Hello all, first post here, couldn't find the exact forum to fit the question, so went with History:

I'm finally in a position to acquire a third gen Camaro, something I've wanted to do forever.

My plan is to learn all I can about third gens, after which I'll try and find one that's right for me. I'm particulary fond of the stock RS models, I really like the basic look.

Anyway, just wondered if you all could provide some links and pointers re: how I might proceed in my research. I'd love to know if there are specific model years I should steer clear of and if there are any other deal breakers on specific engines right out of the box so I can refine my research as much as possible out of the gate.

Thanks in advance for any assistance, looking forward to learning.

Cheers

 

I'm guessing you're referring to the 1991-92 RS body kit, which was standard on all Camaro models from that year. Not a whole lot of difference between the 1991 and 1992 models -- I want to say that they 1992 models boasted some sort of "increased rigidity" from a different body adhesive, but I may be confusing myself with Corvette trivia. Also, there are different t-top seals for some 1991s and 1992s. Other than that, there's little difference between the two model years. However, you will probably find a lot more 1991s for sale as I believe that 1992 was a low production year.

As far as models to avoid, I can't think of any options or engines that have proved to be particularly troublesome. If it were me, I would look for a TPI car as they're always going to be worth more and much more desirable. Of course, that would mean that you would have to get a Z28. If you don't care at all about performance or image, the 6 cylinders can be had cheap. Nonetheless, you can still get the TBI 5.0 V8 in the RS if you must have an RS model, and that would be the engine I'd recommend.

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I can see at the outset that pigeonholing myself with an RS-only mentality is probably a bad thing. Ultimately I prefer the third gens that are not too flashy, and I can't argue with your points on TPI.

I'll make sure to go into the research with an open mind.

 

No you are correct. 1992 cars used a different body sealer on all the seems which added to chassis rigidity and strength. Though this is hard to quantify. I think 1992 cars still need SFC's and other parts to improve rigidity anyway. Of course the newest of these cars is 18 years old so that body sealer may not count for anything now.

 

Also, I'd like to ask if there are any recommendations for specific books/shop manuals that are considered superior in helping me to get to know these cars inside and out.

Thanks!

 

Yeah TPI cars are flat out better performers in stock form but like all things TPI has its downsides too. Many people scream "GO CARB" around here but there are tons of very happy users of TPI that have seriously powerful and mean setups out there. Once you get over the fear of having to program it, I think TPI is the way to go with these cars. One piece of advice to the OP, know what you want before you go searching for a car and do not settle for less than what you want. Some things you can add relatively easily, but other things like T-Tops are pretty tough to do after the fact.

 

I've owned close to a dozen thirdgens, ranging from 83-91. I've owned both Camaros and Firebirds, 6cyls and 350 TPI cars. Here's my honest opinion on what I look for. Whenever possible I recommend 89-92 cars, with emphasis on 90-92. The quality peaked somewhere in that general time span. 89 is the best MAF TPI setup, 90-92 are speed density, both are incredibly improved over the 85 setup. Even comparing a 1987 350 TPI car to a 1992 350 TPI with all the equipment being the same, the 92's run better and perform better. There are some features of the 90-up cars that break from the 82-89 traditions, like the air bags, and dash changes made to permit the air bag addition. Then there's the updated body parts which some people don't like. Ultimately, those features grow on most people over time.

Next up, I recommend a V8 if you want a V8. Converting V6's is possible, but it involves replacing so many parts it's not cost effective. Also V8 cars generally came with upgraded parts all through the car. You get more car when you buy a V8 car to start with. On that same note, I recommend buying the nicest car you can afford rather then buying cheap and trying to upgrade. Good parts are getting really hard to find for these cars. It's not like it used to be where you could find anything in a large junkyard. As an extension, the more equipped the car is, usually the better. If you care about performance, a TBI car, or even a 305 TPI automatic car isn't going to keep you happy very long.

Putting all that to practice, pick the body style you like. Then go with the latest car that has that body style. Decide if you want performance from a basically stock drivetrain or if you want to modify everything or use a non stock drivetrain, and buy the car that closest fits what you want.

For year to year differences, check out the Technical Database on the main page.

 

Buy a GM shop manual specific to your year.

JamesC

 

Agreed. To add to that I'd say that its best to get the body style and possibly even the color you want. While most of these things need a repaint anyway you'll get a better looking paint job by matching the color of the original paint job. If you plan on changing it you need to strip the car down to the body and wheels to really do it right. Nothing bothers me more than seeing different color paint in the door jams or even under the carpet. While you don't see all this a whole lot, I guess my attention to detail makes it stand out a lot to me. So if you want to make the car nice, but don't want to go through that effort, matching the stock color of the car you want will probably produce the cheapest and best looking results. Also I'd advise getting the trim level and body style you want. If you buy a Formula and then want to turn it into a Trans Am or GTA, then you'll be searching for parts which are hard to find in decent shape and then you've got to drill the holes to mount the stuff. Conversely you have to weld up the holes and repaint the car if you want to turn a Trans Am or GTA into a Formula. The same is true of the Camaro as well.

Other things like Digital dash swaps, automatic transmission to manual transmission swaps etc. are a pretty big pain. Then you have other things that could be hidden costs as well that you may not realize until later on. Drum to disk brake conversions etc. If you at least have a 1990 or newer car, you'll have 28 spline axles, and basically with upgraded brakes and gears you'll have the same 10-bolt that's in the 4th generation cars. Or you can swap a fourth generation rear over cheaply, but then you do have the E-brake cable issue to consider as well. Though none of that is insurmountable regardless of the car it should be considered. So again you can save yourself some issues with planning about what you want in the beginning before you buy your car.

How much power you want to put down and whether or not you want to go with EFI should factor in as well. In order to swap between TBI and TPI you'd need to do a lot of work I'd imagine. The harnesses are different. So it would probably be a good idea to go with what you want, TPI or TBI. If you want to go with a carb based engine in your swap then an LG4 car might be just the ticket to save yourself a lot of wiring hassles.

 

I got a book a while ago called "Camaro White Book" 1967-1993.
it has quite a bit of information on options, how many, different changes througout the years and stuff.

 

Drew and 87Wsc have pretty much hit it on the head. Just remember that 10 years ago you could find tons of cars in the junk yard and you could basically make your own thirdgen. Now when you go to the jyard you are lucky to find one thirdgen over a one month period.And that one is usually picked bone dry with no usuable parts. In other words used parts are hard to get so buy a car that has what you want already.

Do your homework and try to avoid going cheap because once you get your car you will want upgrades that could be had "before" you bought the cheap car by spending a little bit more money. $3,000-$5,000 can buy you today a real nice thirdgen. I don't think that will be the case in 2-5 more years.

 

Unless you have many thousands of dollars to put into the initial purchase price, you really don't get very much choice in what you end up with. If you wait too long, you'll end up with something else. And worse, when the economy recovers, noone will be desperate to sell, so pickings will get slimmer and prices will double and triple.
Not that it truly matters what you start with, the basic chassis is the same for all of them. The highest priority of all should be a good interior. Everything else is easier to remedy, even if you have to buy a second car to do so.
If you do have many thousands of dollars, then get a '95 'vette w/ ZF and the optional big brakes, or an '01-'02 Trans Am with the T56.

 

I don't think I can agree with a single thing you just said. First of all, it's always been cheaper to buy a car that's already done then it is to try to piece one together. $5,000 can buy a REALLY nice thirdgen if you're willing to search. Next, the people that are desperate to sell now due to the economy, will still be desperate to sell later, and the chances are the car they're selling isn't something most people would want anyway. Prices aren't going to go up anytime soon, at least not for the average thirdgen. Interior is the highest priority? Interior is probably the easiest part of these cars to fix. It's not cheap, but compared to body work, or rebuilding a small block or a 700R4, it seems that way. I'd rate body and paint as the single most important factor, followed by drivetrain, and finally interior. If you've got money, buy what you want.

 

$5000 can buy a really nice LS1 powered 4th gen, too. Better suspension, better brakes, better seats, better front suspension, lets face it, third gens have only 1 thing going for them: they're cheap. That's the whole point. These cars have not one redeeming virtue other than cheapness compared to the '98-'02 LS1 versions. They don't look as good, they don't perform as good, they don't drive as good, they don't corner as good. they don't have traction control or anti lock brakes.

 

I disagree. Third gens handle just as well as any fourth gen. They use many of the same suspension components. The fourth gen weighs more and despite its SLP upgrades my Firehawk had just as much body roll during cornering if not more than a third gen for it. Looks are subjective. To me a clean third gen looks better than most fourth gens do. As for the seats the fourth gen seats are the same as the Ultimas in the GTA with a different head rest. Try again. Like third gens, you have to spend upwards of $9,000 to get mint cars. The ones you see for $5,000 are OK, but still are far from perfect. It is getting harder and harder to find either of these cars in good shape. You are right about the traction control and anti-lock brakes. Fourth gens do have those and a few more advantages over third gens. They are also 10 years newer in terms of design. That is to be expected.

 

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but I think the majority of people here would disagree. I don't know about "really nice LS1 powered 4th gens" selling for $5000. Sure you can get into one, but I don't know how "really nice" it would be.

Exactly which part of the suspension do you think is better? Rack and pinion steering? The revised front control arm? The weak link of both cars is the live rear axle. Everything from the torque arm back is identical. At the end of the day the differences are minor.

Better brakes? It's a heavier car, with more power, bigger wheels, etc. Safety and performance standards have changed. The LS1 NEEDS better brakes.

Better seats? The seats in the LS1 Camaros are slightly reworked versions of the exact same seats in the 1982 Sport Coupe Camaro. The 82 Z28 had better seats. The LS seats, and optional Recaros blow any 4th gen seats out of the water. The 4th gen Firebirds use the Ultima seats that were standard on the 1987 GTA, except they removed a third of the adjustments.

Better front suspension? Didn't we already cover this?

Until you said they don't have traction control or anti lock brakes, I thought you were talking about the 4th gen. I think most people polled would agree the thirdgen cars look better. At least for their time they were a lot more popular then the slightly cosmetically changed 4th gens. I've yet to see a thirdgen photoshopped into a catfish.



Performance is relative. In stock form, where it matters for most people (driving around town), an 89-92 L98 in proper tune with good tires can usually put enough car lengths on an LS1 at a stop light to be ahead when it hits the speed limit. At street speeds, both cars handle and drive the same. On a rough road they'll both be punishing. As far as anti-locks and traction control, I've been driving since I was 14, my first car was a 82 Ford station wagon, I learned how to drive without all that crap and it'd just be in my way.

If you honestly feel that the only value of the thirdgen is the low price, maybe you should get a better job and buy something you like?

 

I have the resources to pick up a new 'vette. But they suck major ****. the ZR1 could be fun, but is beyond my means. You spend all your disposable income on your car if you want. I'm not going to. In the end it's just a hobby and transportation, not a healthy way of life.

 

Good interior parts are hardest to find, and are not being reproduced. Rust or collision damage is a re-shell away. Engine? ALL the stock engines sucked and need a performance rebuild, especially if it's not a 350.
You can swap in a TR3650 for under $1000, and these cars need that, too.
But decent interior parts are the rarest parts of all.

 

Which interior parts are hard to find exactly? I've got about 4 complete sets of interior panels in my garage. Seats? No, you can't be talking about seats since there are reproduction covers that fix 90% of the problems. Carpet? No, they sell reproduction carpet too. Headliners? You can see where I'm going with this right? As soon as there is really a demand the aftermarket will start reproducing parts, but as is now most interior parts can still be found in junkyards. It requires ZERO skill to completely restore the interior. Even if you have to hire it out, it's cheap.

Oh yeah, re-shelling a car is a cake walk... Unbolt every single part and bolt them on some other shell, assuming you can find one that's rust free, not smashed up, that has a clear VIN, title, and is rough enough to be a shell donor. Unless you mean just bolting on new panels, which isn't really a proper 'fix' on a unibody car. No, unless you have specialized tools and skills, a once wrecked thirdgen is scrap. Body work is expensive.

Drivetrains are what they are. Machine work isn't that expensive, and there are a ton of options out there. But it still requires more money, equipment, tools, and skill then interior work.

It doesn't matter what you start with. It'll cost more money to change what's there then just buying a car that's already what you want. If you want TPI, buy a TPI car, if you want a V8 buy a V8. If you start with a V6 or a lesser V8 car and you want to build it into something better, it'll cost more money in the long run. That's before you even start to consider that in general the higher end cars had better equipment all around. For the cost of building a clone, you can own the real thing.

 

Damn Drew, I never wronged you, why the beef against me? You have every right to see things your way, and to type what you think, but you're just a dumb young rich kid who doesn't yet believe in the value of experience, and when you finally wake up to reality, you'll remember that you were told. I just hope you'll man up and publicly admit you were wrong, and apologize to everybody you convinced to take your side.

 

What gives you the impression that I have a beef against you? I take issue when people say things that don't make sense. Anyone, and I mean anyone can go and pull the entire interior out of a thirdgen, and replace it with parts from a donor car or any number of vendors, in about an afternoon, with very basic hand tools. I should know, I've done a few interior swaps, and I've 'restored' several others, all on a minuscule budget. The fact that you have to turn to personal attacks ("dumb young rich kid") just shows that you can't support your argument. You don't know jack about me. You talk about me being dumb, young, rich, when I'm older then the majority of users here, and I work on an almost nonexistent budget. You talk about experience when I've been on this forum for nearly 15 years. I've contributed to this site, I've moderated for this site, you can disagree with me all you want, but you'd have to search long and hard to find anyone with more experience on the topic at hand.

If you feel like I'm calling you a fool, it's because you're making foolish statements that you can't back up. I don't owe you or anyone an apology for anything. You owe me an apology for letting a debate get you to the point where you're calling names.

 

My advice?

If you dont want to mess with it too much, get what you want.

If you want to hang with 4th gens at the drag strip, and you want to put a stout engine and a manual trans in the car... you're gonna need a 4th gen T56 and prob a 4th gen motor. You can build a Gen I block to make power but it's a crapshoot as to whether it's cheaper to do that or to do the conversion work if you get a cheap LS engine.

If a 245hp L98 isnt really fast enough for you and you're gonna rebuild/upgrade the motor/transmission, then I woudlnt worry too much about getting a TPI car specifically.

The IROC/Z28's tend to have the posi rears and disc brakes and big sway bars and good shocks and so forth, but most of those shocks are trash by now anyway.


So I guess what Im trying to say, is dont pay extra for good stock parts when you're going to want to upgrade them anyway. If the engine is just a placeholder for an LS1 one day dont get too hung up on getting a TPI car.

 

i cant say what is the best way to go. but what i did was hunt the interweb car sales until i found a thirdgen in the year i wanted a color i was willing to live with an engine i wanted and an interior and exterior that had no major issues and had not been messed with by a modder or someone's kid with a fascination for ***** hoods.

im no resto expert by any stretch and decided to get as close to pristine as i could then sink my money and time into things that were doable for me. for me replacing interior parts wasnt too hard. some interior parts are still in stock by some gm warehouses.

my goal was and is to get my thirdgen 100% as it came from the factory. i think you need to decide first what you intend to do with it and what your goal is.

 

If I have any advice, it would be to familiarize yourself with RPO's for a particular year that you are about to look at. At least you will know if the seller is fibbing about the car or not. Take a digi pic of the RPO sticker (on 91-92 non verts they are on the rear driver side, inside the storage compartment lid) or maybe printout a list of RPO's from that year. You may find a car that the owner doesnt know a lot about. I bought a 91 RS...turned out to be a B4C...1 OF 592! Doing your homework and knowing what to look for is the best advice I can think of...good luck

 

Drew claims I can't stand having my opinion scrutinized, and therein lies the problem. I wasn't presenting opinion, I was giving everyone the real facts of the matter, and all the arguing in the world won't change them. He's got a few sets of nice interior pieces, great. Probably paid a fortune for them, but showroom quality stuff really is getting scarce.
I've been driving these cars since the first ones rolled out for '82, but I don't contribute much in this sub-forum because of the poor behavior of a few people who are a little too full of themselves. I'm not here to be doubted, I'm here to help.
But unless some of you stick up for me, on principle rather than friendship, I can stop typing anything in this part of TGO. I'm not gonna let one **** drive me away, but I'll go if I'm not wanted. Send him PMs until he publicly apologizes here, because he did wrong and y'all know it.

 

Yeah, you're right. I'm the one calling people names if they don't agree with me. I don't owe you an apology for disagreeing with you.

So now who needs to get over themselves?

Atilla the Fun ?

 

Well, I see a little griping going on. While Drew usually does have strong opinions that could be questioned, I have to agree with him on this one. Getting the best body is by far the number 1 priority with these cars. I also agree that the interior can be replaced much cheaper and easier than doing body work. I can swap an interior, but I'd have to leave major body and paint to someone else. That adds cost! I also have to agree that the 3rd gen handles much better than the 4th gen. It was designed that way. My stock IROC-Z will out corner a stock 02 SS on any road.

Now, the name calling part is uncalled for. The forum rules specifically state that name calling is unacceptable on TGO. Since the argument was made public, so will the scolding. Atilla, sorry to say this, but Drew does not owe you an apology for his comments. He was merely disagreeing with your opinion and stating why. You resorted to the name calling and requesting others to reprimand him via PMs. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with that, but.... I'm not going to ask you to leave the H/R forums like you mentioned, but you need to be able to listen to others opinions also.

Based on all this, I think the original poster question was asked and answered!!