Linson

okay, i'm just going to ask. do you actually own a Third Gen?

*edit* oop, says it right in your avatar area. a 3rd Gen Camaro with a T5?

did you consult a market analyst before you bought that car? honestly, if I were interested in buying a Third Gen and needed help figuring out a fair price, I wouldn't be looking to some douche bag in an office somewhere. best bet would be to consult people here on TGO who live and breath this Third Gen stuff.

Linson

I'm not going to speculate. i'm just gonna tell ya, I have no idea what the relevance of that factoid is supposed to be.

The_Wraith

It's quite simple. You claim that GM did so much better with the Thirdgen in 1985 with all these refinements in the skirts and rims. I found it interesting that no Thirdgen ever topped the 82-84 in sales. That is the relevance.

I used to be a big fan of 85-90 t/a's and 85-92 Camaros. I didn't mind the 91-92 bird but they were never as well received as other years. Until I owned a few. Now I have real appreciation for the early years and the classic looks and decal kits. So much so that I could have bought plenty of the later cars but I chose an early Thirdgen.

If anything the Aero 84 t/a looks just as aggressive as any other later t/a if not more. People also seem to really dig my tail lights.

Z28Disaster

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.....



This is what the car looked like right after i sold it. This is a picture of a picture. Note the tart i sold the car to is sittting in it

Z28Disaster

This is what i got back

Z28Disaster

Z28Disaster

Z28Disaster

Z28Disaster

This is after i washed it

The_Wraith

I would fix it. Must be a downer to see it in that shape. What is with the base front end?

Z28Disaster

This is the LS1 I am considering installing. Its currently in my '99 ta while my 404" LS2 is bein redone, i had a thrust bearing issue. I tossed the LS1 in just for Ocean City MD car cruise weekend next month. Obviously the sheetmetal intake will not go in my Z. I have a Fast 92 that i'd use instead.

I am about to purchase a carb fom another user. I wanna get it running and see how i like it. After that i will decide which route i may go.

Thanks everyone for your input. I have read through this thread....alota good info and arguements for or against restomod. Its nice to see others with same pasion for these cars that i have

Z28Disaster

The kid hit a guard rail and had some hack attempt a repair. Good news is all the bumper reinforcement and park lamps are z28 still. However the bumper cover is for a berlinetta. I am trying to locate a z bumper and chin spoiler

TxTtopZ

The Zack Morris douche bag should have been your red flag. He really screwed that car up big time!

Give it an LSX and tell it your sorry. It should forgive you.

Z28Disaster

I literally laughed outloud when i read this

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Looks to me like the part about "LS1" is the least of your worries at this point...

Doesn't look worth salvaging to me. That is, you can get another in better shape, for FAR less than fixing that one.

Think of it this way: You have a start point (where you are now, with a pretty much used-up junker) and an end point (where you want to be, which is, with a functional car that's not an embarrassment or anything). Everything in between "start" and "end" is a blank canvas, waiting for you to fill it in. You have any number of ways to fill in all those blanks; "restore" what's left of that hulk, buy another similar car and make 1 good car out of 2, part that one out and use the money to buy another, etc. etc. etc. etc. Realize that the choice you make, will make THOUSANDS of dollars of difference in what it will take to get from "start" to "end", as well as no telling how much difference in time, labor, risk, etc.

Choose wisely.

Linson

YIKES!!!
thats a damn shame.

at this point, i'm guessing that you bought back the car for sentimental reasons? if so, you might as well put it back to stock. if you're gonna do the LSx thang, you might as well just buy this car for 4K: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...-1983-z28.html

honestly, i'd even buy that 4K car off of eBay if i wanted a stock-ish one of those.

*edit* although i must say, there is something sort of badass looking about that car kinda beat up (could be just the angle of the pic.) but i can really see that car in flat black, with kind of a minimalist restoration, black wheels (Nascar-type or factory Z-28), and with that nasty LS under the hood.

Linson

[quote=The_Wraith;5753292]

okay. i see your point. it doesnt necessarilly hold water, but i see your point. just because more people bought Third Gens early on does not make the earlier Third Gens the more desired models today. thats why we see so few of them.

if you scan what all the members of TGO own and drive, you would probably find that there are a statistically low number of 82-84s on these boards. this, i think, is because when most people go shopping for a third gen, they're shopping for an 85-92.

a while back, there was a thread called "most desirable year" or something like that. a lot of people were objective, impartial, and honest, and alot of people merely decided that whatever model year they happen to own is the most desirable year. looks, performance, and options were what it really came down to (for those who were being impartial). 1989 walked away with over half the votes. it was like a three page thread, i think.

i'm not trying to knock 82-84's or their owners. and there are some really nice ones on this board. i'm merely trying to articulate my sensory perception and my personal taste.

*edit: found this: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...able-year.html

Staged84

I've owned a 91 and my current 84 Camaro. My own personal taste and opinion is to restore. And, while it isn't in great shape, I've seen a lot worse. I've restored worse cars than that. I think it's a little bit of a challenge to take something many people wouldn't touch and make it better than new. Many of the L69/Z28 parts are still there (I would kill for the complete intake setup), some are reproduced or you could get fairly cheap used. Honestly, that's one of the things I like about 3rd gens- the parts aren't completely outrageous and are still plentiful for the most part. Ever tried to restore a 68 Charger on a budget?

The_Wraith

Didn't say it did. But the public was sure buying a ton of them in the early years.

Who cares? I used to to go after the later models myself. But I now prefer the older ones. 85-90 cars are played out big time. I don't know many people that even look twice at them.

The argument is a waste of time.

With a thesaurus in one hand!

Linson

wow. douchy looking guy. is that the same guy you bought it back from or did it change hands over the years? and how long ago did you sell it?

kmcn47

your paint has held up so much better then mine

EDIT: then again my photos are high res. so it could look terrible lol idk

eseibel67

Why do you say that? It wasn't an argument, it was an interesting thread with a conclusion:

Loose concencus was that if one model year(1989) out of 11 gets over 50% of the vote, it was the best year.

Z28Disaster

Its really in ok shape. I ran a buffer on a spot and if i wanted i could polish the rest of what i painted and it would come up nice. I actually have left over paint from painting it from 1998

Z28Disaster

I bought the car in1996 from the original owner.

I dated this girl who s cousin was 17 and needed a car. In 1998 i sold it to her cousin.. It was that kids first car too. He is from a ford family so they were all pissy with him about buying a camaro. He hit a guard rail in 2000 and parked it in the current condition with the hopes of one day restoring it. I saw him a couple times over the years and tried to buy the car back but he wanted it still and swore he d never sell.

Well about 2months ago i saw that kids grandmother. I asked her if her grand son was ready to sell me back my car. Well she told me that it just got sold 2 weeks prior. Long story short i was able to get it back. The guy who bought it from the tool i sold it to was a day or so away from gutting and scrapping the car.

Z28Disaster

It really looks worse than it is. The floors and quarters are solid. It needs 2 fenders, a front bumper and a drivers door. Obviously there are a **** ton of other odds and ends i need.I have done alot of restorations overs the years.....this one is a fixer for sure. Its basicly how i left it minus the accident.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Obviously its sentimental to you and if you want to restore it well then its worth it. Some people may not think its salvagable or worth it but thats their opinion. I think its worth it and am looking forward to seeing your progress. Being able to do the work yourself makes it a lot easier and makes you feel better when you see your finished product

The_Wraith

I meant the argument of personal preference not the thread itself. I would take a 1987 over a 1989 because they are exempt from etest. Anything GM did performance wise to these cars in 1989 means nothing because all TPI Thirdgens were slow regardless . I don't remember ever seeing 1989 topping the 1/4 mile compared to 87-88. I could be wrong though. (Not including the TTA)

eseibel67

Have to agree that third gens are slow. Don't need to reopen a new topic here, but there were vast improvements throughout the 11 year model run, including some very signifigant mechanical ones inbetween 1987 and 1989 such as serpentine drive, dual conveter exhaust, and aluminum rear calipers.

And if you are talking about Ontario Drive Clean, you can expect that the whole program will be abandoned within a few years.

The_Wraith

Probably mattered back then but not today. Dual cats were an option. Most cars in later cars I have seen don't have it. The calipers while an update from the previous years were problematic too. Serp setup is nice and cleans up the engine bay.

I hope so but I doubt it. It is a money maker for the Government.

TxTtopZ

Actually, most v6 and v8 cars have a converter for each bank. Including the SUVs and trucks.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Agreed…but really very little if any advantage in having two converters. Probably the biggest being during smog testing.

The biggest improvements in my mind over the Thirdgen years is serpentine belts and vast improvements in fuel injection and engine controls.

Down this way, they got rid of roller testing. Tests are only given to 96-up models (OBD II)... Now they just plug into your computer and check for any active codes..and they still pressure test your gas cap. Don't worry, they still get their money.

They raised registration fees...

graysmoke

Wow, now looking at the condition that must of hurt seeing it like that. I might have to change my opinion on restoring and go with your restomod ls1 plan.

TxTtopZ

I assure you there are advantages to having a converter for each bank. Better power and longevity of the converter are noticeably better. Even the front wheel drive Cadillac that has virtually no room anywhere is stuffing separate cats in there. It's so tight you literally have to drop the subframe to just change them out. Being that converters arent cheap, if there was not a significant benefit to it, trust me, the manufacturers would save money by incorporating just one.

The exhaust system and emissions components on our vehicles is outdated. Secondary air, EGR, single cats, etc. etc. None of it is being used anymore. All Y-piped cars run separate converters, no more secondary air injection, no more EGR valves on the latest stuff. Usually when I change out an EGR valve, it's on a 2004 or older vehicle all though some were used on GM until recently. To think our old 80's tech is better than whats new is nothing short of blind.

Personally, I will be scrapping the "high flow N10" dual cats AND the EGR/Secondary Air system. It's an 89 officially making it a "classic" in the State of Texas and is not needed. Especially if it's registered as an "Antique" (it's eligible) which requires no annual inspection whatsoever.

kmcn47

go for it man. ignore the plebs arguing value. its your car your not trying to sell it your trying to drive it haha

TxTtopZ

+1

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like you're determined to "restore" it.

Doesn't sound like any advice you get one way or the other is going to change that.

Don't say you weren't warned.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

That just tells you the difference in states emission requirements. It takes 20 years here to be considered "classic" or " collector" and 30 years to be considered antique.

Little wonder that the egr valves and AIR injection went away because it's all computer controlled now.....let me bring you up to date...most cars now don't run dual CATS...

TxTtopZ

Yes and thirdgens are over 20 years old. So what's your point?

You gotta be kidding me. Later EGR IS computer controlled. Having an Engine Control Module has nothing to do with what your saying. Also, most later cars I see with 2 banks HAVE 2 cats. Like our dual catted thirdgens. Period. Let me bring you up to date...
I fix cars to for Chevrolet to put food on the table, day in day out, week after week, year after year. Usually I would ignore such a misinformed statement such as yours above, but since I stake my reputation on this board which specializes in the car I love the most (which helps if I give out the correct information btw)... I am willing to log into GM Global Service Information and back up my information.
Now do you really want me to pull down your pants and spank you in front of all these people?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

There was no point...I was just stating the difference in emission requirements between states. Has nothing to do with Thirdgens being over 20 years old. You can get as offended as you want, and let everyone know you're a master technician for whoever...Briggs and Stratton.... No one cares.

Put your keyboard skills to good use and prove to everyone how having 2 converters are so much better than having one....aside from the obvious reason of passing emissions, and lasting longer than one as you said...they have no performance value whatsoever. To say that dual cat cars are "better" for power and performance can't be right at all. I can't see how putting a slight restriction on both pipes is so much better than putting a restriction on one it after it merges into one pipe. And you're going to "assure" me there are advantages to 2 cats?

Sorry, you need to do more than " assure" people. I don't see people adding CATS for performance...one or two. Period. Please provide proof.

THATS where your little rant started. Feel free to spank away little master technician, and put everyone in awe with your massive automotive knowledge.

I'll admit, the phrase "let me bring you up to date" was a bad choice of words....I should have said more up to date cars use the ECM's to more precisely control everything....and I didn't mean it as being demeaning....I assure you.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I'm pretty sure GM and others went with 2 converters so they would heat up quicker and become effective quicker. Judging by where all the dual cat setups I see are mounted, which is close to each bank allows them to heat up quickly.

I'm just not ready to "drink the Kool Aid" and believe performance was in mind when they went to dual CATS. Better performing CATS...yes...

Anyway to attempt to get the thread back on track, the pics of your '83 are pretty rough and only you can decide if it's worth fixing up. If it's for sentimental value, I say do it.

It's hard to find 82-84's with solid floors. You could do a rebuild on the 305, add the dual snorkel and depending on what the emissions requirements are in your state, I ran mine for a few years with the EGR blocked off, no air to the CAT and Edelcrock TES shorty headers with the air manifolds capped off. And I had no "Check Engine" light at all.

Back then, my state was still doing the rollers and sniffer...and it passed...twice! Now that test is gone and my car is emissions exempt. All Thirdgens here are exempt now. If I stayed the stock route, I'd have removed the CAT too...and I'm pretty sure it still would have ran fine on the original CCC system with no check engine light!

TxTtopZ

So not only are you admitting your wrong but your answering the same question your asking that I already answered? Is this some tactic to throw me off or ????

That's exactly right...Welcome to 2014

If you cannot understand that taking a restriction and dividing it in half with only having half the volume to contend with equals easier flow, I dont know what to tell you.

Again, your not saying much there, other than you weren't being demeaning. I wasn't demeaned. Slightly entertained and annoyed at the same time is more like it. It really doesn't matter what I do for a living to you, I get it. I don't care if you know or not as this board doesn't write my check. But when you state incorrect information, like there is "very little if any advantage" to running dual converters when there clearly is, rather it be for performance or not, still represents progress in these cars which is where this argument came from. Thirdgen's became more advanced through out the years and showed direction. Welcomed or not. Which has no consequence on this topic one way or the other. There is nothing from one car that can't be bolted on to another. So this is a moot point. I gotta run...got my kids softball game to coach.

eseibel67

There's no doubt the N10 dual converters were implemented for one reason only - increased performance. If the reason was to reduce emissions, they would have been fitted to all the V8 models, not just the highest performance models that would have very little impact on on emissions across the entire F body line. Manufacturer's look to save a penny in every system, there's no way they would go through the significant expense of an additional cat for no reason.

And Confuzed1 - it's really not cool to insult someone's vocation.

The_Wraith

My 91 Z28 had dual cats. There was no substantial performance gains that were noticeable by driving it vs other thirdgens, quite the opposite actually. Is there any actual data that backs these claims up? As another user said jamming a single pipe that splits into two and then back into one doesn't sound much like a performance adder.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

You're right...I apologize for that.....

TxTtopZ

No hard feelings, life is too short. Plus, I would be lying if I said I didnt like a healthy debate here and there. It's normal to bench race and bicker when there's that much interest flying around. I just wish I had more money to play around and do more of my own research and testing.

Z28Disaster

I already stated that i am unsure of what to do as far as restore or restomod. Bottom line THIS is the car i am going to do. I coulda bought any 82-84 z.......but you are missing the point. This car has alota sentimental value to ME. And its my first one....the actual car. Bein around the car buisiness i hear guys all the time wishin they had their first car back. I got mine and its not goin anywhere. Lookin at it from a financial stand point it would make perfect sense to buy one in better shape and restore/restomod it. But in this hobby, alota cars built are not worth what money is invested in it.

Like i stated this car is in good shape as far as the important things are concerened(quarters,floors,rocker panels etc)

90camaro355rs

so fa king dom, tell me why you thin his car is not worth fixing, if all it needs is a door, fenders, and a front bumper, why not fix it, quarters and floors are good. sounds like a few dollars and it can be painted, if he has another engine he wants to put in it, then why not, what on earth do you have against this restore/ restomod?

If this fella wants to do it, just say good luck and move on.

I have seen threads on here with far WORSE cars than this one get fixed, Im following one now, fella has had to change the entire back half of the car, floors rockers part of the firewall.

if they have the money and drive I say go for it.

eseibel67

Us old guys don't really want our first car back. We want our 18 year old lives back. But I understand how the car bridges the connection.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No, I'm not really "missing the point"...

I think you are.

Looking at those pics I see a front cap including bumper cover & ground effects, not just fenders, although since it has the SMC hood, that might be repairable; COMPLETE interior, wheels, weatherstripping, maybe a few other significant pieces here & there. It's been a squirrel nest so there's no telling how much wiring is chewed up or what it smells like. Obviously can't tell whether it "needs" a motor or not, you'll have to be the judge of that; but if it does, "rebuilding" the original is probably not the wisest choice anyway. But motors are EEEEEZY; lots of that other stuff is MUCH tougher to come up with, and MUCH more expensive in many cases.

You're going to need essentially a whole car in good shape that you can tear down to put its pieces on this one, PLUS all the stuff that has to be replaced (weatherstripping) with new. It's not going to "buff".

In the "sense" dept, if you've got to buy a good car ANYWAY, how does it "make sense" to destroy THAT to fix THIS one, rather than the other way around?

"Sentiment" and all that, tends to work in the opposite direction from "good sense". I have heard over and over again about "this was my 1st car", "lots of good memories", all manner of such stuff, concerning such a car as this; it has rarely ever turned out well. Always seems to go over budget, take years, and come up short of re-creating whatever the owner is shooting for, especially since the car itself is just a heartless soulless chunk of metal and plastic with no "memories" or "sentiments" of its own. Just a mass-produced consumer good, with many virtually identical copies indistinguishable from each other originally.

While I can't of course "predict" that the same thing will happen here, I can definitely see a strong likelihood. That's the reason for my skepticism. "Sentiment" and "My First Car" typically end up taking a back seat to "bank account", "24 hrs in a day", "city condemned the junk heap in my front yard", etc.

You came here for advice, looks like you want cheerleading. I'm not a cheerleader, sorry. All I can do is provide advice, based on MANY repetitions of the same theme that I've witnessed. Since you don't appear to want that, there's not much I can add. Which is too bad; I REALLY like these cars, especially HO ones, and that's one of the sharper looking color combos. Damn shame it turned into what it turned into.

Best of luck in your project; you'll probably need quite a bit.

The_Wraith

Everything his car needs is cheap to buy and fix. One nice weekend and that car could be brought back to a respectable level with minimal effort and money. Minus paint.

Even the interior in that car could be pulled out and power washed and easily brought back to respectable with a good clean up. Decent weather stripping can still be found in yards if needed and many other parts cheap.