See that's where the argument divides. I fully understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with you. The only way I find it demeaning is if this site turned into a part-out extravaganza where selling parts off would hold significantly more traffic volume on the server than something like tech help or some other vital part of the forum contributing to the hobby. While I certainly do love my thirdgen, I honestly don't care what other people do with theirs. Want to part out your ride? Ok, cool - it's not my car, and not my problem. It doesn't offend me because it's not my property. Someone else will end up using those parts to bring another car to former glory so really - it's not a loss. Just depends how you look at it. I know of several local guys that part thirdgens on here from time to time.. guess what they're doing? Funding their thirdgen project. These same people give back just as much as they are "taking". The only people (like I said) that pose an issue are the ones that just use this site as a means to part cars out and make money with zero interest in bettering the community outside of that.. no different than the people who sign up simply to advertise and sell their ride.

I do understand your passion to preserve the cars, but parting cars has just as much weight to this hobby as restoring one. Without one - the other can't exist. I don't see the evil in it.

 

Ok everyone, let's violate a board rule and talk politics!

I've started following politics over the past few years out of fear for the direction of the country. Prior to looking into the politics and getting educated on how things work, I would say that the government should do this or that to prevent this or that from happening. Now, I say, the government needs to get out. If those in charge start dictating who and what can do things, then the people lose their independent freedom. I'm all for freedom and people's right to make their own decisions.

In regards to this thread, it has been said that we can't stop people from parting cars any more than we can stop people from painting Camaros like the General Lee. The administration (government) needs to do our jobs of keeping the site running and making sure the rules are followed. End of story. The people (membership) need to regulate themselves and the government needs to not get involved unless the rules are violated. Don't ask the Government (administration) to create new rules that make the site the way you want to see it, because it won't be the way others want to see it. Every time the US govt gets involved in an attempt to improve things for some, it destroys the freedoms of others.

Upper management may disagree with me on what I said, but the people need to regulate themselves. Just don't violate policy while doing so.

 

 

That's exactly what came to my mind, actually. Just didn't feel like making that analogy because there's always that one person who enjoys taking political ideas way out of context. I completely agree, though

 

No...they can't sell their parts to hawks or thirdgenranch. That's what I'm talking about.

Thanks for agreeing with me?

 

My second statement was in reference to finding another local member on here to buy parts from and the chances of that from actually occuring. It happens, but it's not common because there's many of us from all over the world on this site - and not every thirdgenner is on TGO or cares about TGO. In regards to my first, though - it doesn't mean I wouldn't buy parts off here or have them shipped. I've actually done it off of several other forums without issues, but I don't particularly like it because of the huge possibility for dishonesty when it comes to sites like these that have a difficult time protecting members against fraud. That's just me though from prior experiences (and I've got quite of few of them from buying/trading through forums).

As far as your luck, I have no idea what to tell you. I've got no problems moving any of my 302/351 parts, and I build on them more than I do my Camaro.


+ realistically, how is thirdgenranch any better than these people parting cars out? They're doing the same thing. It's money. They're here for business, and they're a good business because they support our hobby.. but it is a business nonetheless. Have you seen some of the cars thirdgenranch gets their hands on and strips??

 

I'm not selling those kinds of parts. (except a couple pulleys) It's more like ac, clusters, and some other stuff.
I never said they were better, just saying there's already companies that were here before the next guy who parts out. These places already have them down for quite a while.

 

I agree there, but some of these guys can offer to sell parts cheaper because it's just them and not a company with overhead, profit margins, etc. I support them, but also keep in mind they definitely know what their stuff is worth and their prices will reflect heavily upon that. Some of that stuff I'm just not willing to pay that kind of money for when I can buy a $200 part for $50 from someone gutting a car.

 

1957 Chevys,Fords and most other high dollar cars today werent "priceless cars by any means" back when they were used either,but as more and more people destroyed them and parted them out they grew more and more desirable and many more could have been still on the road now had they not been crushed years ago.
Most cars with a strong and loyal following have great parts support today.
You can buy nearly every item needed to restore a 1955-1957 Chevy and Mustang new today,and there are tons of brand new repro parts for second generation and third generation Firebirds and Camaros from places like Classic Industrys,etc.

In my opinion it is a crime to see a low production car like a 1991-1992 Trans am or GTA wind up ruined and parted out because someone had now regard for it..mark my words these cars will be tommorows high dollar collectible muscle cars.

 

What's been suggested is aimed at preserving and promoting Thirdgens, improving our image, increasing appreciation, and giving the forum some direction. The response seems to be saying that Thirdgen.org is not an enthusiast forum, run by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts. The impression I get is that the administration/owners run this site to sell advertising, and it has nothing to do with the cars. They're not enthusiasts at all. That's fine, except that the situation only gets worse, and the forum doesn't give me the impression that it's doing anything to improve things. For that reason I wonder why I'd want to participate and continue to contribute on a car forum that doesn't give a rat's *** about cars.


Those in favor of preserving, and promoting Thirdgens, improving our image, increasing appreciation, and giving the forum some direction, need to speak up and be heard. Because the admin's aren't going to listen to three people when the membership is over 10,000 members.

 

Sadly, I don't think most people care enough to do so. They come on here, post their build thread and just sit and watch people reply.

 

Drew, I hope you got the jist of my post above. The site admins and moderators *should* only moderate and make sure the rules are followed. The policing of content can be monitored and regulated by the members. The members need to step up as you are suggesting and not allow the riff raff to do these things. I believe you said before that on a Mustang forum, the members would literally belittle the actions of some and they would either change their ways or not visit the board. All I'm asking is that if we as a collective group do this, then we need to do it without violating policy. If someone asks for opinions about painting the rebel flag on the roof of their 3rd gen and wants to paint the car orange, and enough people tell him that it would look stupid, he either won't do it or will do it anyway and won't post on TGO for fear of people thinking he's stupid for doing it. If enough members start policing the threads, then the stupidity will go away and the enthusiasts will be the remainder of TGO.

 

Sounds fair to me.......

 

Except there is a very fine line between doing that, and trolling. Do it often enough and you're likely to get banned for always starting trouble.

 

We'll do it shifts to keep the heat off.

 

Currently, I own 3 ThirdGens (1988 GTA Notchback, 1992 T/A 305/5-speed Convertible, 1988 Trans AM WS6). I'm considered "Administration". If I wasn't an "enthusiast", I not only wouldn't own 1 or multiple ThirdGens, I probably wouldn't even be here at all. Dirk, one of the original owners and founders of this site, asked me to join in my capacity. I didn't come from the business that bought ThirdGen from Dirk. I'm also not here to sell advertising as that's handled by a seperate department, however, I do work with them. Therefore, I think your comments are off the mark.

I'm sorry that you don't feel I'm an "enthusiast" because I'm not convinced that we need to force people into certain viewpoints or opinions - specifically when it comes to ThirdGens - or be removed from the site. About the only time I'd really agree with that is if someone were here to talk bad about the ThirdGen. That's usually just to stir the pot or disrupt the forums.

The thread where you called out Administration due to people doing tacky modifications to their ThirdGen - which implied it's our fault and our place to regulate - was not widely agreed upon either. Jason, who shares your own opinion to regulate parting out complete cars, said he does not agree with that proposal. So even there's disagreements between those that share some of your own views.

To think just because this stance is being taken, which is to try and attempt that ThirdGen remain for all ThirdGen owners with few regulations, that we're not "enthusiasts" and that we don't care is just off the mark. Just like it was when it was stated we're "supporting" things just because we don't specifically ban it. You know, there's other positions: neutral or unbiased.

I'm not sure it's our place to delete people off the site that don't agree with the opinion or viewpoint of a certain group unless it were to violate our basic rules and guidelines. Is that how things are done outside of the Internet? Do you have people taken away, out of your world, that don't share your exact opinions or viewpoint? As adults, I'd think we can co-exist with others.

I appreciate Scott's Government comparison, and I don't believe it could be said any better. That's despite Scott probably completely agrees with all of your concerns (e.g., parting out cars, tacky modifications). Personally, regardless if you want to believe it or not, I agree with them as well. But I appreciate that, despite Scott's own opinion and viewpoint, he can understand that people do have to co-exist, regardless of their opinions and viewpoints, and not be forced out or forced to comply with certain views or opinions when it comes to their ThirdGen.

You guys aren't exactly responsbile for whatever happens. You can take a stance, stick with it, and sit back with little to no consequences. You have more freedom as you do not have to consider, or even care about, anything other than your own opinion.

 

Funny enough this thread and most of the comments surely aren't improving your image or anyone elses in the thirdgen community

Jt is very right and he nor anyone else should implement that much control

 

I skimmed, but I'm honestly not going to read all that because I've already lost faith and no longer see a point in pressing the issue... You, JT, don't entirely make up the "administration" or "owners" of which I'm speaking. So please, don't take it so personally.

You keep talking about suggestions made in other threads that only one person has brought up here. They're different topics. No one is asking anyone to FORCE any one or any thing. Neutral or unbiased translates to me as apathy. Many people have voiced concerns over the problems, and suggested that the solution start here. A few of us have made suggestions that might start to bring about that change. The management here doesn't care about the issues that are being raised, or feel that it'll make too many waves to be justified. So Thirdgen.org isn't going to take any steps to improve the situation. That's my opinion, accurate or not that's how I view the situation.

Like it or not, the admins and moderators are responsible for the content that gets hosted here. You choose what to allow or disallow. Right now you're choosing to support the wholesale butchery of these cars, and you're taking zero action to prevent it.

 

I have been reading this for the past two days and feel that I need to add my two cents now. I am in the military and deployed right now. Hopefully coming home in to weeks. All this talk about freedom and how people are free to do as they wish with thier cars and the mods/admin can't/won't stop them is wrong.
That is what being in a free country is all about. If the person that is running the forum does not like what the other person is doing with thier cars, the owners of that forum have the "freedom" to delete or remove any posts that do not represent the ideals for the forum. The Admin/mods are the governing force to make this happen.
The persons that are parting out thier cars elected to do so on this site cause it is their "freedom" to sign up and join the forum. However, ones freedoms end when they block or hinder the next persons freedoms. Yes, anybody is free to join the site,but when thier freedom hurts the collective whole of the organization thier freedoms stop.
This is the same basis as any organization that you can think of accross the United States. We live in a free country however we are not free to walk into a fast food resturant without a shirt or shoes..Why not? It is a free country right?
There is also schools that only allow certain religions of kids to go there. Why?, just cause I am not catholic I can't attend? I though that it was a free country.
This list can go on and on. The basic reason I say this is cause These people do have the right to part out their cars if they want. Nobody can tell them they can't. However people can thell them where it is appropriate to do so and where it is not. That is the power of "freedom". That is the power of the nation that we live in. I can do what I want until you step on the toes of others, then your "freedom" is hindered. These people do have the freedom to part thier cars, however, I do not think that this forum should allow the practice to happen here. Those people have the freedom to join another forum or post their adds on other avenues of media to sell thier items.

 

Drew, I'm not really surprised. Although you have a lot of knowledge and experience with the ThirdGens, in my opinion, you have one of the worst outlooks and opinions of this site, the ThirdGens in general, and even the members. It's been made clear in this and other threads. It's for those reasons as to why I really don't think we can really please you, to be completely, totally, honest. I really do find that very unfortunate as, over the years, despite you've made some waves yourself with members, I've appreciated your participation.

As one that has been persistently present here, as "Administration", you effectively lumped me into your sweeping comments about the people in charge not being an "enthusiast" or even caring. Or that I'm supporting something because we're not specifically banning it.

It's related because it's one that you took part in. You, apparently, still feel it's valid. So that's next in line if such a proposal were taken to prevent parting out ThirdGens.

Suggesting that we ban certain actions on this site that's related to ThirdGens is forcing something.

And some have voiced their opposing opinion of us forcing others to either not part out complete cars, to not participate on this site if they perform tacky modifications to the ThirdGen, that aren't knowledgeable enough, etc.

This is posted in the History/Restoration forum, which would probably be the most appropriate forum to support this proposal. That said, the response is not overwhelming to support your proposal for us to force participation based on what others do to their ThirdGen. The opposite would be if this thread was in the Classifieds section. No guesses there as to what type of response that might produce.

To repeat myself, you aren't exactly responsbile for whatever happens. You can take a stance, stick with it, and sit back with little to no consequences. You have more freedom as you do not have to consider, or even care about, anything other than your own opinion.

I repeat the above, again, because based on your above comments, it's very clear that it's not something you have to consider or even care about. It is also for this reason as to why I'm starting to lose interest in this topic myself as some just don't have to consider anything outside of their own opinion, and when that's a factor, it really appears it's a lose-lose situation.

Drew, I'm interested in making things better for anyone that has a valid argument and that we can support. However, of course, it has to be reasonable. At this time, I'm not so sure this proposal is reasonable. And adding in the other suggestions, which seems like they want to come through the gates as well, makes it even worse.

 

I could not agree with this more, you have taken the words directly out of my mouth. If JT or the other "admins" can't get the point after reading that then they never will. This idea that we're forcing anyone to do anything is a complete farce and a gross misinterpretation of what has been said.

I'm one of the bad guys that is advocating the censorship of parting "good" cars AND sub-par contribution from other members. Its this simple, keep out the bad apples or you'll spoil the whole lot. Take an active approach to flushing out the substandard member input, and stop providing a playground for hacks to destroy cars. If you don't do that, the site WILL suffer I assure you. Prepare for CONTINUED AND ADVANCING irrelevance among knowledgable contributors, and the perpetuation of the white trash garbage thirdgen stereotype. It really is that simple....

 

lol the most untrue statement i have seen. I know i see less stingrays on the road then i do camaros but if i need a part one of my 79 rays all i gotta do is call a local shop and bam they order my part when cars become rare and more desirable for restoration after market companies produce parts and NOS come out of the woodworks

 

I'll be honest, I don't get how implementing a rule to dictate what one does to their ThirdGen, while on this site, is not some form of "forcing" anyone to do anything. Only counterargument I see is that we probably won't change the person as they will continue to do what they will do. They just cannot do it while on the site. If they want to participate on this site, yes, they're being forced to share your same opinion and values regarding their own ThirdGen or face banning or deletion. Adding a rule is somewhat a forcible measure, isn't it?

Some can continue to say that I/we don't get it, however, I think it goes both ways. Some don't get that they don't have to consider or care whatsoever about the opposing viewpoint or opinions when managing a community.

 

First, thanks for serving the country and we hope you return safely home. It's people like you that give us those Freedoms.

With the above in mind, by not allowing people to part out complete, "good", ThirdGens, those people would argue that we're hindering on their freedom.

Blocking people from participating on this site, due to what they do with their ThirdGen, would have them arguing that we're hindering "the next person's freedom". I can say this, as a Moderator for some years, and seeing this argument used for basic moderation.

However, you're right. We can ban, block or deny anyone or anything on this site. That's not the issue. The above is not a valid argument for those people.

The issue is strictly that banning certain people from participating on this site, those who have differing opinions or viewpoints with their ThirdGen, may not be the most reasonable action when this site was formed for all ThirdGen owners. And it paves the way for others to argue that we can/should go further (such as the proposal that Drew and 1MeanZ support that would ban people or actions that are deemed as bad image to ThirdGens). This is not a stretch because, if this 'no parting out good ThirdGens' was adopted, it would be the very first of its kind as our rules have only been basic rules that did not intrude into what people do with their own ThirdGen.

I'll just say that I don't think it's a 100% no decision. Personally, I just don't feel it's a reasonable decision, and so far, I have not really been convinced enough to change that when we're responsible for the site. You don't have to care or consider the other person's view or opinion.

Regardless, my opinion is this is more of a "feel good" rule and much less of one that really changes what's going to continue to happen. We'll be able to shield our eyes and ears of what's going to continue to happen. And the people chopping a "good" ThirdGen will be laughing as they get around the rule.

 

they will just take a sledge hammer and spray paint and make it a not so good thirdgen so they can part it

which in turn will damage usable parts that could be used...just to please your lets not destroy good third gens on this site

they will be destroyed before they get here and theres nothing any of you can do about that...so taking that in mind lets just delete the classifieds section all together

or limit it to aftermarket sales only

but wait the aftermarket BLOWS for thirdgens

so now where do we get our parts....

 

This same thing happened to 67-69 camaros, 70-81 camaros except in the news paper , **** happens people, if we want to part out anything we will, whether it's in the paper or craigslist or thirdgen.org or any other website.

 

I've been on forums where they limit the classified section to members who have contributed enough to be worthy of it. Not that having a high post count really means a lot. So I guess it would start a lot of drama and be like playing favorites if you had to ask a mod for permission and it was like "okay you've posted a lot and helped a lot of people out, I'll allow you to part a car on here" or maybe a "you slapped a carb on your tpi car, you're a hack get lost"

 

Or how about it's a free for all, do what you want because it's yours to sell?

 

JT, From 1996 to 2001 I watched Thirdgen.org grow and improve. There was a sense of community, and a ton of tech content added. The average member could go near his car with a screwdriver and it'd still run afterwards. About the time the non-technical forum went downhill, Dirk started losing interest. It was basically on cruise control until it was sold. Since then this website has been a shadow of what it was before. Nothing new has been added, but plenty of things have gone away, including the knowledgeable members. I can't relate with many people around here because the majority of members now are short term members that don't stick around long enough to know what the hell they're talking about. What was a a great website has really gone to hell. Wouldn't that make you a little grumpy? Yeah, I'm disappointed.

The two topics aren't related except that they're both intended to raise the bar around here. One can't realistically be easily be enforced, so the subject was dropped. This suggestion would be easily enforced and if it were adopted enforcement wouldn't even take that much effort since people would follow it just like every other rule.

Is it any wonder more people aren't speaking up in favor of something like this? This isn't a busy sub-forum on here, and anyone supporting it is risking getting in a debate with an Admin. I can't help but think that if the majority were actually polled and the idea wasn't being shot down by an Admin so quickly, that the majority would probably tell you that they'd rather not see decent thirdgens scrapped. But hey, like I've said a dozen times, you have your opinion on the topic and I'm not going to change it. Likewise you're not going to change my opinion... It is what it is, and it's not a personal issue.

I'm not responsible for anything here. But I have been. I took plenty of heat for moderating this forum, back in the day before you were even a member here. I know what it's like being the party pooper more then you know. I just don't think that upsetting a few people that aren't going to stick around and be active members ANYWAY after they finish scrapping their car, is such a considerable loss.

 

We all love our camaros here " I Am in love with mine even though it's an RS and would love it the same if it was a IROC Z28 but that's beside the point. Drew you may need a break from this website man.... You might be on the verge of a emotional break down.

 

I think Drew is just passionate about what he believes in. Nothing wrong with that. I think the message I'm getting is that we just need to start policing ourselves. That's a good start.

 

Drew, I'm probably not going to continue with this as I believe I'm in a lose-lose situation and this may not be best use of my time anymore. Right now, I don't think this proposal is a reasonable one that we can adopt. I'm still open on matters, including this one. I would like to consider things further, but this topic has deteriorated.

As something was proposed, as Administration, I considered both sides to attempt to do what's best for the community by considering the entire community. Some personal judgment is included. I shared, and stated, the concerns for preserving and wanting a good image. However, considering different opinions and viewpoints is part of the process. As I previously said, there are things I'd change if it were solely my personal preference at play. This is not something of your concern as you, a member, have no responsibility or real concern with whatever happens as long as you can continue to come here and participate. It's no loss to you if a group is shut out that doesn't share your opinion or viewpoint. As I said, you, being a member, can form an opinion and viewpoint, stick with it, and couldn't care less about anyone else. That's not exactly something we can do.

I cannot please everyone. Trying to consider both sides here is important and difficult, but having you pick apart things, and throwing in all sorts of extras, makes it more difficult. Like the other thread, where you supported banning/removing tacky modifications, you threw a lot at us. Forum sort order is wrong. The Tech Data is a mess. There's not much documentation on the site, RPO decoder, etc. Some of those you have a point.

Sometimes this is good. We're working on a new RPO decoder program. I'm still trying to populate it from GM sources. A VIN decoder, by Douglas, will be available. I want to fix whatever you see is wrong with the Tech Data, but your strings (must be written on one page, for example) is a bit of a hurdle.

You appeared to suggest I may be "too dense" because I'm simply not agreeing with you on the proposal. It appeared you may lump not agreeing with you and not understanding the situation as the same thing. That I'm not being open-minded and arguing despite that could describe you as well. That Administration/Ownership aren't enthusiasts. That's just the past day or so. When I recall posts over the past few years, where you provided significant negativity over the cars, the members and the site, it honestly has me wondering if you're having me chasing something unobtainable.

As far as others speaking up to support it, I'll say it again. It would appear to me that those most likely in favor of this proposal would be the people that browse the History/Restoration forum. Those are the people that are interested in restoring, documenting and preserving ThirdGens. And this proposal is right here, on your turf. The flip side would be having this discussion in the Classifieds where the feedback would probably be less favorable. So we move this off of your turf, and you think the majority is going to be in favor of it? I guess it's possible.

I will repeat once again. I appreciate your involvement due to your knowledge and experience with the ThirdGens. I will do whatever I can to try and do what's best for the community. I will not be able to please everyone. I will not always be right. This current proposal, however, is just not something I'm convinced on. However, your negative outlook on the members of this site, owners of these cars, the cars itself, and us, well it does wear. The one thing we now have in common and agreement with is that we're probably both spent.

 

Not going to bother reading the last two pages since I already know it's the same old rehash...

...but on that note, I'd guess about half of the cars are still clinging to life on the road or in the backyard, optimistically.

Parting issue aside, for whatever reason I've noticed that thirdgen owners as a whole think they are real "bad boys", and end up thrashing the hell out of the cars; it seems like very few thirdgens get really babied.

Not that they should get babied, but I've seen many a thirdgen being just beat on incessantly til it breaks, then it gets parked (no money), then it gets parted. Cycle repeats.

 

I agree!!! Sorta like having a Champagne taste with a Pepsi Cola pocket book...