danleo

They were the same car. Why did GM make essentially the same car with 2 brand names. Only big difference is one had static headlights and one had flip up. Was it just marketing like some folks wanted a Pontiac and others wanted Chevy? Same thing with Ford and Mercury.

ex-x-fire

Some GM customers are brand loyal. Each division at one time had a 350 engine of their own design. GM was that big.

danleo

I remember when I was a kid you could go to a dealer and pick out individual options on your car and have it sent from the factory. Even had hundreds of color swatches for the interior to pick from. Man have things changed (would you like grey or black interior sir).

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

$$$$$$


The chassis/suspension/drivetrain were already paid for. Swap lights, bumpers, badges, and you can sell another car to someone that otherwise wouldn't have bought one. I wouldn't buy a 77 Camaro, but I'd love a 77 TA, even though they are the same car.
Same reason the Sierra is the Silverado today.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

The drive trains was originally very different, Pontiac also had a very different body style than Chevy in that they used composites (Ie. Endura Bumper vs. Chrome) earlier on in an effort to produce more flowing lines. At the time the two lines of F-Body's were created, there were actually many different brands (Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, GMC etc.) that were most likely smaller companies that GM had purchased earlier on.
Back when Americans were more loyal to American manufactured vehicles the market could support one company building many different lines of vehicles, but as the years passed they started to consolidate to the point where the drive trains were the same, and brands eventually were eliminated.

SolarGoldRaptor

You can ask that about pretty much every american car from the big three up until recently. Ford Mustang/Mercury Cougar, Challenger/Barracuda, Camaro/Firebird,...

The looks are different so it can appeal to more customers, using minimal tooling so reduced costs.

jharrison5

I wouldn't really call them "clones", more like brothers or sisters. If you take a closer look all of the major manufactures do this. The ranger pickup was also a mazda b model, the S10 was a Sonoma and an Isuzu hombre. Toyota is Lexus, Honda is Acura, and Nissan is Infinity. If you look at their early models it is very apparent.

ex-x-fire

Wasn't there a rumor that the pont. 301 was going to be installed in the 1982 Pontiac f body?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

^^But GM corporate dropped the 301 engine in favor of the "Corporate" LG4.

ex-x-fire

Yeah, that goes without saying.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

The F-Body was originally a Chevrolet project and Pontiac kinda got stuck having a Camaro with a different name, (they wanted a 2-seat Corvette competitor) but they made the best of it and used Pontiac stuff on their car. All of the GM divisions had their own engines, parts, and tech back then. By the time the 3rd Gen came along they were very similar mechanically and in the 4th Gen they were almost exactly the same. It did give people different styles to choose from though.

okfoz

Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and Cadillac are (were) all positioned differnently for different markets. Granted the difference between a Firebird and Camaro by the time you get to 1982 is minimal as far as drive train, There are differences between them... In all honesty a Cadillac is nicer than a Buick, a Buick nicer than an Olds, Olds nicer than a Pontiac and a Pontiac nicer than a Chevy.

Regardless of what people say, even when the car comes down the same line, in the same plant, The Cadillac will get the better parts, they are inspected more closely... it goes down the line, and Chevrolet gets whatever is left over.

My Grandmother worked for Fisher Body (Turnstead) she was a QC manager or something like that. The Cadillac parts were white gloved through the process...

Personally I just purchased a Tahoe, and I should have gotten the Yukon, I drove both, but the Yukon was actually a little nicer build, even though they come down the same line. Same goes for the Pontiac, it is a slightly better build, nicer interior etc. Even if the replacement part is the same...

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

I don't think I'd go as far as saying that Chevy got "left over" anything. I'd say that Chevy had a slightly different focus than Pontiac since Pontiacs were similar to Chevys with a few extra items or some other kind of changes like fancier headlights or whatever. Since Pontiac has been gone though, it's allowed Chevrolet to get up there with fanciness, the new Impala is a good example and the Camaro now gets all kinds of tech that it might not have if there had been a sister car.

okfoz

To be honest, I think there are things that really go unnoticed by people. The biggest example was under the hood, there are screws for the inner fenders that pop through into the engine compartment. On all of the Firebirds (83-91) I have owned have these little plastic caps that go over the point of the screws so you do not cut yourself on them. I have not seen them on Camaros. Not saying they do not exist, just not seen them is all...

I have also torn apart the dash of a Camaro, and several Firebirds, to be honest the Firebird was easier to work on. As an example, there is a stupid screw on a Camaro that is right above the steering column that you need a shortie screw driver to remove. The Firebird does not have this problem.

The base seats & door panels in a Firebird were an option on the Camaro.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a Camaro, I hate to be splitting hairs, but I think a Firebird is just slightly nicer...

Scott Moyer is bound to jump in on this any moment, we have had several of these conversations over the years...

John

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

I agree with you John okfoz. I've been buying the Pontiac Trans Am's new since 1978. I have owned 8 new. I have kept but only two. I should kept a few more cause I loved the Pontiac. Fast forward to March of this year........I could not believe I was in a Chevrolet Dealership actually buying a 2014 Camaro 2SS/RS. It felt really bad not purchasing a NEW Pontiac TA.

I miss Pontiac.

carlos64030

iTrader: (1)

Chevy C6 Corvette = Cadillac XLR
Toyota Matrix = Pontiac Vibe
Pontiac Solstice = Saturn Sky
Chevy Caprice = Buick Roadmaster
Buick LaCrosse = Chevy Impala
Scion FR-S = Subaru BRZ
Toyota Camry = Lexus ES 350
Chevy Volt = Cadilac ELR

The list goes on. Numerous car brands present and past re-badge vehicles.

83ZZZ28

Have you seen the Firebird body kits for the 5th gen Camaro ? Firebird front & rear body change with a shaker hood. We have several here in Phoenix, they look & fit great. BOOM... now you have your 'New' Firebird.

I have to agree, having owned a '79 & '84 T/A... the Firebirds seem to be a better quality ride, fit and has standard equipment that is an option on the Camaro.

Rod

83ZZZ28

83ZZZ28

My '79 PONTIAC T/A - 6.6L (400)- Auto Trans - came with an OLDSMOBILE engine ! !

I remember sometime in the 70's, a guy sued G.M. because (like mine) he bought a PONTIAC T/A that had a OLDSMOBILE engine. I don't remember how that law suite turned out. Maybe they gave him one with a 4 speed, that way he would get his Pontiac engine with a bigger 403.

Rod

83ZZZ28

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

I bought a 79 T/A 6.6 "LITRE" Black with Orange,red,Gold combo.....with a 403 Olds motor. I hear ya.

okfoz

My Sister had a 77 Buick Riviera with the Olds 403... that car surprisingly would move pretty good for a large car. I had the Buick 350 in a 77 Electra (same exact car if you did not know) and that thing was a dog...

Granted my 67 Riviera with the Buick 430 really moves much better in comparison.

In the 70's there was quite the customer to-do about the cross-breed engines, especially when they started doing it. I know there was a lot of cases where people complained about having a Chevy engine in a Buick, or a Olds engine in a Buick, people bought a Buick and wanted a Buick ( I live in Flint, MI, my dad was an engineer for Buick) in the end they are not "corporate" engines. Way back in the day some engines would say "Buick" or Chevrolet right on the air cleaner, or valve cover sticker or somewhere, notice now you get a "Vortec" sticker on the engine... Or 3800, even when everyone knew that the 3800 was a Buick engine...

John

okfoz

In all honesty I think calling any of those cars a "re-badge" is not accurate. None of the sheet metal, is interchangeable, nor is the interiors. They may be made at the same plant, and use the same underpinnings but they are quite different. Actually on the outside the Glass might be the same on portions...

Same goes for the Firebird and Camaro, sure they look a lot alike, probably more than it needed to be, but really the only exterior parts that are the same is the mirrors, glass, roof, doors and hatch. The Hood, fenders, quarter panels, bumpers are all different. Same goes here, the chassis & drivetrain is obviously the same, but is that technically a "rebadge?" In my book by definition rebadging something would imply that you take the exact car and put a different sticker on it. Which really is not the case.

Slater126

iTrader: (1)

Good question, and one which GM eventually resolved in favour of axing Pontiac. By the time of the Third Gen the differences between a Bird and Camaro were minimal and largely superficial. There probably didn't need to be two model lines but back then GM had two large dealer networks to deal with, so there had to be a Firebird and a Camaro.

The General didn't start to address that structural inefficiency until the late 1990s when it dumped Oldsmobile. After that it was only a matter of time for Pontiac.

83ZZZ28

Hey John, I grew up in Frankenmuth. My father was a Sales Engineer for the Demmer Corp. & Willson Engineering. He stopped at all of the GM plants every week. If your Dad is still with you, ask him if he remembers a , Dean Loveless.

... .... This is a picture of people in Michigan, swatting MOSQUITOS ... ...

Are you going to the Autofest this year ?

Rod

83ZZZ28

okfoz

I think one of the reasons why GM had cross breeding starting somewhere in the 1960's is there was a big to-do about breaking up GM. GM owned some 50%+ of the market in the 1950's and 1960's they WERE the automotive manufacturer. The Feds, were all in trying to break up this huge corporation into smaller parts because they were afraid of it becoming a monopoly.

What saved GM was the fact that different brands used so many of the same pieces and parts, the Firebird & Camaro were on the same line so they could use the same machines, the Monte Carlo, Cutlass, Regal, Grand Prix were all on the same line and use the same machines, The Cavalier, Sunbird/Sunfire, Skylark, Omega, Cimeron, all could use the came down the same line, so they could use the same machines, therefore to break up GM would absolutely cause all of the companies to cease to exist.

fteufert

Remember in 1967 when Pontiac had to install traction bars on the single leaf rear springs because of spring wrap issues? Even their OHC 6 Sprint version had one, while manual trans cars had 2.

Camaro's only received one. Pontiac knew a few things Chevy didn't.

Pontiac versus Chevy was a rivalry, and each had a loyal following allowing huge amounts of cars to be sold.

okfoz

Not sure what the story is on the rear springs... I suspect it had to do with cost on the Chevy.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

They aren't clones! Very similar, yes, but there are sooooooo many differences. Rear quarters are even totally different! Look at the wheel arches haha

I've read the entire history of the design and build of the third gen. Awesome read if you find the book... which I can't remember the name of at the moment. It's a red hardcover that was a volume in a series of classic cars. Completely covered the entire development of the car. I'll post when I get home later.

MintWS6FORMULA

Back in the 1st gen, Pontiac's car had a performance advantage over the Camaro. Plus, Pontiac came out with the rear spoiler for the 2nd gen, that worked so well that Chevy decided they needed a version of it on their car also. Plus I think it was Pontiac's idea to add T tops on the F Body by putting it on the 50th Anniversary 1976 TA, and Camaro followed suit when it became regular option the next year.

If you're gonna pick apart identical vehicles, don't forget that GMC and Chevy are even more closer to identical than Firebirds and Camaros

MintWS6FORMULA

2nd gen Camaros didn't really look sharp until they got rid of the red pizza slice taillights and went to the euro taillights in '78 and the Z28 got the lower stripes.

MintWS6FORMULA

To this day, I still prefer the looks of the Sky to the Solstice.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Eh, not really. Camaro's actually competed and dominated in Trans Am with the 302 Z28 (which handled good for it's day) and the COPO 427 iron and aluminum cars were faster than any Firebird. There were many records set with these cars. The front and rear spoilers actually started with the 67 Z28 originally. The T-Top thing is true, except that they first showed up in GM/Chevrolet on the 68 Corvette. The Camaro didn't get them until 78.

89350Formula

I always thought the interior styling of the Firebird was just nice looking. The Camaro seemed so basic, bare bones, almost cheap to me. As for the exterior, I found the Firebird, particularly the Formula and Trans Am to be more interesting but I still liked the Camaro exterior look.

Clones, no. Cousins/siblings? Yes. BRING BACK PONTIAC! (and oldsmobile)

jermdm

I've always considered that the Pontiacs were nicer than the Chevys. Even though the 3rd gen Firebird and the Camaros are the same platform, there is a lot of differences between them. Rear quarters, front fenders, bumpers, dash, etc. Basically appearance items. Mostly the drivetrain, steering, engines and some other things are the same. Manufactures been doing these things for years. Taurus and sable, Chevy 1500 and gmc 1500, Tahoe, Yukon and escalade plus you can even say that the hummer H3 is the same also since its the same platform. Manufactures are still doing it today. I work for ford an the new explorers and the new Taurus's are the same platform, just different sheet metal and interior. Even the new escapes and focus's are basically the same. Lincoln LS's are basically Jaguar type S's and the remade Thunderbird were Jaguars also. I would say that Chrysler, Honda, Toyota all do the same stuff.

mmadden55

Because with two essentially the same cars with different exteriors and interiors they could sell more cars than if they just had a Camaro or a Firebird.

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

We like these cars because we see them for more than what they are. GM at the end of the day is a for-profit-business. If there is an opportunity to make more money with minimal effort - such as having several vehicles that share frames, engines, transmissions, etc. - so long as it's financially feasible most companies have and will continue to do the same thing.

bjpotter

The common use of a drivetrain platform for different cars or even car companies go's back to the early years of GM. Back then each car "company" in the GM line had one or two cars. The companies were designed in pairs to use as many common parts as they could. Cadillac and La Salle, Buick and Olds and Oakland, Pontiac and Chevrolet. Each company up the line represented a upgrade in quality and price. Chevy being the "Base Model" and Cadillac being the top of the line. GM began discarding Car Companies at the start of WWII when La Salle "The Baby Cadillac" was killed off along with Oaklands.

bjpotter

I agree. I have owned both a Camaro and now a Firebird third Gen of similar years. The Pontiac is nicer. My Firebird came with a Cup holder in the door. A Cup holder in both doors! My Camaro, although I loved that car, did not. A fact that ruined the seat bottom between my legs.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Just a small nitpik...

The Sunfire was never on the same line (at the same time) as the Skylark, Omega (I'm sure you meant Firenza here) or Cimarron. The 1st gen J-body that included the Cavalier, J2000, Sunbird, Skyhawk, Firenza and Cimarron was produced from 1982 to 1987. The 2nd gen was from 1988 to 1994, and included the Cavailer (up to 1994) the Sunbird (up to 1994) the Skyhawk (up to 1989), the Cimarron and Firenza (up to 1988). The Sunfire started production in 1995, on the 3rd gen J-body platform and the Cavalier name plate was carried over for the rest of production up to 2005.

Interesting note the Cavalier was re-badged a Toyota with Sunfire wheels, wider front fenders, JDM specific tail lights Right Hand Drive, and a few other touches and sold in Japan at Toyota dealers from the late '90s into the early 2000's.