These are pics of my cars. the 89 Formula 350 that i currently own and the 96 Z28 that i sold in October 2011. the cars are actually similar enough to make a somewhat redundant statement and i was sick of my 4th gen so i sold it.

The following assessments are based on my own experience and opinion.

LT1>L98: out of the box performance. the biggest advantage, i think, is the LT1's ability to pull past 4000 RPM, which the TPI cars dont want to do. (reverse flow cooling is not and never was the be all to end all - thats why they dont even use it anymore)

L98>LT1: ease of ownership. mo' mods, mo' problems. that goes for both engines, however, while i think just about any third gen is a pain in the ***, my modded (bolt on) LT1 was a total pain in the ***. there are a lot of simple things that an average person cannot do or fix on a 4th gen. plugs and wires for example. i couldnt install my own headers. too many things are just plain out of reach. worse, every time i hit a bump, i'd get some nonsense check engine code. every time you get a check engine code youre dreading that the OPTISPARK has finally went. my LT1 was juat way more finiky than my L98. the only time my L98 throws a code is if there's actually something wrong - not because it didnt like the way i pulled out of the garage.

The cars:

3rd>4th: Styling. yes, this is TGO. and, yes, the 4th gen community in large part would disagree, BUT, there are even those in the 4th gen community (more than you'd think) who would agree that 3rds are better looking - AND by a large margin, most disinterested parties prefer the 3rd gen styling. i had my 4th gen for a long time and i fell out of love with the styling. by the time i sold it i was completely sick of the car's bulbous plasticky styling.

4th>3rd: Interior. marginally. 4ths still have the hump in the floor on the passenger side. they still have rubber and plastic interiors. i'm not sure if i prefer the 4th gen interior but i can see how it could be regarded as SLIGHTLY better than the 3rd gen interior. 3rd gens have alot more little screws and breakable parts, i think. the 4th gen cup holder is a joke. a sick joke.

4th>3rd: Reliability. mo mods mo problems, but its never the engines on either cars. its all the peripheral crap. if you take care of your car it will be reliable, but then it sometimes seems that a Third Gen will find a way to be down for maintenance. typically, due to crappy electricals.

4th>3rd: Aftermarket Support. have crappy 16" wheels on your 4th gen and want to upgrade without loosing that factory look? no problem. you can easilly upgrade to a better looking Corvette, SS, or WS6 wheel, and you dont even need to use spacers. no such thing for 3rd gens (unless you like the looks of Ronal Firehawk wheels - which i dont.) the entire basis of 3rd gen performance aftermarket support is parts interchangeability with 4th gen cars.

 

I prefer the l98. Lack of low end tq makes the lt1 feel sluggish with a dead pedal. Mine is not even stock. I like the short ram on my camaro the best. Good tq and easily hits 5500 rpm

 

As the owner of a 2000 Trans Am I can basically agree with you on most points.

Except the only time a Thirdgen has left me stranded with no warning or fault of my own is when my 89 had the ICM take a dump on me on the highway. No warning the engine just shut off. The 2000 never left me stranded but it only has 38k on it, ~9k of that was me, so it better not.

I drove the 2000 for about a year then bought an 88 Trans Am and have never been truly tempted to put the 2000 back on the road.

 

My 01 WS6 is parked beside my son's 88 GTA in the garage. The WS6 is the better performer, but the GTA wins the beauty contest hands down. And as the roadways become overcrowed with Korean econoboxes, that GTA just keeps getting better looking.

 

I think you are confusing OEM options to interchange with actual aftermarket support here. There might be 20x more SBC parts than LT1 motor parts on the market, even though some of the parts are interchangable. While the LS1 is extremely popular (as is the SBC), the LT1 aftermarket is going to shrink in the future - there were only 6 model years of LT1 cars and it is definitely an oddball.

CTW Motorpsorts makes bolt on 17" x 9.5" wheels for the 3rd gens, which are lighter and offer way more brake clearance than the Firehawk wheels - please do some basic research before making statements like that.

 

To be fair, I think you should include a transmission comparison. I owned a 2000 WS6 Vert with a 6 speed and it's a lot better than the 5 speed in my 90 GTA. The LS1 was of course much faster than the LB9.
Interestingly, the 1990 would out handle the 2000 and could be pushed much harder in corners. In a high speed corner, the 2000 just never felt as stable and the rear would break out with no advance warning (which was somewhat disconcerting).
The ram air front end on the 2000 is so outrageous I can't help but go with it, especially with the top down. For a hard top/T Top comparison 3rd to 4th, I'd go with the 3rd gen.
4th gen interiors win by a slim margin just because they are better integrated. Yes, the cup holders are a joke but so are the ones on a 3rd gen.
Modifications/Aftermarket - non issue - we are in the history/originality forum - no?

I forgot to add that I sold the 2000 but still have the 1990. I guess that is my way of voting.

 

kinda pisses me off that you said that. as the Original Post and the pics therein illustrate, i've BUILT a 4th gen and i've BUILT a 3rd gen. you think NO RESEARCH has gon into that??? i'm speaking from experience.

and you might be confusing "two different engines" for "two different cars." obviously there are more small block chevy heads, intakes, and cams etc. but when it comes to the Third Gen Platform and TPI, the aftermarket is pretty thin even compared to LT1 cars, more so when compared to LS_ cars, and especially compared to it's contemporary rival, the Fox body mustang. i mean FFS, they dont even make a Cold Air Intake for TPI. the fact is that platform wise, for every 1 choice you have for a 3rd Gen, you have 4 choices for a 4th Gen. and 10 choices for a Fox Body.

here is a quick scratching of the surface of me doing some basic research:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/whee...18-wheels.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...1le-kit-w.html

 

[quote=90 GTA Black;5650984]

as an entire package, the 4th Gen>3rd Gen in out of the box performance

None of the 3rd Gens i ever owned had/have cup holders. the 4th gen cup holder is more of a roughed in cup holder. only they forgot to make it deep enough to stabilize a cup.

B.S.
and historically speaking, the 3rd Gen Specific aftermarket has been incrdibly weak relative to the popularity of the platform.

this thread wasnt meant to be something you vote on, just a thread to hear about the experience of others or relate your own experiences, but yeah, i sold my '96 Camaro when i got my Formula on the road. if you've got a 300 HP 4th Gen and a 300 HP 3rd Gen in your garage, the attitude, looks and feel of the 3rd Gen will make it hard for the 4th gen to seem relevant (not a bash on 4th gen owners).

 

Linson mentioned the 'factory look', as in GM type wheels I assume.

 

None of the 3rd Gens i ever owned had/have cup holders. the 4th gen cup holder is more of a roughed in cup holder. only they forgot to make it deep enough to stabilize a cup.

I have two factory cup holders in my 90 GTA and they are better described as "after thought". One on each door positioned far enough forward that they aren't really useable, especially since they easily cracked when pulled on and so were often removed. My 2000 had 4 cup cup holders. The obvious one was too shallow and in the way if you drove a stick shift so I used the pull out one for the passenger which actually would work fairly well despite being flimsy. The two in the back were never used.

this thread wasnt meant to be something you vote on, just a thread to hear about the experience of others or relate your own experiences, but yeah, i sold my '96 Camaro when i got my Formula on the road. if you've got a 300 HP 4th Gen and a 300 HP 3rd Gen in your garage, the attitude, looks and feel of the 3rd Gen will make it hard for the 4th gen to seem relevant (not a bash on 4th gen owners)

Wasn't really voting. Just trying to say that I picked my 225HP/5 speed 90 GTA over my 320HP/6 speed 2000 WS6 Vert. Also not a bash on 4th gens but there was just something about my 90 that was more appealing.

Sure, there isn't much aftermarket to get my 90 up to the same HP but that doesn't really bother me. In fact, I prefer the stock look and sound so, for me, aftermarket is a non issue.

 

From my personal experience and friends of mine that have owned LT1 F bodies, a lot of what went wrong from a factory LT1 or modified 4th gen they got rid of them for a LS1 F body or went to find a L98 or LB9 5 speed third gen. Reason being, i've had to replace the distributors more than twice of 2 different cars. Stupid Optispark. They made 3 different distributors on the LT1 which i always found ridiculous. Most of all of them the 93-97 camaro or T/As they owned had a raddling noise or valve ticking noise, or lifter. When modding them both, i found working around the tpi cars easier just because i've had experience around them where as the lt1 i just wanted to yank the motor out of the car just so i could do work on them.

All in all, i don't see so much of an advantage of owning a lt1 vs L98 when it comes to mods or a car that's factory. LS1 cars are easier to work on, easier to diagnosis, and response better to mods. If it's not an LS1 car, i always prefer a L98 any day over a LT1.

As far as interior goes, i personally like the 3rd gen as my opinion, as i think the 4th gen to me just feels cheaper with all the plastic around, now 85-92 firebird center console's are another story i think GM really crapped out on the design because they always feel apart over time.

 

come on now, nothing feels as cheap as the 3rd gen interior with all the faux stuff in there LOL. It's straight out of a die cast model car (not saying I hate it but calling the 4th gen "cheaper"..... LOL)

 

GM kept the same flaw with the 4th gen dashes they crack, the HVAC system sucks just like the 3rd gens. 3rd gen camaro's in my opinion had the best center console as far as durability and actually lasting. Now the 4th gen had better doors as far as interior goes. When it comes down to battling on leather seats. I prefer the GTA leather seats over the 4th gen leather seats. But as far as them lasting i think they GM made them the same, they always show signs of cracking over time.

 

pleather,... or they are made of synthetic cows

 

I purchased my '97 WS6 Trans Am brand new back in January of 1997 and I still have it. I immediately started modding it as soon as I got it. Going with long tube headers remedied the issue with changing spark plugs and wires. I really don't have any issues as far as working on the car goes. The A/C system in it SUCKS. In stock form, I feel that the 3rd gens handle better. The t-tops on the 4th gen are a much better design that pretty much eliminates wind noises. I think the styling of my '91 Trans Am GTA is sexier than my '97 WS6 in stock form, even though my '97 is pretty sexy as well. Either way, I have no intentions on getting rid of either of my cars.

 

youre 4th gen is very sexy. the right color, killer wheels, big meats, and a great stance.

as shown, i like it better than your GTA.

 

Ok, I see what you are getting at here... You are talking about specific parts to fit the body styles of the generation of cars - either 3rd or 4th gen specific.

A lot of companies pulled their TPI products off the market when the LS1 cars came into being (late 90's) due to the focus on that engine, including SLP, Accel, and others. SLP is gone as of a few months ago. A shame, absolutely - but that doesn't mean the parts are not out there used, nor will they be made again.

BTW, CTW Motorsports (my company) is coming out with a TPI CAI next year - in case you didn't know. We also have a few other projects on the board that we are working on for TPI and/or 3rd gens.

I want you to know that besides the Ronal wheels, there are 4 other bolt on 17" wheels still being made to fit the 3rd gens off the top of my head:

CTW Motorsports:





Weld RT-S:




Centerlines (4 or 5 more styles than this pic):




Torque Thrust 2:




Keep in mind that there are always a lot more products out there than you are aware of. As an example, I didn't know about Dyno Don's headers until a few years after he started making them - but now we can't say there isn't that particular product out there. I spent about 2 hours a day researching products and trends for my business and still don't know more than a decent fraction of what is out there.

I'm not saying that competition isn't good, but having 10 of the same product (most probably clones of each other) in 2013 without millions of units being produced is a surefire way to get low quality (lowest bidder in China, probably), no customer service, and lots of complaints. Steeda and Saleen are not the companies they used to be 15 years ago or more.

 

Come on now, 17" wheels came out years after the 3rd gens were introduced in fall 1981. Even the Vette didn't get 17" wheels until 1988 and it was one of the first cars (besides the f40 and 959) to get them. I doubt GM would have made 17" 3rd gen wheels any earlier than 1991, which never ended up happening of course. Even 4th gens came with 16" wheels the first few years too...

 

Apology Accepted.

and as i stated, almost the entire performance aftermarket for 3rd Gens is based on parts interchangeability with 4th Gens. some headers and exhausts arent hard to find, and most all the suspension stuff is interchangeable with 4th Gens, but wheels and brakes are tricky, especially if you have a Firebird (there are options that just seem more "right" on a Chevy.)

as far as the wheels that are available that will fit a Third Gen, the problem is that none of them have a Period Correct look to them, nor do they have a Cutting Edge Modern Upgrade look (like carlos's 97 Trans Am.)

i have nothing but respect and gratitude for what you do and are trying to do (create a Third-Gen specific performance aftermarket.) this is not a criticism, this is just a request from one customer. and, of course, i would never presume to ask you to develop products to satisfy ONE customer, but this is what i would ask for in a wheel developed for Third Gens:
1. Period Correct Appearance: Over-sized, one-off versions based on cross-laced TA wheels (might be popular), IROC whees (might already be available), personally, i would be all over a Formula wheel one off, but i dont know if that would be popular enough to justify development.
AND/OR
2. something truly modern looking like what seems to be hot these days:

 

[quote=Linson;5650995]That is a load of crap.

If you are my age (early 40's) or a bit older, you will remember the aftermarket coming out with a boatload of parts as far back as 1982 for the 3rd gens, really moving into high gear after TPI came out and SLP starting making products with GM's help and consent.


Here are a few early aftermarket brands/tuners everyone should research:

Martin turbo engineering - gone in the late 80's
Gale Banks engineering - made parts until early 2000's
Mecham - folded in the late 80's


Then came the big wave in the late 80's:

SLP
Accel (later with Lingenfelter)
Arizona Speed & marine
TPIS (still makes TPI parts)
Lingenfelter
Turbo City
Performance Consultants
Guldstrand
HO racing
Auto Dynamics
Paxton
Vortech
Procharger

You could have bought a 1989 L98 car new, put the SLP package on it (it was available) and ran 13.8 with it all day on street tires - enough to run with the 1987 GN (which had no real parts back then anyway) and definitely outrun a fox with the limited bolt ons available at that time. If you wanted to go even faster, NOS had a TPI system available in 1986 that could put your can into the low to mid 12s.

Looking back at history, the TPI cars (f-bodies and vettes), fox mustangs, Grand Nationals, and the diamondstar cars created the performance aftermarket as we know it today, which later made parts for the 4th & 5th gens, C5 & C6 Vettes, new Dodge cars, 370Z - you name it.


I always thought the 4th gen cars were a good update to the 3rd gens - still flawed, but definitely improved. The looks were good, the LT1 motor made more hp, but less TQ, the 6 speeds were way better, the interiors nicer. But they are heavier, still had the weak kneed 10 bolt, handled about the same as the 3rd gens (but rode a bit better), and in 1998 came out with the world class LS1 motor.

 

Problem is that with a 11 year run, there is no "period correct" wheel as there were many - from the 15" drag wheel look popular in the early 80's to IROC wheels, to TA cross laces and Z28 wheels at the end. Ols style BBS look terrible (always did), not to mention the really ugly styles the aftermarket was making in the 80's.

We already looked into making a 17" or 18" version of the crosslace wheels, but there are a boatload of problems. 1) The engineering and molds to make a cast version of them would be extremely costly. 2) They would have terrible brake clearance compared to spoked designs 3) The actual production cost would be higher - probably around $1,500 to $1,600 retail for a set, compared to about $1,100 for our 5 spoke offerings. I can make a 18" version of out wheels and sell them for $1,300, $1,600 is too much for a 17" crosslace.

Formula wheels are another story - the design is a low volume nightmare, it can only be done by CNC cutting out of billet blanks for the volume I am thinking about. Problem is that we are talking minimum $800 per wheel in a 18" x 9.5", maybe a bit more. The design also had terrible brake clearance per the design.

The main problem with wheels is the fact that tastes change so quickly that an older platform like the 3rd gens is a big problem. I know that is why wheel adapters are so popular - with the right ones, you can fit just about any wheel size and style on just about any car.

When we were looking at producing wheels for the 3rd gens, we had a few important criteria to meet or exceed:

1) Direct fit, no spacers
2) Fit as many aftermarket brake kits as possible
3) Be race worthy
4) Be lightweight, yet strong
5) Retail for $1,250 a set or under

The good part is that we met all the criteria above and have even had some great racing teams run and win CMC races with our wheels (a testament to the design and the effect of a 275-40-17 tire).

Other designs for the most part will not meet at least 1 (if not 2 or 3) of the criteria on our list, so we are letting them dwell until a revisit is required.

My main concern is that except for the TTA cars, you can get a really nice 3rd gen IROC or GTA for under $10k - no one in 2013 is going to spend $4k for a set of forged 18" formula clones, just too much for budgets. Most people don't even want to spend $4k to put a set of Koni yellows, a 13" brake kit, and a set of our wheels (and tires) that will give their cars C6 handling and braking.

As a follower of all things Camaro and Firebird, there will be a renewed interest in the 3rd gen cars in the next 3 to 6 years, as even the "disco" 2nd gens are being snapped up to make pro touring and resto mod rides (early 2nd gens and 1st gens are way too expensive). Once the masses realize that the 3rd gens are 500lbs less, more aerodynamic, handle netter, and can support any level of power (with the right parts), there will be a second coming of the aftermarket.

 

okay. well, where are they now? i guess to be fair, there arent alot of Third Gens on the road now either. however, this:

Quote:

4th>3rd: Aftermarket Support

was the point i made, and i am not wrong. in the here and now, and for the past 20 years or so, i am not wrong on that issue.

 

i totally understand your obstacles. they are also my obstacles as far as getting what i want. but, again, all i said was

Quote:

4th>3rd: Aftermarket Support

i dont see how thats even contraversial. its just a fact of life.

btw, for the Firebirds, what about something resembling a 4th Gen Speed Line wheel...

again, not asking you to develop products for just this one guy - just throwing out ideas for things that i would be interested in buying.

 

Most of the companies on the first list are gone - or moved onto other products. But keep this in mind - sometimes products are introduced that can do well, but the companies fold or are bought out (and shut down). Obviously Edelbrock, TPIS, and even Lingenfelter still sell some TPI products, but they are all focused on the 5th gens - because that is their market focus now.

True, the number of third gens has been dropping every year.

But, they did produce more 3rd gens than any other generation - some model years sold over 300k per year.

20 years ago (in 1993), there was 10x more aftermarket support for the 3rd gens - the 4th gens were only out a year at that time and it was a slow process to get parts out for them. It was probably 96 or 97 before the 4th gen aftermarket matched the 3rd gen one.

 

Speedline is a good looking wheel. It could be done as like the others.

The question is - would a third gen owner pay say, $2,000 for a set of clones, when they may be able to buy a used 4th gen set and spacers to fit for $1,250? (as an example)? this applies to generally any auto part from the aftermarket - it needs to make sense money wise to the buyer and seller. The pro touring 1st gen folks like to throw away their money, not us 3rd gen folks.


I've had a huge list of 3rd gen ideas that have hit roadblocks:

1) CAI similar to SLP's (this is going forward after a 6 month delay)

2) Linear rate lowering springs for handling (insurance company won't underwrite it - need to revisit with a specialty carrier). These springs would be lower costs and higher grade materials than all competitors.

3) 18" version of our wheels (not enough interest so far) - might be possible in the future

4) Lightweight modernized dashboard (huge project - not enough resources)

5) 22 gallon replacement gas tank (no vendor can make this for us that we contacted)

6) 8.5" wide version of our wheels to fit 2nd gen front and all 1978 to 87 G-bodies (in a holding pattern right now)

 

fair enough. 20 years ago, i was still in high school and was two years away from owning my first car (or knowing how to drive.)

 

your list truly reflects alot of the pain i've felt.

the CAI is something i would love to see on the market even though i eventually did get my hands on an original SLP piece. as far as the dash board, those can only be got used; i got a like-new one off eBay that was for the 89 Formula that i bailed on, and the 89 Formula i have has a like new interior, but yeah, the aftermarket only offers a "dash pad" to lay over your cracked dash board. (actually, i bought two off eBay. i cracked the first one moving it and bought another one.) and obviously, direct fit wheels interest me - less now than before since i now have 1LE brakes and am partial to the look of the factory wheels on a 3rd gen Formula. in a way though, i can sometimes be like those 1st Gen Pro Touring folks in that i WILL spend the money. for example, if i could find a 17 or 18 inch wheel that i liked, i might sell my brand new 1LE package, buy the bigger wheel/tire package and a bigger brake kit to go with it.

sux that they dont make a streetable 265/45/16 for out back - not that i've found anyway.

 

Michelin used to make a 305-40-16 tire (XGT) to fit 10.5" wheels for the c4 Vettes back in the 80's. Considering the Z51 suspension cars could push 1g on 255-50-16 OEM rubber back then, one wonders what they were truly capable of.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but 275-45-16 tires were available at one time - also for the C4 Vettes on the 9.5" wide wheels (typically convertibles).

Just be glad that BFG still makes a really good summer tire in 245-50-16!

 

After owning 6 third gens (still have one), and currently owning 2 fourth gens, here's my take on the above...

1) L98 is not better than LT1. We all have our opinions, but lets look at some facts. While I completely agree that the L98 has more aftermarket available for it, and its easier in many ways to work on, in stock form it is significantly slower. In modified form? How many H/C/I L98s do you see nudging 400 RWHP with those items plus a tune, and just a handful of supporting mods like bigger injectors? Head over to the LT1 board on LS1 Tech and see what I'm talking about. TPI was great for its era, and you can definitely do stuff with it. But, TPI will always be a limiting factor in the L98 making big HP...its just too torque biased.

LT1 is faster stock. LT1 has plenty of aftermarket to make it go fast. Opti Spark is hardly the anti christ people make it out to be...after 17 years my original has never given me a single issue. LT1 even gets better MPG than an L98. I will say this...I totally agree the LT1 aftermarket will shrink for years to come unless cars like the 94-96 Impala SS explode in popularity, forcing the aftermarket to cater to LT1-specific platforms. But, if an engine makes more power stock, and has better potential, how can someone say the older engine is "better"?

2) Build quality and overall reliability is WAY better in fourth gens. My 23k mile IROC has various small squeaks and rattles. My 75k mile 97 Z28 doesn't have a single rattle. In 13 years of ownership with my Z28, I have replaced a water pump, alternator and a power steering pump. In my 91 RS, which had about 30-40k more miles on it overall? What did I not replace

3) 4th gen interiors are better. Between build quality and ergonomics, I don't know how anyone can say its a close comparison. It isn't. I much prefer the larger t-tops and smaller windshield of a third gen, but otherwise? And if you don't like an LT1-era cupholder, the fix is easy...get a '97+ console. My cupholders in my 97 are just fine.

4) Transmission and drivetrain options were better with 4th gens. The T56 is awesome, especially compared to a T5. Also, every V8 4th gen got a limited slip rear end. All got rear disc brakes. All manuals had a decent 3.42 axle ratio instead of 3.08s like most T-5 cars got (93 is the one exception where there were 2 T56 choices, one of which had a deep 1st gear, so a 2.73 gear was offered there).

Where do third gens excel? Appearance. Nostalgia. Feel of the road. At-the-limit-handling. Slightly lighter weight. Everyone on here that knows me knows that I am a 3rd gen fan first and foremost...and if I could own only one, it would be a third gen...specifically my own IROC, as its exactly what I was looking for.

In my mind, though, the 4th gen is simply better at a lot of things. LT1s may truly end up being the red-headed-stepchild of the Chevy world. They're almost there now. However, I believe there are some clear advantages to an LT1 car over a third gen...and right now, the deals on LT1 cars are incredible for the car you get. LT1s are cheaper than decent 3rd gen V8s around here...which is a lot of car for the money.

 

[quote=Jason E;5651946]

not the Opti Spark in and of itself (i never had a problem with mine either, and i had my '96 for 12 years.) the problem (MY problem) with the Optispark is the difficulty it causes in the way the wires are routed. The Opti Spark and other maintenence difficulties, i think eminate largely from the fact that half the engine is tucked up under the dash.

 

The LT1 4th gens introduced several strange new features that were overly complex and offered little, or at best, marginal value:

Windshield stretching forward over 1/2 the engine: Aerodynamics maybe? No gain in useable interior space.
Optispark: Could have gone with a DIS ignition like the V6's had during the same era.
Reverse flow cooling: Possibly some benefits, but not on an everyday street application.
Pull type clutch: Not sure what the benefit is here.

Newfangled LT1's weren't all bad however - ABS and T56 trans were giant leaps forward.