Just wanted to get some opinions on an idea that I had after attending the '07 Nats.

I noticed that all the generations have multiple classes throughout the generation for stock and for modified. All except ThirdGens that is.

The 1st cars have 1 stock class for 3 years
The 2nd cars have 3 stock classes for 11 years
The 4th cars have 2 over 9 years

But 3rd Gens have one stock class for 10 years!
What about the idea of splitting class D into a 1982-1986 and a 1987-1992 Class?
What are some opinions on this, is there a better year breakdown? I will email Sue Emmel and see if she may be down for this, just wanted to get some opinions here.
Thanks
Mark

 

Mark, I very much agree with you on this idea.... plus, from my experience, a little more parity in judging would help immensely as well. Perhaps they will be receptive to a change....

 

Thanks Frankie, does 82-86 and 87-92 sound like a good split to you?

 

That looks like an excellent idea.... that would keep the earlier "special" cars separate from the 20th T/As and the lower production later 3rdGen cars.

Sounds like a plan to me.

 

Might I offer a further split of '82-'84 then '85-'89 and '90-92.Then they would be separate classes that have common points in each split.

 

That is another good idea. Thanks.

Mark

 

Yeah, I think coolram62 is right on the money. In 85 there were a lot of improvements and upgrades such as engines and interiors. Then from 90 to 92 there weren't many changes as GM was getting ready for the 4th gens.

But would you want to make that 91 to 92? And then make it 85 to 90? I know that 91 and 92s are almost identical.

I'm not that familiar with the later models. Would the 90s be closer to the 89s in construction or what they be closer to the 91s? I know the 1990 Firebirds have the same nose as the 89s, but not sure about the rest.

 

I was thinking '90-'92 group because of the interior change in '90.The '85-'89 share interiors and for the most part drivetrain combinations as Wildjeff points out.A sticking point,to me,would be judging the TTA along with the other '85-'89

 

If they are willing to split two ways I think 82-84 and 85-92, if they will split three ways then I think 82-84, 85-90, and 91-92. The 85-90 cars represent the first facelift of the T/A and the introduction of the TPI. The 91-92 cars introduced too many new things to put the 90 cars in with them in my opinion. The only major difference the 1990 cars have is the newer interior with air bag, compared to 1991-92 and the huge differences in body panels, improvements in build quality, new dealer offered SLP performance packages show up, and factory convertibles return. Just my

 

While I like the idea of a splitting classes, I do not think there are enough stock thirdgens to warrent breaking the classes up.

For example, there was 1 TTA entered in stock thirdgen this year...There were only three of four 82-84's...

Compare the number of stock thirdgens vs. the numbers of stock 2nd and 4th gens (which have broken classes)...

The stock thirdgen class is always hit or miss as far as attendance, while the 2nd gens and 4th gens usually have a much larger turnout.

I think the decision to divide the class should be made on how many cars are registered. I know they have had trouble in Dayton with making new classes, then having no cars show up.

 

I agree with TAdan, the numbers are not there to really split the classes.

You could rationalize split the class in many different ways. Personally I think the 82-84, 85-90 and 91-92 would make the most sence because of the cosmetic differences. But I would think we would need more participation from Thirdgenners to really make it happen. Class K (Light custom) almost always has 3 cars and never more than 5 for example. If you broke that class apart then your looking to potentially have one car per class.

John

 

Thats usually when a class split happens, when there are too many cars. Thats usually how the year is decided too, but not always of course.

I agree 85 there were some rather significant changes made to both the Camaro and Firebird... (even though we're talking TA here) but that leaves it kind of lopsided as far as numbers in class is concerned. If there were a lot of 82-84 cars that would probably make the most sense but 82-86 and 87-92 would likely split the cars in class in half or close.

85- major changes, exterior, interior, drivetrain
87- 350 and Formy and GTA added.
90- lost the MAF and added an airbag
91- major exterior changes

 

Well I just got an email back from Sue and she said that they won't split class D because there are not enough cars in it. It is definitely true that TA Nats is basically 2nd Gen Nats and 4th Gen Nats. Not that many 1st cars and not that many 3rd cars.

So that is what it is I guess, unless we can make a really convincing argument for it or just get more cars to come.

 

I see their side of the issue as well. Guess we'll just have to increase the 3rdGen turnout until they have enough complaints to break the class down into sections.

 

REally the 82-84 cars are almost non-existant at the Nationals...

John

 

I'll be honest...I've been to shows and haven't brought my car because getting 1st place with no competition is a waste. A few times, I have gone to get my car thinking that finally there's competition and find out that they fell into a different year category. Last year at the Orlando WinterNationals, a low mileage stock 85 IROC-Z shows up. It was clean and original. I went home to get my car. They ended up breaking the thirdgens into multiple year classes where the 85 and my 87 weren't competing. Neither of us was happy as we took 1st place in our groups with no other competition. I personally would like to earn my awards, not get one just for showing up.

I also got a 1st place last year that is my favorite trophy. The class was 82-92 F-Body at the NPD GM Nationals in Ocala. There was no special classes, it was just 1st place for all 3rd gen fbodies. That was a trophy I earned!

 

Yeah but the ones that show up win!! 1st and 2nd this year. I was surprised that the TTA actually squeezed in and got 3rd.

 

And one of those 82-84's shouldnt have even been classed as stock... I intend to volunteer for the tech line next year.
----------

Scott, how is your Camaro usually judged at Camaro shows? (Popular vote, actual judge/ points?) Just curious. Judging at the Pontiac/ Firebird shows seems to be really hit or miss.

 

I had my 83 there in 2004, and was shocked at how I was disrespected in the tech line, and then being put on the back lot, out of sight of the main part of the event, I felt we were part of the undesirables.
I swear, I will NEVER bring my 3rd gen back out to the Nats!!

My experience back in 1994 with my 1979 T/A was completely different.
I actually was made to feel welcome, back then.
I personally think the people in charge out there are very bias as to what they want in their show, and they aren't afraid to show it!

It's like we all know here, that the 3rd gen is the one that doesn't get the respect they deserve, and this "National" event proves that in flying colors.
No wonder, that so few ever make it out there.
I will NOT go out of my way to make this a date on my calender again, and instead, I'll find a more friendly event to spend my time and money on.

Rant Off!
Sorry Guys!

Leon

 

Leon,
In 2004 that was the only year to my recolection that I too was put in the back lot. I remember it well...

Were you in my class??? I think you were parked next to me and the only reason why you did not win that year was you had so much luggage in your car... Personally I thought you had the better car that year, but they could not inspect your car as closely as mine.

Edit: Also IIRC that was the crappiest year for trophies... All other years were these huge things that were 3 feet tall... in 2004 they were 18" tall and had a oil filter screwed to the top.

JOhn

 

Yes John, that was me.
I remember it all too well, myself,LOL!!
Don't sell yourself short buddy, because your interior was 10 time better than mine was, and you desearved the win!
As far as the luggage goes, it was all kept in the back with the hatch closed and the shade pulled, so I don't see how that would have counted against me, but then again, without fedback, either positive or negitive, hows a guy know where to improve, ya know?
It was a very frustrating trip for me, and I was glad to get back on the road for home.

Leon

 

Thats exactly why, they could not inspect the luggage compartment to compare to the other cars in the class.

Although I have a fancy interior yours was clean, IIRC it was pretty nice, I think I might have gotten you a few points on the interior, but ultimately I think your paint was better, and your Engine bay was cleaner.

THe other guy that parked 5 spaces away had several issues that I will not go into.

I know for a fact that unless its raining and they say you can, or everyone else did it. Stuff in the interior such as things in the rear compartment is a nono and will automatically deduct from the overal points...

JOhn

 

Leon, your rant rings pretty true with me.... no need to be worried about it. You made some valid points, and they are ones I've experienced as well during my trips to Dayton. That car looks pretty darn nice to me in those photos. If they love anything in Dayton, it's a lovely paint job. That will gloss a lot of other stuff for them.... like the undercarriage. The last time I was there, they didn't even look at that part.

John's right though.... interior judging is a big part of the overall score, too, and if the hatch isn't open your score will really suffer.

That show is a good one to attend, but not to plan on competing in. If you're going, just go for the fun of seeing all those cars in one place. Just my opinion, of course.

 

Thanks John, and I have to tell you, I have learned more from you just now, about how things work there, than I ever got from the people in charge.
I had NO idea about the rear area needing to be open for inspection.
I admit I'm not a regular at this show, but how does a guy compete fairly, when the "rules" seem to be so hard to come by?
They need to make such matters very clear, to avoid pissing off people like me.
I invested quite a bit of time and labor to make the trip, and to go away feeling like I did, they should be ashamed of themselves.
And don't misunderstand me, it's not about a silly trophy, but more so, being left to feel like you are not a part of the event.
I have a much better feeling about the Tipp City event, the night before, where I got to meet Dan (TaDan) and his dad.

About the judging, John, are you able to be around your car when they are looking at it?
How "touchy" are they about this?
Is there some way of gaining the "inside" info, to be ready for the judges, or do they change it around, year to year, to keep people off balance?

If I can start to feel better about this show, I might consider making the trip again, but the next time I would bring my kids along with thier cars as well, (87 GTA, and 83 DT500 Pace Car)

Thanks again John!

Leon

 

Thanks Frank!

I DO enjoy the event for the mass amount of Firebirds there, but my frustration stems from the not being played on an equal playing field.

The one thing I do have respect for, is the fact that it is judged.
The smaller shows I go to are mostly "participation" vote, and if a clubs membership has a strong showing, then the "buddies" vote for each other, instead of the more deserving car.

But still, they need to open their hearts and minds to the 3rd gens, in Dayton, if they ever expect to have that group grow in numbers.

Leon

 

I completely agree. It is so much fun I'll be heading back in 08. You just cant argue with 500 Firebirds in one spot.

I think all of Leons concerns are valid.

 

No problem...
I think they give everyone a piece of paper in the judging packet describing what the judges are looking for. I think thats all in there... At least It was in there this past year...
I like the Dayton show better, I like Tipp City but the way that it happens is impossible to actually do anything than just show your car, personally I would prefer that Tipp City not give out awards, as it is impossible to put a show on for 4 hours and give out honest awards and look at all the cars objectively.
They tell you not to talk to the judges UNLESS they talk to you first.

 

I'm not John.... but I'll post here anyway. Keep in mind that neither of my GTAs are good enough to ever win anything there, so these are not the opinions of some ranting participant who feels slighted.

It has been my experience at Dayton on more than one occasion to see competing car owners pointing out incorrect details on similar cars to judges while they were "judging" the cars.... and then showing the judge the correct part, etc. on their own car. That's a HUGE conflict of interest, IMO.

Don't think for a moment that the Dayton show doesn't suffer from the "buddy" movement.... it most certainly does. As you noted, the playing field is not level. But a lot of that might stem from a lack of parity in classing the cars. I angered them one year for questioning the placement of my Notchback in the Light Modified class because of the decklid. Even the window sticker would not deter the guy; only being called off by another tech line staffer pacified the guy.... who immediately put me in the LM class anyway because my car had chrome valve stems on it.

From the outside looking in, it's all hearts and flowers.... but that kind of petty crap is what ruins the Dayton show.

 

That goes on everywhere. Class judges allow and disallow cars based on their opinion and the biased opinions of others in classes just so they can compete unfairly. There's a local guy who doesnt show up much anymore because he spends too much time ranting about other cars in his class and apparently people have caught on to his game... so he doesnt place well or at all and not getting a first place has chased him off. Good riddance I say.

 

I thank you, sir, for your thoughts.
I couldn't agree more!
Just getting through the tech line was just about enough for me.
When looking it over, this older guys commented to one of the other techs, that the color was wrong, inside the spokes of my wheels.
I'm not sure if he meant to have me here that or not, but I did, and called him on it.
I told him that I had repainted them, and know what the original color looked like, and had varified it through PPGs color books, but he still insisted by saying he has the same wheels on his car, and they were not the same.
Regardless, they were the wrong wheels for the year of car, so I saw no need to get that nit-picky of something like that.
That moment got me wound up, and a young lady, also working with the techs, tried to calm things down by saying she liked the blend of years I had incorperated into my car.
Now why couldn't they just show some appreciation like that, to begin with, instead of looking down their noses, just because a car isn't a 100% OEM.
They also bitched that the mirrors and rear spoiler were body color, instead of being a semi-gloss black, as per 1983s........SO WHAT! I say.
Attitudes and personal opinions in the tech line should reflect the effort and quality put into a car, instead of weighing it against a totally stock car.

Maybe they need some new blood working the tech line along with the others getting off their high horse, and welcome yon weary travalers with open arms, instead of an iron fist! LOL Whatever that means! LOL!

Leon

 

Leon I fully intend to volunteer to tech next year.

 

Boy, I hear you TAdan.... I'm planning to be there with Lou Wassel and I may volunteer to tech as well. Only for GTAs of course.... any other Firebirds need not apply! LOL

Seriously, they really need to either get things on the same page up there.... the event definitely suffers because of stuff like this.

 

I have to admit that the tech line is by far one of the most ignorant places. I am amazed by some of the questions, like the Leon incident with the Wheels, I was asked if my interior was original I took it as a HUGE complement, but Whatever..

The biggest gripe I have with the teching thing is you can go through 3 time sand I bet you would probably be classed differently every time if you got different people. ITs like Frankies Chrome valve stems, is that one change or Four changes. If you change your wheels is that one or four changes. There is no consistancy, not that there is much anyone can do but do EVERY car.

Personally I think they should take the classes, Everytihign above Dead Stock give them a number of modifications, and have them park accordingly, From least to most, once they have all the entrants they arrange the classes equally, so that Class K does not have 3 cars and class MM has 20 cars.

Ok before someoene pushes me off my box...

 

Well put, John. There is no parity whatsoever, and there has to be for the Nationals to be considered as an "elite" event. The valve stem deal especially burned me after the guy told me that I would "need to address those valve stems before next year if I wanted to be in the stock class" after I refused to leave the show field to go and have them replaced just to please him, and then I proceeded to watch a 1992 "GTA" Convertible tech'ed by this same guy drive right into the D Class area and park.

Don't try to drill me for something petty like that because you don't know what you're looking at, and then allow a car that wasn't even produced go into a stock class.

But something has to give up there, IMO. I'll get off my box now as well.

 

You are just the type of an enthusiast they need, Dan.
Someone who's level headed enough to know what he's looking at, and knows what to do with it.
Good luck!

Leon

 

Can we keep this 3rd gen History/Restoration guys? OK, I'm just kidding. Good info on judging. I'm glad to see it happens at other events too and not just the ones I've been to. Actually, I'm not not glad to that it happens at all...


The majority of the shows I have gone to are points judged. From time to time, I go to participant shows or popular vote shows, but not much anymore. The show scene in FL is much different than when I lived in Minneapolis. The problem with most judged shows, is the judges don't know what they are actually looking for. I have been docked points because I didn't have a complete interior...the hush panels were missing. Well, it's been determined that my car never came with them. I've been docked for items one year at a show, but not the next year and the issue is still there. I also find that shows like the Eckler's shows that I've been to use a 3 judge system. The problem is that all 3 judges walk around together and pretty much dock for the same things and for the same points. I will not be showing my car at the WinterNationals this year so that I can judge the 3rd gen classes.

One thing that I found that works well is to triage the cars. I locate all the cars I'm judging first and do an initial assessment of the cars. This way I know which car is the worst one and which is the best. I start with the best car, dock for any necessary items and use that car as the baseline for the rest. Other judges judge the first car they find and dock whatever they think is fair. The last car they find might be the best car and isn't judged equally to the lesser qualified cars. He might get docked points because dust landed on the dash and the worst car might have just been wiped down and has dust in every nook and cranny. I've seen the best car get docked harder than the worst car because the judges had to look harder for deductions.

I'm happy with my 996/1000 points. I do believe though that the score is skewed. If I judged my car based on a 1000 point scale, it should fall somewhere in the low 900 range. Put it into perspective that 900/1000 is a 9 out of 10 or 90/100. Can you really get any better than that with a car that gets driven to shows and isn't a museum queen. Points judging is so far off that it's almost pathetic. I have seen some absolutely gorgeous cars that were worthy of the upper 900 range and they were daily drivers at these shows. Almost makes me feel guilty to get the scores I got.

 

I belong to a Chevelle club and we have judged a few car shows. We usually have experts on the 64-65 66-67 68-69 70-72. When I say experts these guys know for sure about body bolt head markings and stuff like that.

We have separated guys that want to have their cars points judged. Which works out pretty nicely.

The rest of the show field is either modified or stock. Stock is allowed 3 or 4 changes to major parts of the car or you go to modified. You know that going in if your car has 4 minor changes you might be going up against somebody that is modified to the hilt.

A change could be the wheels, non-stock color or paint schemes for the year of car, interior changes, non-stock chrome items, incorrect decals that sort of stuff. Don't get into the right bolts, date codes, casting numbers and such. That is for the points judged cars.

Everyone should feel lucky that we even have an event such as this. I am sure if they get enough complaints they have to change the way they classify the cars. If the show officials don't get enough complaints and they just keep getting the money and cars coming in they feel everything is fine and don't change anything.

 

After following this post I think it may be a good idea to inform Sue about it. It seems that we have all ran into the same issues at the Nats and these issues need to be addressed. I enjoy the show and the whole weekend very much, but I hate dragging the car all the way out there if the show is not going to be fair.

So who agrees with me? Should I send a link to Sue? Maybe a moderator wants to do that?

Mark

 

To the top????

 

Frankie,
One of the issues that your confronted by is that the 1992 GTA convertible although not technically a real car, at the TA nats the car goes unnoticed because anything that was an option on any Firebird for that year are ignored. Although the car is not correct by some standards they have decided that a base firebird with leather articulating seats is acceptable, or a Base firebird with a TPI engine (from the same year) is also acceptable and not considered a change.

In the case of the GTA vert the only thing that was wrong would be the decals But they were available in 1992 on the GTA, so its one of those pesky gray areas. I think what this does is help level out the number of cars in each class, if they went through and made the "stock" class purely stock where the car would have to be exactly as it rolled off the line then I doubt anyone would be in the class. An original Battery would be a hard score, as would the original Tires from that year. Although not impossible. Then you have to get under the car to see that the Oil Filter was not painted engine color as it would have been when new. I know for a fact that there is no 100% original car out there... Add to that that most people may or may not know what options were available on each year for our cars.


John

 

John, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. There's been enough discussion on it already.

 

Frankie,
I am not agreeing with anyone, I hope I did not twist your tail, it was not my intent. Rather I was trying to state that the TA nats have some unusual rules for classes that wether or not I agree with them is not important. There are definately some consistancy issues, for example y car was placed in Heavy custom my first year, the second year I put aftermarket wheels on it and then I was only light custom... It makes no sence to me but its the way it was. Your car I have not seen but I think the valve stems seem t o be a petty thing to be considering more of a change than a 92 GTA convertible... In that regard I do agree with you, unfortuantely the TA nats doesn't...

John

 

Indeed, John, the same point I was alluding to by posting about there being enough discussion on the point. I'm certainly not offended.

We can't change their rules or procedures on classing and qualifications, so it's best to just go to the event and try to have a good time. When you approach it from that point of view, it's a great show. Either that.... or just stay at home.