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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
Read this entire thread , and all i can say is you have grit, fortitude and patience - all important traits to needed to deal with 3rd gens and all the problems we face as the car ages ungracefully, lol. Reminds me of my 88 SC - also red with gray interior but with the 200R4. AFAIC if you love the car and you're in good health, doesn't really matter how much $$ you sink into it, it's all good therapy. Keep up the great work!
Now throwing Code 42 (Eletronic Spark Timing, etc.).
Code 54 (fuel pump low voltage) is back too.
Seems like there is no sure way to diagnose these things.
I ordered one of those "re-manufactured" Cardone ECM's.
Hoping it isn't actually a POS.
Would be nice if the "new" ECM would cause the timing-mark to actually stay in the same zip code for more than a half-second.
Cool thread. Love these updated older threads that I have never seen before.
An old school trick is to put a breaker bar on the front crankshaft bolt & turn it so the timing mark is on at maybe 16 degrees. Then pull the distributor cap & tape a pencil to the rotor to exaggerate its rotation (make it more noticeable) then slowly turn the engine from 16 to "0" then reverse rotate it the other way until the pencil moves & see what timing mark you are at. It will give you an idea on how much play is in the chain & distributor /cam gear & how much the timing could be jumping from chain &/or gear play.
I just replaced my alt in my '88 V6 and I've been thankful for every trouble free start since....this thread is making me even more thankful for each trouble free mile xD
Currently working on the front suspension project.
I got a pair of used control arms from my buddy Jerry. He replaced the arms on his Indy 500 pace car with a set of the fancy tubular arms. So, my plan is to transplant the arms from his car to my car after I get done replacing the bushings and ball joints on the Indy 500 arms. I figured it would be a smart move to attempt this project with donor arms, rather than risk destroying the existing A-arms, or getting the suspension halfway disassembled, and then realizing I have no idea what I'm doing, or that I need some special tool that I can't even describe.
Nothing special about the Indy 500 arms. I just like saying "Indy 500."
Going into the suspension project, I knew was going to encounter parts that would resist movement without serious leverage. So, I splurged on a Milwaukee M18 impact wrench. All I can say is, the M18 really IS the bomb.
I've never removed a ball joint or A-arm bushing before. This moved me to watch several youtube videos of other amateurs tackling the job. Even if you never go to battle with an 80's A-arm, I can recommend those vids for the entertainment value. Being a bit of a pyro myself, I especially enjoyed the guys who burned the old bushings out of the arms. The comments in the fire-vids are priceless. Then there is "Chris Fix." Bless his heart, Chris does post some pretty good vids, and I especially admire his unrelenting optimism toward every job he tackles. I still got a bit of a laugh when Chris mashed the control arms for his truck with the Auto Parts rental ball joint tool. I guess he didn't see that coming.
In view of Chris's mishap, I fashioned a support system (pics coming later today), so I would not mash my A-arms.
I got the old ball joint out so easily it was almost a joke. The right tool for the job, and the crazy power of the Milwaukee M18 impact wrench to drive it made it nearly child's play.
I figured I'd probably destroy the Auto Parts rental ball-joint tool in the process of improvising usage to drive out the bushings. So, I ordered a $115 tool off Amazon - the Astro Pneumatic 7897.
Linky >>>>
I'll start by saying two things about the tool investment.
This car is not about the $$$ issue. I do this for a hobby and my own entertainment.
I forgot what the other thing is.
If you are thinking about buying the Astro Pneumatic tool, be forewarned, the kit is MUCH LARGER than it appears on the Amazon site. That blow-molded case is HUGE. And its heavy! BTW, those A-arms are heavy too, and they have lots of sharp edges. I got a fresh tetanus shot yesterday morning before strarting this. No joke. I really did.
The Astro kit is not claimed to be designed for the purpose of removing control arm bushings. Its claim to fame is BALL JOINT service. But, with some ingenuity, it can be used as a press for all manner of things. It doesn't even come with instructions beyond the list of vehicles that it is supposed to service. The list is so vague, I couldn't tell if third-gen Camaros are even on the list. I guess its one of those tools where if you need instructions, you probably shouldn't be using it.
I had to resist modifying the Astro tool with the angle-grinder. Through the use of a hammer, and determination, and without attacking it with the angle grinder or modifying the Astro tool, I SUCCEEDED in removing the bushings from the first A-arm yesterday. I didn't get any pics of the Astro kit in situ because it was getting late, and I was losing light (and losing patience!). My back and my hands were barking hard, and my hands were covered in A-arm goop. So, I just didn't want to mess with my camera under those circumstances. Especially since I wasn't sure I wasn't completely failing. Who wants a photo record of that?!!!
The C-clamp in the Astro kit has some sort of hard paint that flakes badly if you hit the clamp with a hammer. Naturally, the flakes are sharp, and they make a beeline for your face. Oh, and the M18 drives that C-clamp in the Astro kit LIKE A BOSS!!! Just be careful handling the screw-shaft of the C-clamp after you've run it hard with an impact tool. It generates tiny little metal splinters which WILL impale the palm of your hand. Always nice to get a handful of metal splinters lubricated with Kroil and WD-40 and rust. Good thing I got that tetanus shot!
I still have one more A-arm to to tackle. Now that I know it can be done, I'll try to get some pics of the Astro kit and the M18 wrench in their awesome glory.
I had a lot of work to do today, so I decided the best way to avoid doing it would be to out and drive the red Camaro just for the hell of it. It was just about the right time of day to avoid rush hour traffic. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
I noticed it was down a quart of oil before I left. Added a quart of 5w-30 and hit the road. We have a lot of major roads around here, which offers options for the drive. My main justification for the outing was "test the new ECU." I had taken it for a short-ish drive after installing the replacement/rebuilt ECU late in the afternoon several days ago. On the previous drive, it ran OK - as in NO STUTTERING. Today, I took it farther and harder. I gotta say I'm pleased. Again no stuttering. The loose timing issue remains an issue. Definitely still some lumpiness to the idle - and it sure as hell isn't because it has a lumpy tune or a lumpy performance cam. Yet, at WOT, it seems to adapt, and I'm not feeling major timing-related performance issues. Most of all, at just off-idle acceleration - the dread-zone for stuttering prior to replacing the ECU - the car didn't act up at all. I'm mighty pleased.
I'm not confident that I can say the new ECU is the solution to the stuttering, because I have no corroborating evidence (tuner-data, circuit readings, etc.). I did notice my fly was open when I finished my run. So, maybe that was my good luck charm today. Who knows?
At least I won't be questioning my sanity while I spend more $$$ and time going through the front suspension in the coming months.
Speaking of the front suspension, I promised some pic of the control arm project. Pics below.
What you see below is one of the control arms from Jerry's Indy 500 pace car (Hah!... I got to say "Indy 500" whild talking about my car again!" The "Chris Fix" video gave me ideas about how to do my Camaro control arms, and also how NOT to do my Camaro control arms. You can see Chris mashing his truck's control arm at about 5:21 in his video at
My notion was to build some sort of support to prevent me from doing the dumb thing Chris did. I bought two pieces of common steel pipe at Home Depot. One piece is 1.5" diameter, the other is 2.0" diameter. I cut each respective piece so it was the right size to fit in the "gap" of the control arm to prevent the arm from being mashed when I started pressing the bushing out. I split each piece of pipe lengthwise, so I could fit the pieces of the pipe into the gap, and then I secured the pieces with an alligator hose clamp so the pieces of pipe would't shift while I was applying pressure. It took way longer than I thought it should to create those pipe-pieces, but it paid off. The pipe-piece prevented damage, and I was able to free both bushings.
As massive as the C-clamp press of the Astro tool is, the spread of the tool is just a bit short for working it on the bushings. Or the collars that come with the kit are too tall. So, I've ordered another piece of pipe (2.5" size) to work as a collar. I could butcher one of the collars on the Astro tool to make the collar shorter, but that idea just bugs me. The piece of pipe is $6 from Amazon, and I don't have the inclination to do the job before next week anyway. I'll butcher the the $6 piece of pipe when it gets here.
Sorry, no pics yet of the arm with the bushings and ball joint removed. It had gotten too dark on me, and I still needed to collect, and put-away all my tools from the back yard by the time I got the final bushing out. I actually had to cut the last bushing in the middle to get enough reach for my improvised tool, and I had to use the shower of sparks from the cut as lighting to make sure I was cutting in the right place!
So here are the pics. Comment or ask questions if you like.
All the front-suspension parts installed and torqued to spec.
Even did an ad hoc front-end alignment in the driveway.
Front wheels now lean inward ever so slightly at the top. Maybe 1/8".
Toe-in is about 1/8" (1/16" would probably te "ideal" - but I'm just gonna let it ride on these old tires).
Got to do a short test drive in Friday-afternoon Washington DC traffic., and a wee bit of WOT reaching 60 mph on one straightaway.
Hands off the wheel. Tracks straight as an arrow.
Traversing neighborhood speed-humps no longer requires removing hands from wheel to avoid the shock, and also puckering the the ol' bunghole to full-torque plus a quarter-turn to make sure the vibrations and shock don't shake any mud out or set-off a back spasm.
Learned a few tricks about getting the strut-tower mounts to move to allow camber-adjustment. Made me suspect that the last tinkerer who casually put a wrench on those mounts might have given up when the mount shot full-travel to one side all the sudden, and then he couldn't figure out how to bring it back to any other position. Its tricky. Involves jacking the car to get the weight off the wheel, and then lowering, and then jacking until you hit a "sweet spot" that allows you to actually move the darn thing.
Saying it "feels like a new car" would probably be overstating it a bit.
But, my goodness, does it ever feel tremendously better on the road.
I spent many, many, many hours refurbishing and replacing the front end suspension. I don't regret the undertaking at all. Quality time spent with an old car that seems worthy of the effort.
I have a hard time thinking of this as an "old car," since I was midway through doctoral studies when this car rolled off the assembly line. That couldn't have been THAT long ago?!!! But, to put it in perspective, the relative passage of time between when this car was first built, and its current status is the same as if I had been working on a 1948 car when I was in high school. Back in the high school days, ANYTHING from the '40's seemed like it was positively dinosaur-era.
So, there's that.
I've been keeping an eye on the cabin leaks over the months since I sealed the cowl/firewall leaks by repeatedly pouring Rustoleum paint down the cowl, and then distributing it with a high-inensity leaf blower until all the pinholes quit weeping. Also watching the roofline leaks at the drip rail. The Home Depot silicone seems to be keeping those sealed. A dry cabin has me thinking thoughts of re-installing the lower part of the dash, and the console. Maybe even a new Pioneer SuperTuner or some such.
Anybody know where I can get some Jensen 6x9's and a Kraco power booster?
Yeah, definitely jives with the tatty (black?) carpet that still lays back there. I threw-away the rest of the carpet from the front area because it was foul. Now the floorboards are brushed-on Rustoleum black.
I still need to drill a drain hole in the back cargo well to allow the leak-water to escape.
Latest event is modification of the ECU to allow 28-pin PROM chip instead of original 24-pin chip.
Had to de-solder the 24-pin holder, and replace with 28-pin holder.
Also had to COPY the original 24-pin chip to a new 28-pin chip (used gear from Moates).
Installed a ZIF ("zero insertion force" - flippy switch) holder on top of the new 28-pin holder.
My ECU has two removable chips. One is the PROM (all the data that the car uses to run in closed loop), and a second chip that is called the CALPAK (which I don't fully understand yet). So, still had to swap the CALPAK chip from the daily ECU to the science-project ECU before test drive.
Just got back from the test drive.
Ran like a scalded ape.
At least to the extend that a 30-year-old tired V6 runs like a scalded anything. Maybe more like an aroused spider monkey. Got it to 70 mph in third gear (downhill WOT) without drama at least. Didn't have time to take it out to the highway for full WOT in 5th gear. Weekend traffic clog. Inches of rain coming.
Maybe I'll build a Kydex cover for the chip that now bulgest above the ECU housing.
Ignore the "knock sensor" notation. The boys in the PROM subforum straightened me out on that. Should be CALPAK - not knock-sensor.
WEG, I do happen to have a V6 ECM out of an 88 that is just laying around- not sure if it is 100% operational but you can have for the cost of shipping.
The laminate-circuit-sheet on the replacement is in much better condition than the laminate-circuit-sheet on the original cluster. And the tachometer works!
I may still repair the tach on the old cluster just for the fun of doing it. I think new laminate-circuit-sheets can be had too. I should look into that.
Looks like tomorrow should be good weather for test-driving the new cluster, and hopefully data-logging at the same time.
As I’ve been learning about the workings of the systems on this car, OrangeBird has been kind enough to provide this detailed explanation of the SIX temperature sensors that this V6 motor utilizes.
These are the sensors/switches and their functions ;
In the intake manifold at the front left hand side , there are two , the CSI switch , which reads the coolant temp and controls the CSI only , no ECM involvement , and the ECM's coolant temp sensor which does tell the ECM the coolant temp so the ECM can rich/lean the mixture depending on engine temperature and command the radiator fan to turn on at the proper temp .
The passenger's side cyl head near the back of the engine , the "fan override switch" , this switch controls the radiator fan in the event the ECM fails to . Just as the fuel pump has two means of control (Oil pressure switch and ECM control of the fuel pump relay) , the radiator fan relay has 3 means of control and can be commanded by either the ECM temp sensor , the passenger's side fan override switch , or by putting the A/C control to the "Max cool" position , thus three independent means of triggering the radiator fan depending on engine temperature conditions/A/C control lever position .
The drivers side cyl head at the front of the head , this sensor controls the dashboard mounted temperature gauge only , no ECM involvement .
Mounted in the incoming airflow of the air induction system , the IAT sensor , Intake Air Temp , which reports to the ECM the temperature of the ambient air coming into the manifold , used by the ECM to tailor fuel mixture to the ambient air temp .
So there are 5 devices measuring temperature ;
1, CSI switch (No ECM involvement)
2 , ECM coolant temp sensor (Reports to ECM , Will control mixture/timing as well as the radiator fan)
3 , Fan override switch (No ECM involvement but will "cover for" the ECM if the ECM fails to command the fan , hence it's name "fan override switch" . Normally the ECM should be in command of the fan , but if for whatever reason it does not , the fan override switch will prevent a cooked engine)
4 , Dash gauge sensor (No ECM involvement)
5 , IAT sensor (reports ambient air temp to the ECM)
Also , just to throw it into the mix , the "02 sensor" in the exhaust is technically a temperature sensor also , It's not directly measuring the amount of oxygen in the exhaust flow despite it's name , it's actually measuring the exhaust temperature and the ECM extrapolates it's readings into an oxygen reading of ; higher temp = lean mixture = more oxygen , lower temp = rich mixture = less oxygen .
Been slow-going with the Sport Coupe project lately. Got sidetrackedwith an alternator replacement and a stripped drain-plug on the oil pan of my Toyota daily driver.
I did manage to still get a new one-year state safety inspection on the Sport Coupe.
It was a close call because when I got to the inspection station, the brake lights weren't working. I was sure I'd checked everything before heading to the inspection station. But, it turned out that the rear hatch pulldown motor had finally given up the ghost for good, and in such a way that the shattered motor housing managed to cut the insulation on the wires the third brake light, causing the fuse for the rear lights to blow. I had to take it home without getting an inspection, and sort out the issue. I repaired the fuse, and taped over the exposed wires. I detacched the rear hatch struts so the weight of the hatch would keep contact with the contact pad for the third brake light.
When I went back to the inspection station, the inspector persisted in turning on the AC system to verify the defrost function (Virginia will fail you if defrost doesn't work). I still haven't fixed my AC, so when the compressor is activated it sounds like holy hell, but it does spin. The compressor fights back though, and will stall the motor if you don't keep the rev's up. But, it will blow air out of the defrost ducts.
Anyhow, I ordered a replacement pull-down motor assembly from Hawks. I got that installed today. A little tricky since the the spring that causes the latch to to engage had become detatched within the unit. A few tense minutes later, I figured out why the replacement "wasn't working." Its working fine now. I also realized I could cure some of the caddywampusness of my rear hatch by taking advantage of the side-to-side adjustability of the motor. I mounted it as far to the passenger side as possible. So, now I actually have a little gap on the driver-side, between the back panel of the hatch and the body of the car.
I have a new AC compressor and drier sitting here in a box. I think I may go ahead and get a condensor and evaporator, and just replace all the major A/C components. I'm concerned that the existing components are degraded to some significant degree, and probably contaminated with umpteen previous owners injections of dye, and excess oil, and who-knows-what. I gotta figure out why the high-speed setting isn't working on blower. Hopefully get into it before the coldest weather gets here.
I think I finally "solved" the bucking-bronco syndrome with the current motor. It still leaks oil some, and I'm sure the timing chain is stretched. But it no longer spontaneously shuts off for a millisecond and then comes back on, and on-and-on like that in a bucking-bronco whiplash manner. The solution came mostly by happenstance. I did get the ECU connected to TunerPro so I could finally see what the ECU was seeing. I was shocked to see that the Vehicle Speed Sensor was reporting that the vehicle speed was stupid-high. Frequently reporting 254 mph. It didn't really occur to me that the Speed Sensor would be the cause of the bucking bronco. But, at about the same time, I got a good deal on a gauge cluster from a V8 car. The Vehicle Speed Sensor is mounted on the backside of the gauge cluster. With the replacement gauge cluster with the replacement speed sensor, I no longer was getting crazy data reporting from the speed sensor to the ECU. The bucking-bronco thing went away though. Not a single instance of it in about 200 miles of driving since installing the gauge cluster from the V8 car.
The "spare" 3.1 motor is still waiting for me to do something with it.
You can just pull the clutch connector off the compressor so the compressor doesn't try to work when you put the defrost on.
I am a bit surprised you haven't gotten my 3.1 going yet. You retired guys sure don't get a whole lot done. Guy down the street retired last year and he barely does anything on his cars, lol
Oh, I thought you told me you were retired and that is why you were doing the swap/rebuild. I guess not
Wife is soon to be retired.
Which will probably pull me into similar circumstance.
Still have that motor though. Still planning to go forward with the rebuild. Exact timeline uncertain.
Drove it a little bit today. But only to make room in the driveway to do some stuff with the 2015.
I did organize some of the parts at least. If that counts as any sort of progress.
If I get EVERYTHING I want, she retires, and we move to a place where I have a garage with a roof.
Been pretty hard to get traction with much in the driveway this year with SIXTY inches of rain.
Life has been in the way of me doing much with it except driving it a little here and there.
It has a new parking place on a gravel area where I can let the oil-leak continue without having to use a drip pan. The spare motor from scooter in New Jersey waits in the garage. The garage was built in the 70's to hold two 70's size cars. So this motor thing might actually happen.
I'll have to take a close look at the existing manifolds and compare them to the ones shown on the sites at the links.
Today was no day for the Camaro.
34 degrees and raining.
So, I mostly stayed inside and played with an old Beretta.
Its even older than the Camaro!
Believed that these models were 1978-1982 -- dovetails with the first year of the third-gens at least.
Well, as for "how much I got in it," I'm not really sure how to go about answering that.
Maybe the sober way to think about it is how much could I get out of it if I sold it in the current condition. We already know that by all accounts, ten-large buys a pretty nice one on the open market. Compared to the dollars-spent I've got in this one, those sober numbers make want to not be sober.
Here's the better way of looking at it to keep smiling, and keep riding.
This has to be one of the best reads I've had in years.
I wish I picked up on the story years ago.
I'm in Canada, a FAL Guy (C1) and am on my 12th Third Gen.......
Luckily my current SC is a true survivor (87, NO rust, 70K KMs, original 72 year old owner) so a few very minor issues
Reminds me of just how great all you guys are South of my border. (Did some FA shooting in Michigan years back).
Perseverance and experience wins in the end, every time.
With this stupid Pandemic, we can all use a little boast like this.
THANKS!!!!!
I'm still slow on getting the motor project underway. But at least I've got a gravel parking spot now where she can leak a bit, and I don't have to scrub a driveway.
We moved in the spring. Finally have a garage where I can work.
Since we've moved in, I've had to mainly work on the wife (not in the good way). So not much Camaro time. She's managed to blacken her own eye (walked into a wall), nearly broke her leg (severe bone-bruise falling UP the stairs), got bit by venemous snake (quarter-million dollar - yes you read that correctly - quarter million dollar bill for the antivenin treatment - haven't heard the last from the insurance company), and she broke the bejeezus out of her arm a couple weeks ago (I can sure take a punch - just kidding).
I was driving home from the rifle range a few Saturday's ago when I noticed the Fire Department rescuing "some idiot" from a perpendicular road to the road to my house, and where you wouldn't expect there to be a motor vehicle accident. Turns out, the "idiot" slipped in goose **** while she was going to "look for birds" at the storm-water impound pond at the office park near our house.
Pandemic?... What pandemic?!!! I aint got time for that!
The wife of my wife's twin brother got the COVID last week. She's fine. Sniffles and a little tired. Wife's twin brother tests negative. The folks at the clinic were so bumfuddled by him that they paid him $75 to collect extra boogers from him. I swear I'm not making this up. They paid him $75 for six extra booger-swabs!
But life is good so long as I still got my Camaro!
Now I know where I can scrounge some brackets for the custom gauge cluster I want to build.
Somebody in one of the other forums said it resembles a cat looking at a unicorn. She's a unicorn alright. Yessir...
Man o Man.
I thought I was having a bad day finding out my Bank Account got hacked......
Not a lot and maybe the bank will sort it out, but compared to the stuff you and your family have been through, I've had it good.
I wish that everyone could maintain the the great outlook you have, we all need more guys like you (with or without a Camaro).....
My Camaro is parked for the winter, so 5 months of snow................
Take care,
And thanks again for the sunlight on a cold grey day.
And to quote a buddy in the Michigan Guard, Hope you have time to GET SOME!!!!!
09-05-2017, 10:09 PM
Hi W.E.G. , 
