upgraded and in some cases completely different from non ws6's of that year, i still have the sticker for this one, and basically it was a decently equipped street racer, no gfx or extraneous trim, but all the basic power options everyone wanted including cd player etc. Have fun, drive fast, watch out for cops.
DRIVE IT LIKE YA STOLE IT!!!!

92RS(real slow)

Well I guess I was wrong about them not having L98's

jkicak

i agree with this 100% any time you put tons of $$ in to a car that is not rare you are going to lose the investment... but i don't think people are looking for a cash return.. the return they want/need is FUN.

1991Formula350

Great post John, very good facts! I offered 20k cash for 26, too many miles and knicks for anything above that. I was never replied to, thus again the Hawk community being snobs! It is a 3rd en and in today's world, these cars are not much worth. A few years ago 2 went dirt cheap on Barret Jackson Arizona, a let down when you see the bids for other makes. I really love these cars though, but stuff like this is a big turn off! Andy

okfoz

Andy,
WHen did you offer that amount? I know it has a new owner and he needs to unload it for a baby, I am not sure how badly he needs to sell it, but he just had it on e-bay about 2 or 3 weeks ago. I bought my vert off of him...

JOhn

1991Formula350

Hi John, yeah I know, I saw it, it was just under 25k on ebay, he said that was too low, I understand myself as I am trying to sell one of mine, but that car is not going anywhere for that amount. Andy

89Formula3

On Speed channels "American Musclecar" on one of there episode they had a small segemnt on the 91-92 Firehawks they went into engine mods and even drove a nice dark green 92 model a beauty it was, i know i have it stashed somewhere i'll try and dig it up.

okfoz

I think the dark green one is Bruce Hawkins...

sxchonto

Hey John, take the vert out when spring hits.

On firehawk engines, not too stir the pot but dont all firehawks have 4 bolt main blocks and isnt the l98 a 2 bolt main?

I contend that the NON aluminum block firehawks are still not using an L98.

Thoughts.

okfoz

Sam,
I am really not sure if the Hawk used the original engine or not. From what I remember, and memory escapes me I thought they replaced the entire drivetrain, Trans and Axel for sure, but for some reason I want to think that they also replaced the Engine. If I were a betting man I would suspect that it was to speed turn around as rebuilding an engine would take longer than having one on the shelf...

AS for the Vert, its been so nice around here lately I have really thought about getting it out, Unfortunately its in a corner on jack stands until Spring. I should have enough money to do a scuff and paint this spring too

John

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I think they used a 4 bolt block out of the corvette/heavy duty truck

((((Edit))))))) In my Hawk research I have come across some info and I believe SLP used ZZ2 or 3 crate shortblocks or even longblocks in the Hawks.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Here is the brochure.
http://www.transamws6.com/pics/slp-1.jpg

http://www.transamws6.com/pics/slp-2.jpg

http://www.transamws6.com/pics/slp-3.jpg

http://www.transamws6.com/pics/slp-4.jpg

formul8!!

Someday I will own a thirdgen firehawk....someday....

t_towner

Completely different drivetrains for the 92 Hawks.

Here's a link to the 92 Firehawk site.

http://www.92firehawk.com

The website is really rough but thought I would share. I'm working to add a bunch more information including pics of each specific car as well as a ton of scanned in documentation/articles, etc. Copies of any scanned in articles/info is greatly appreciated (and due credit will be given.)

ShowNGo92

The WS6 package started in 1978 and was standard on a 92 Formula, even with a 305. It will have the Performance Suspension badge on the dash. The 92 Firehawk was understated anyway. The only way to tell one apart from a regular Formula was to open the hood. The only badge identifying it as a Hawk was on the rear bumper. That and the rims which are available and are called Rondals. (I think, some name similar) So, with a Red Formula to start with, you don't have to do much to make a 92 Hawk clone. Good luck on the t-ram parts though. Maybe SLP sells them, I don't know.

rideon1200

Just for you Firehawk guys. One of them is owned by a guy here in Midlothian. Have seen it at Walmart. Funny, drive a car like that and shop at Walmart.

92RS(real slow)

if I had one I would drive it ever chance I got, I would just park far far away from walmart

t_towner

Are you down in Texas? By chance do you know the owners name or what number the car is? The number should be embroidered on the passenger side map pocket.

If you're in TX I believe it's car #10?

rideon1200

Midlothian, Virginia. From what I have read the guy ownes 2. Remember it because of name Firehawk. 31 and 32 maybe?

t_towner

Ok...he owns Cars #2 and #3.....

formul8!!

The guy who bought my old Formula owned Car #2. I was drooling all over it when I saw it. He is on this site somewhere.

I totally wish I would have been able to buy it...

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

T-RAM for sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB..._promot_widget

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

it's only half of it though.
missing the rails and the drivers side parts.

okfoz

I noticed that it is in Toms River NJ... I wonder if it is a survivor from the fire that destroied the molds.

John

formul8!!

Interesting find. I still think that is a terrible intake design, but cool for nostalgia's sake.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

A complete T-ram is big big $$$ last time I saw one, and it doesn't even flow that great if I remember right lol

okfoz

The T-ram was kind of ahead of its time, but it was backwards and thus why it has its own set of flow issues. Beyond these issues it was a step in the evolutionary process toward what they are using now.

If you look at the Oritginal TPI, it has the long runners which "Tune" the air as it passes through the runners and the base. It was discovered a long time ago that an equal length intake system is superior to an unequal length intake, much like the exhaust side with tuned headers. Chrysler had many tuned intake systems back in the 60's & 70's...

When the LT1 was designed and used in 1991 it was in some ways a step backwards in tuning Fuel Injection systems, but it worked well and they could force more air through so in effect it was like puting a larger carburator on the engine, but like many things they went with it because it was cheeper to produce than the TPI system, where the TPI has 4 components the LT1 has only 1.

Then LS1 was implemented and tuning was back. But this time there was a similarity to the TPI system and the long tube runners were back, but this time instead of a top-down system its over the top and back down into the chamber. The price advantage is similar to the LT1 because there is only one casting to be made.

There are a few advantages to this new LS design. If you look inside your typical TPI its painfully obvious by simply looking at it that the runners are necked down at the plenum and then open up as it meets the heads. The LS series however is more of a uniform size from the plenum to the heads, and they can get more air and therefore more fuel into the chamber. I would be VERY intereted to see if someone took a LS type intake and installed it onto a TPI car what kind of performance they could get from it. Take that and some good heads and I would imagine that it would be very similar to a LS series motor.

Back to the T-ram, if you look inside the T-ram you notice that the runners are a constant size LIKE the LS series intake, That is where the power was made, If SLP would have simply taken their design and made it the other way like the LS series many years later then they would have really dominated. As it was the T-ram did a great job, although it was not "perfect, it was a evolutionary step into the Tuned style intake on the SBC....

Mind you that Buick had virtually the exact type setup in 1991 on the 3800 engine which became popular on the LS engines, So the idea is not "new" it was just slow to be developed.

John

formul8!!

Great post, okfoz!!!

thebandit50187

Weird fact. The ZZ3 crate motor available at that was has the high nickel content block, forged crank, "pink" forged rods, and close to same Pistons as the Firehawk did. I've searched far and wide, yet the only info on the heads I can find is that they are aluminum, they have 2.00 intake valves, and 1.56 exhaust valves. No casting number, no intake runner cc's no exhaust runner cc's and no combustion chamber cc's. Makes me wonder if they aren't just 113 heads with enlarged valves?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yup, ported 113s with bigger valves.
8yr old thread... time sure is moving....

RockinGTA89

yup! don't you love history! I know i do! especially 3rd gen history!

thebandit50187

do you know if they are 175cc, 180cc, or 195cc. anything like that? i like old threads lol

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Just makes everyone aware that its not a "current" thread.

I don't know for sure what cc the intake runners are. I have a guess but can't say that it would be 100% correct.

thebandit50187

my best educated guess would be probably to the tune of 180cc on the intake side.

i just compared the firehawk's engine to a LT4 (330hp) probably after SLP's blue printing it was more like 350hp.

it came with a smaller cam and had exhaust manifolds but did have 195 cc intake runners so bigger cam plus headers = smaller intake runners?? sounds good to me.

but its just a guess

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Well, the hawks used a supposedly ported set of 113s, the ZZ4 heads (or was it the fast burns?) are based off of ported 113s sooo, I'd think that would be close to your answer.

thebandit50187

see i have a ZZ crate motor and the 113's are the same as the corvette casting just with better valve springs.

thebandit50187

i think someone made up that rumor to make people think the ZZ heads were superior. they are the exact same head as the production Corvette head. the ZZ4's did get LT4 valve springs so those were able to take .530" lift @ the valve. the ZZ3's and Corvette's valve springs are only good to .510" lift @ the valve. the ZZ3 and ZZ4 camshaft is the same, 208*/221* @0.050 lift and .474"/.510" of lift.

there isnt much difference between the Corvette L98, ZZ3 and ZZ4.

When i bought my ZZ3 i research all this stuff so heavily it'd make some people go insane lol so if you wanna know all the differences i can tell you but ill spare you if you dont really care lol

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yep, they are pretty much the same. I'm fairly sure the ZZ motors got the upgraded cyl head parts b4 the production cars did. (Doubt it was any significant time tho) Like, same valvespring seat height, spring upgrades and even the exhaust port change for the 88. (128s to 113 heads)
Time marches on to todays ZZ5 350 with fastburn heads and 400 hp..

thebandit50187

yep the ZZ5 does have fastburns. and fastburn heads are more like vortec heads then they are like L98's

okfoz

Will the ZZ5 take TPI, or would I have to get the Scroggin DIcky Vortec Manifold?

---

Apparently the ZZ5 is a complete turn-key engine, so I suspect I would have to change cam to get the benefits of TPI...