To the purists:

My GTA is completely rotten to the point where the only feasible option is to swap shells, would it still be a true GTA if I used a regular Trans Am or Firebird shell? could it still be registered as such?

I mean it would get every single GTA option and the shells were used basically across the board for years/trim packages right? I just don't particularly like the stigma of driving a "fake" or "replica" car. Same car, just different chassis.

 

Its not a replica or clone if its a true GTA, keep all the GTA's internal components and I'd say your fine replacing the body

 

The only problem I can foresee is if you tried to show it or sell it as a GTA. The vin# would give it away. It's probably unethical, and I'm pretty sure it's illegal, but you could pull the windshield and swap vin tags.

 

Well if you buy a base Trans Am and put the GTA stuff on it, then yes it would be a clone.
Now if you just buy a bare shell and swap the VINs, then IMO, a body is just a bunch of body panels welded together so it's a rebody and it's still a GTA. But that could be illegal, so make sure you're aware of the state regulations about it.

 

Call it your GTA...sell it as a clone.

 

Or sell/(scrap) yours and buy another GTA that doesn't need as much work. You'll be money ahead...

 

If they make a set of repo rivets then i would swap the tag to a clean shell, and the vin would be the same.
sort of the same concept as dynacorn selling a complete new body shell for classic cars, rather than replacing all the rust they can buy a new one and use the old vin
http://www.dynacornbodies.com/

or if you want to make sure the rivets are correct you could cut a section of the cowl off about 5" by 3" around your tag and weld it to a clean body.

 

What difference would it make if it was "real", or if it was a clone?

 

In all honesty and in my experience, sell or keep your car for parts, buy a nice GTA or whatever you like... it will save you money... Take it from someone that has $30,000 invested in a $5000 car.

John

 

Swapping VIN tags is a way to go, but check with your state before you do so. It has to be done correctly and then your title would read as such. Also, if you think that you can jus drill out the rivets and do your thing......be careful. There are law enforcement officials that are trained in detecting swapped/ cloned VIN tags. They will impound your car if they feel its been messed with. They will then verify the VIN and tear apart your car in the process.

Just be careful and do it by the book.


Edit. You can't buy the rivets. They are assigned to the manufacturers.

 

Swapping the VIN tags is not the way to go. That is illegal in all states!

No more discussion of it or the thread will be locked due to the fact that it is illegal and a felony.

 

I was just about to relay the same info... I am amazed that so many would even suggest it... not to mention unethical. yikes.

Make a clone and call it a day... do not ever swap, buy, or sell VIN tags.

 

Glad to see that this was being monitored. Thank you Moderator.

 

There are plenty of hidden VINs on the body anyway (I've found at least three on my '89), so a rebody would be easy to spot for any inspector...

Now how bad is the rust really, we've seen some spectacular work done here on less valuable cars than GTAs. Do you have some pics ?

 

Yes, it's in my build thread, see post 26. I was trying to replace the floorpans but I removed too much of the subframe I think, and its also ridiculously hard working around that area near the rockers in front of the wheel well.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/memb...ml#post5632423

 

I noticed this in my email, and had to chime in... Swapping VIN tags is never legal, do not bother your local law enforcement, just do not do it.

 

Ouch yeah, it's rough...time to look for another car I'd say. I faced the same issue with my '79 Esprit V6, but I gave up. Every time I cut a little rust, I found more underneath. Every panel had at least a rust hole, and a third of the body was toast.
I wish I had changed my mind earlier though, or even spotted how bad it was before even buying the car.
I later found a super cheap '74 Formula 400 shell with a clean title in the Netherlands, it still needs a lot of work (two full rear quarter panels, and some smaller bits here and there, but the floors, roof, cowl, rear deck, tail panel, all are spotless) but at least it will be a more enjoyable restoration.

With a bit of luck, you may find another GTA shell with a title, that you could put all your parts in !

 

I really don't particularly want to wait for another GTA, I only wanted one originally for the dash to be honest...but I also can't help feel that it would be kinda sacrilegious to swap everything to just a T/A when knowing I had a once top of the line car... ahhh this has been eating me all week!

 

You will find that unless you get a perfect body, in the color you want, you will be further ahead just to get another GTA at this point... You will learn a ton, but in honesty it could bite you in the butt in the end...

 

I'm checking one out not too far from me advertised for $2000, it's an '88 GTA, 120k miles, digital dash, T-tops, don't know if its an auto, but if so I can just swap my t-5 in and have a bunch of perfect spare parts.

 

Reminds me of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

 

Wow, that is definitely the paradox I feel!

 

Or sell/(scrap) yours and buy another GTA that doesn't need as much work. You'll be money ahead...[/quote]

 

The Theseus Paradox does apply, If you take car A, and install everything from car B onto Car A, at what point is it no longer car A but car B? Or if you slowly take parts from one car and transfer them over one piece at a time and have a time between swaps, at what point is it no longer the car it started as? If there is a point to where a car is no longer the car you started with, does changing a single screw mean that it is no longer the same car? Or does changing 25% or 50% make it no longer the same car? In the end, if you swap 1 piece over each day, and in the end only have one bolt from the original car, which car would it be? Ahh this is fun.

 

What is actually most fascinating is when you buy parts, Let us suppose that someone decided to make the rear uni-body from the firewall back for an 87 GTA, you have another company making the doors, and hatch, another company making fenders and hood, and yet another making bumpers, you can get aftermarket Engines & Transmissions, seats, etc... And you can get dash panels made...

In the end, would it be an 87 GTA or a kit car? Would GM be liable for it? They actually can do this with the 1st gens...

 

i just saw the pics of your GTA in your other thread. YOU PAID 1500 BUCKS FOR THAT CAR!!!??? did you feel something hit you on the back of the head when after making that deal? 'cause that should've been about $1,250 in change.

in all seriousness though, do yourself a favor and bail on this project before it even starts. you can get a nice GTA for anywhere from 10 grand on down to about 3 grand, all of which is less than it would probably cost to get the one you have now on the road. its too far gone, dude. another GTA with a 5.0 and a 5 speed shouldnt be that hard to find. i wouldnt try to tackle the project you have now even if it were a 68 Charger or something like that. a '63 split window...maybe. absolutely no reason to do it on a 3rd Gen. i can find an affordable GTA inside two hours - probably less.

 

Late 80's GTA's are so cheap right now that unless this car has some type of historical history (engineering car, 1st or last car, actual race pace car, magazine car etic) above and beyond just being a GTA it is not worth repairing. Use the parts to recoup your money you have already spent and go buy a NICE done car.

For every $1,000 extra you spend buying a NICE car right now will get you $2,000 worth of restoration work you would have had to pay for rebuilding a POS GTA.

Time to start over!

 

not to belabor the point, but i found these in just a few minutes. i realize the craigslist car is not a GTA, but it is a very nice looking Trans Am for not alot of money, and it has a 5 speed.

on the ebay cars, i realize you may not have 11K to throw around, but for that you could get an 89 Turbo TA. paint and body work are expensive. i dont think that with 11 K you will be able to get where you want to be with your GTA.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/cto/4106331801.html


http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Cars-Tru...987-92&_lsbx=0

 

Put your rusty GTA on the back burner and just use it for parts. Then look for a clean GTA. This is how I did my '88 GTA and you will save a ton of money in the long run.

 

I'm also a DeLorean owner, and a similar issue, perhaps controversy, has come up in our community. DeLorean Motor Company in Houston (not the defunct original company) possesses all of the unassembled factory parts. Picture this – In the beginning the original DMC was geared up to assemble 30K DeLorean cars in their Northern Ireland factory, but they only produced just shy of 9K cars before the company collapsed. After the collapse a company called Consolidated came in and finished what remained on the assembly line by order of the UK government. Long story short, all of the remaining individual unassembled parts at the factory and a few other places that never made it to the assembly line eventually found their way to Houston. Five years ago the current incarnation of the DeLorean Motor Company in Houston announced they planned to start assembling those NOS and OEM parts into a limited number of complete cars. The original DeLorean automobiles were assembled by the original company in their UK factory in 1981 & 1982. They are DeLoreans. The new company has most, but not quite all the original parts necessary to assemble the same car. Theoretically they would be making a car that was once intended to be assembled from that original mix of parts, but due to circumstances was not. Is a car assembled at a different place, in a different time by a different company from 90% of the original unassembled parts a DeLorean? Is it a kit car? The new DMC is NOT a manufacturer, therefore they cannot issue new VINs, plus a 2008+ DeLorean assembled in the original form would not meet current safety or emissions standards. So if they indeed assembled any completely new automobiles from those parts, which most in the community question, what are they?

What the Houston company has done prior is take an original DeLorean with a solid frame, solid underbody and good key stainless steel panels, but otherwise requiring full restoration and disassemble it. They would “remanufacture” the car starting with the original frame and fiberglass underbody (to which the original VIN plates were and continued to be attached), and rebuild the rest using NOS/OEM parts using. Is it still a DeLorean?

 

The "remanufactured" Delorean by Delorean Motor Compnay in Houston IS still a REAL Delorean. The car has the original VIN numbered chassis and the original VIN number tag. That is what is legally considered a car. Now we all may have our "OPINIONS" as to whether this is still a real Delorean however legally it certainly is! No different that any car you and I would restore/remanufacture.

As you stated the Delorean Motor Company is NOT a manufacturer so they cannot legally produce a "New" Delorean from whatever parts they have and/or from wherever they would get the parts they do not have to make a complete car. To be a manufacturer you have to have the legal ability to issue Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO) and have to meet the safety standards applicable to the time of manufacture. There ARE exceptions to the safety requirements. Look at Kit car or component car manufacture's. Laws are also different from state to state as to what can be titled and licensed in the case of component cars.

Remember Shelby American could not sell 67 Shelby Mustangs with close together front high beam headlights as they did not meet the State of California Motor Vehicle code for lighting. Shelby American had to spread out the high beam headlights on California bound cars and several other states.

 

Good to hear we share the same opinion as a good friend bought one of the remanufactured cars, and it's a sweet ride. It had a few issues when he got it, so (the new) DMC sent a transport for it, took it back, got it right and sent it back to him. They stand behind the cars.

Regarding the GTA re-shell, I agree with the others that unless this car has a historical significance your best financial move would be to find another good example. I took the past year to find my T/A, and came across many good GTA examples. The prices are right, right now.

 

It's easy to find a nice GTA for $10k. It's going to be more difficult to find one in the configuration the OP wants:

5 speed
T top
Digital dash

Although there are no records to prove exact production numbers on option combinations, an estimate wouldn't be too far off reality by using %ages on major options:

For example, production figures show 809 GTA's were equipped with a manual transmission in 1988. Combining that with T top (26%) and digital dash (52%) using %ages would make it approximately 1 of 109. What ever the estimate might be for 1988, go ahead and double it because this desirable configuration was also available in 1987. Let's say the estimate is WAY OFF real production numbers. An ultra conservatively guess might be that 400 were made like this. By any standard, it would be rare.

Now comes the question of restoring this rare rust bucket. The easy answer here is no way. There's just way too much expense for what you will end up with. No matter how rare a car might be, the right one will always eventually come up for sale. Always.

 

I agree - the GTA is more rare than what you would think. I searched the local classifieds for 10 years before I found mine with similar options (except the dash since mine is a 90). When I ran the numbers, I found out it is one of 25 black on black GTAs with the 5 speed.

 

So this thread got me to wondering why you can't just change out a rusty body for a clean one. I have seen on tv where they have totally replaced the body on a car when the old one was too rusty to use. You can even buy a complete 1st gen camaro body right now.

So I did a little research on my states dmv website and found an answer. Here in Nebraska you can apply for what is called an "Assembled Motor Vehicle" title. You basically build the vehicle and document everything along the way, and once it is complete, it is inspected and if approved is issued a new title.

Before you junk your GTA contact your local DMV and see if there are legal options available. The only option I think that will be available to you if you do decide to go with a different body is a "Rebuilt Title". Which states; "To replace any component part of a vehicle that is declared salvaged. A rebuilt salvage title is issued when two or more vehicles with different frames are joined or a salvage vehicle has five or more component parts replaced."

The upside is that you will technically still have a GTA, but the downfall is that is will be a salvaged title. Look into your options though before you do something drastic.

 

I know this question has been kicked around a lot of the enthusiast sites and the consensus is that it can be legal in some States but the procedure is pretty much what you have outlined above and can vary depending on where you live.
It is often done for high end cars like Ferrari's but usually the body is hand hammered aluminium from scratch (no spares are readily available) for a surviving frame or a crashed car. In these cases it is quite acceptable but it's not a direct comparison since they aren't taking two cars to make one.

If you do switch a body over and don't tell anyone, then you will always be liable for that action. For instance, I saw a case in Australia where the car passed through several hands with each buyer thinking they were getting an untouched car. Finally one buyer thought something didn't add up and got the metal x-ray tested around the VIN and hidden VINS which showed they had been cut from another car and welded in. The guy that did the work was facing criminal charges plus was responsible for loss of value for the owner (and the car had appreciated considerably - much more than what the original scammer sold it for).
In short, don't try it illegally. You can't beat an X-ray test no matter how good a welder you are.

 

The interesting thing here is that the buyer paid an expert body man to inspect the car before purchase and the VIN swap was not detected. The sellers claim to be oblivious to the swap, which in this case seems hard to believe because they bought the car a year earlier at 20% of the value of the "real" thing:

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2...-falcon-xw-gt/

Third gens are still 2 or 3 decades away from justifying body swaps or cloning. As of today, the typical IROC or GTA fakes are sloppy and easy to spot. But if you're a buyer, even at this price level it's still worth your time to do your homework before you hand over the cash.

 

Just saw the OP's pics....If it were me, I would do something crazy with it (dump a ton of cash into it and make it something amazing) or sell it and look for a better project.

 

because its not worth the money or the hassle. by the time he does [all that ****] to re-assemble that rusty heap, he could've easily bought 3 or 4 nice GTAs. a GTA with the options he wants might be "rare", but not that rare. if he has the money to do [all that ****] to what he has, then an easier and far more logical route to getting the GTA he wants would be to start a thread here called "Who's Got a GTA With [These] Options?" posts are then made, PMs are sent, well, you know the rest.

if he has the money to do [all that ****] then he should easily be able to make somebody an offer that they cant refuse. and if he doesnt have the money to make someone an offer they cant refuse, then he doesnt have the money to fix what he has - and people should stop encouraging him to do so. those of us who are strongly advising him against trying to do so are mostly speaking from experience, because we've been down that road. unless you've got more coin than i can imagine, its a road to nowhere.