Quick question before I travel to look at this unit. The owner is older, the car has been sitting for several years and they haven't been able to get the hood open for a picture. They know it's a 305 and that it was recently replaced then parked due to a clutch issue.

Would it be TPI or TBI or undetermined?

Thanks,
GD

 

Either or.

 

Assuming that they did not do an engine swap in the process, the VIN will tell you what Originally came in the car... If the 8th digit = F then it was TPI (LB9), E = TBI (L03)

John

 

Thanks, I'll get the VIN from them. Didn't think of that!

GD

 

VIN: 1G2FS23F4ML212280

GD

 

TPI car! Could be a G92 car as well. Look for dual cats and an oil cooler. If it’s a G92 LB9/T5 car it’s arguably the fastest combo thirdgens ever got. Desirable car either way, but a real find if it’s a G92 car.

 

Anyone have access to comp nine to run the VIN? Center console lid is current MIA. Might be in the car, might not be.

Engine got swapped out with a "new 305" whatever that means. So who knows what specs the engine has now.

GD

 

Also look under the lid of the locking compartment in the driver's side cargo area as the SPID was located there for later Third Gens.

Here's the RPOs for your VIN:

UB3 CLUSTER,INSTRUMENT(OIL,COOLANT TEMPERATURE,VOLTMETER,TACHOMETER,TRIP ODOMETER)(USED WITH DELUXE SPORT PKG W32) GA(UB3)
UQ1 RADIO,PROVISIONS FOR STEREO STEREO RDO PR0VISIONS(UQ1)
UX1 RADIO,AM/FM STEREO,WEATHER,CASSETTE,EQUALIZER,ETR,INCLUDES CLOCK STEREO AM/FM W/CASS & EQLZR(UX1)
U62 SPEAKER SYSTEM,4,DUAL COAX FRONT,DUAL COAX PACKAGE SHELF 4 SPKR SYS(U62)
VAN PLANT CODE VAN NUYS, CA, CPC VAN NUYS,CA PLANT CODE(VAN)
VK3 LICENSE PLATE,FRONT MOUNTING PACKAGE FRT LIC PLT MTG PKG(VK3)
V73 VEHICLE STATEMENT - US/CANADA US/CANADA VEHICLE STATEMENT(V73)
WS6 PERFORMANCE PACKAGE,SPECIAL(MERCHANDISING OPTION) SPECIAL PERFORMANCE PKG(WS6)
W66 FORMULA OPTION(MERCHANDISING OPTION) FORMULA(W66)
1SC PACKAGE-OPTION 03 (1SC)
1SZ PACKAGE OPTION- (1SZ)
15P WHEEL COLOR,MEDIUM SLATE GRAY (15P)
19C TRIM COMBINATION,CLOTH,BLACK (19C)
19I INTERIOR TRIM COLOR (19I)
19Q MOLDING COLOR,BLACK (19Q)
199 SEAT BELTS COLOR BLACK (19) (199)
41U EXTERIOR COLOR,PRIMARY,BLACK (41U)
6ZW SPRING COMPTR SELECT FRT LH SUSP(6ZW)
7ZW SPRING COMPTR SELECT FRT RH SUSP(7ZW)
8NL SPRING-COMPTR SELECT RR LH SUSP(8NL)
9NL SPRING-COMPTR SELECT RR RH SUSP(9NL)
AAA Unknown
AH3 ADJUSTER,SEAT,4-WAY MANUAL,DRIVER 4-WAY MAN D/SEAT ADJR(AH3)
AJ3 RESTRAINT SYSTEM,FRONT SEAT INFLATABLE DRIVER SI INFL RST SYS(AJ3)
AR9 SEAT,FRONT BUCKET,DRIVER,PASSENGER,MANUAL RECLINING(EUROPEAN STYLE) MAN RECL FRT BKT ST,DELUXE(AR9)
AU3 LOCK,SIDE DOOR,ELECTRIC ELEC S/D LK(AU3)
A31 WINDOW,ELECTRIC OPERATED,SIDE ELEC SI WDO(A31)
A90 LOCK,REAR COMPARTMENT LID,REMOTE CONTROL,ELECTRIC RELEASE ELEC REL LID LK(A90)
BC8 ORNAMENTATION,INTERIOR,FRONT DOOR MAP POCKET RH AND LH DR MAP PKT(BC8)
B84 ORNAMENTATION,EXTERIOR,BODY SIDE MOLDING(USED WITH APPEARANCE PACKAGE Z12) BODY SI MLDG(B84)
CC1 ROOF,HATCH,REMOVABLE PANELS,GLASS HATCH RF(CC1)
C49 DEFOGGER,REAR WINDOW,ELECTRIC ELEC RR WDO DEFG(C49)
C60 AIR CONDITIONER,FRONT,MANUAL CONTROLS A/C MAN CONT(C60)
DC4 MIRROR,INSIDE,REARVIEW TILT,DUAL READING LAMP I/S DUAL READING LP RR VIEW MIR(DC4)
DE4 SUNSHADE,REMOVABLE HATCH ROOF HATCH RF S/S(DE4)
DG7 MIRROR,OUTSIDE,RH AND LH REMOTE CONTROL,ELECTRIC(PAINTED)(USED WITH SE Z7M,STE Z7N,LE Z7K) O/S ELEC R/CON PAINTED MIR(DG7)
D42 COVER,REAR COMPARTMENT SECURITY(SHADE) R/CMPT SECURITY SHADE(D42)
D5S GEAR-SPEEDO DRIVEN (14085510) (D5S)
D8G SENSOR (D8G)
D81 SPOILER,REAR,AERO WING RR AERO WING SPLR(D81)
E5Z ADAPTER - SPEEDO - DELETE
E9Z KEY - SPEEDO - DELETE
FE2 SUSPENSION SYSTEM,RIDE AND HANDLING(USED WITH PERFORMANCE PACKAGE WS6) RIDE & HANDLING SUSP(FE2)
GU6 AXLE,REAR,3.42 RATIO 3.42R(GU6)
G80 AXLE,REAR,POSITRACTION,LIMITED SLIP POSITRACTION L/SLIP R/AXL(G80)
IPC TRIM,INTERIOR DESIGN (IPC)
J65 BRAKE SYSTEM,POWER,FRONT AND REAR DISC 4-WHL DISC BRK(J65)
KC4 COOLING SYSTEM,ENGINE OIL(EXPORT-IRAQ) KC4(EXPORT IRAQ)
K34 CRUISE CONTROL,AUTOMATIC,ELECTRONIC CRCONT(K34)
K68 GENERATOR,105 AMPERE 105 AMP(K68)
LB9 ENGINE,5.0L(5.0F),V8 EFI CAR ONLY 5.0F(LB9)
MK6 TRANSMISSION,MANUAL 5-SPEED(BORG-WARNER) 5-SPD M/TRANS(MK6)
MM5 TRANSMISSION,MANUAL 5-SPEED PROVISIONS(MERCHANDISING OPTION) 5-SPD M/TRANS PROVISIONS(MM5)
NA5 EMISSION SYSTEM,FEDERAL REQUIREMENTS FEDERAL EMIS(NA5)
N10 EXHAUST SYSTEM,DUAL(USED WITH TOURING YP6) D/EXH(N10)
N36 STEERING WHEEL,SPORT-4 SPOKES SPORT STRG WHL(N36)
N64 WHEEL AND TIRE,SPACE SAVER SPARE(ALUMINUM) STOWAWAY SPARE(ALUM)(N64)
PE0 WHEEL,16X8,ALUMINUM,LIGHT WEIGHT STYLED LGT WT AL WHL(PE0)
QLC TIRE,ALL P245/50ZR16/N BL R/PE ST TL HWY TIRE(QLC)
R6A CONTROL - SALES ITEM NO. 01
R6P CONTROL - SALES ITEM NO. 15

 

Thanks JT! I don't see a G92 (was that a firebird RPO, or Camaro only), but it's got the N10 dual cat exhaust and the 3.42 rear axle, and it's a TPI T5 car so that's good enough for me. That would be the 225 HP 305 because of the upgraded exhaust. 3.42 ought to get down the road. I'm down with that.

Update - crate motor was purchased from GM. Exact replacement for the 305. It's almost new.

GD

 

Pics:

 

From before it was parked and had paint work.....

Pin stripe is factory?

 

Doing a little searching - it appears the Firebirds of this vintage didn't use the G92 RPO code. They used the R6P code which was essentially the same thing. All the G92 RPO's are there. KC4, J65, GU6/G80, and N10.

So in essence - it's a G92 car. Or rather - R6P car.

Should I buy it?

GD

 

I'm late to the party... G92 is a "performance gear ratio" which sometimes is a way to tell a car with the performance package from one without. R6P is the performance package found on late Firebirds.

212280 would be an early 91. Probably early 1990 build date. Should have the spid in the console not on the bottom of the armrest, not in the trunk until later. Should also have the early hatch pulldown, and obviously it's before the PBR caliper shortage. Everything under the hood should be normal early style, silver valve covers, smooth runners, tpi plate on the throttlebody, etc.

It's got the right options but ultimately price and condition. Formulas aren't on the collector radar at all. For a thirdgen it should be relatively fast, low 14s if everything is right and the driver can shift it just right.

Pin stripes were dealer add-ons. Any little thing to make a free buck.

Looks a bit weathered and rough in the photos, but if it;s cheap and runs well, it's not a car I'd feel the least bit bad about owning. Blow the doors off all the usual 2.73/2.77 geared pigs, the 90-92 Z28s with single cats (no G92) wouldn't hold a candle.

 

R6P. A 91 bird with R6P has the goodies. A 91 bird with G92 would also have 1LE.

 

It's cheap. $2k

Not currently running but that's no trouble for me. Engine wasn't the problem and should fire up, but that remains to be seen. Was a nearly new GM crate specifically ordered by VIN. I Beleive it has some kind of clutch issue.

I don't know if the paint will clean up, but I'll paint it if I have to. It's an Oregon car, so not going to have any rust.

I know the Formula's aren't on the collectors radar....yet. But production numbers for 91/92 with the updated bumper, etc were pretty low. 6500 units. I think at some point they will be desirable. I like the look and I want it for a daily. Should be fun to drive the way it is setup. I'll probably drop in a mild Vortec.

GD

 

Hey, you're preaching to the choir. LOL I just mean the resale value is different than the stupid Irocs getting so much collector attention right now. 91-92 Formulas are awesome. Sounds like you know what you have to do!

 

Buy it 100%. Hope the engine has the correct heads on it..

 

what about the L98 cars? O know thay were WAY too powerful for a T5
Oh and I think thats a great deal for the Formula - get it!

 

I would grab it... Honestly I would try to get the price down closer to 1500, seriously you cannot even tell what other issues it might have, might need a whole new bushing setup.. . Funny thing is, in 91 & 92, you could not order a Z28 with the 3.42 axle and T-tops...

 

It belongs to a long time customer of mine so I know for certain I'm getting the true story on it. She's going to dig up the receipts for the engine and whatever else she has. We have discussed the car on several occasions - previously she was considering having me fix it up for her to drive again - she loved the car and doesn't really want to let it go, but will sell it to (only) me because she knows I will do right by it. It's not listed for sale anywhere - just a friend that is finally willing to let the car go to a proper home that can put it back on the road properly. It hasn't been messed with other than the recent (in miles) engine swap and then the clutch issue. Prior to that it was her daily.

Judging by what I've found on my 86 TA, I bet it does need bushings, etc. Probably shocks, tires, engine and trans mounts, and a whole host of other things besides. Till fairly recently it was in the garage - got moved out due to a boat, and a supercharged Mustang Cobra. But it's covered and is dry inside. I'm more worried about the fuel tank and fuel pump condition.

That's interesting about the 3.42 and T-tops. It really kinda seems like this is close to the performance summit of Third Gen's. I also think the Formula's of this vintage (91/92) are the best looking of the Third Gen chassis. I think that Camaro's bring people to this platform - and Firebird's keep there here. I bought 4 third gen Camaro's about a year ago ($600 for all of them) and I haven't even bothered to dig them out of the yard they have been sitting in for 10 years yet. I'm much more excited to get this Formula.

GD

 

I really like that car! Gona be a blast to drive. I love the 91-92 Formulas!

 

So can anyone tell me how many 91/92 Formula's were made with R6P?

GD

 

For 2 grand, I'd grab it!

 

Of the 5,464 1991 Formulas in Compnine's database they show 1,473 of them with R6P. Since GM didn't exactly disclose figures for options on top of options, keep in mind these figures rely on data and scripts that may not be 100% accurate.

 

Interesting. Was it possible to get R6P with the L03 or only with the LB9?

GD

 

Only LB9.

 

LB9 and L98. Standard on the L98.

 

Pretty nice optioned car. The interior looks like it just needs a vacuum/detail, console door and some door panel repair. The paint on the upper surfaces looks toast unless it's a thick layer of dust. I'd clean it all up, drive it for awhile and then repaint it. Could be a sweet car for that money. Like others have said, Formulas aren't IROC price yet, or even GTA price, so get them while you can.

 

Yes, L98 too.

 

I believe the R6P was only on the L98, and the LB9/MM5 Combo. I do not recall seeing an 87-92 3.23/3.27 performance gear LB9/A4 Formula, GTA or Trans Am for that matter.

 

My old 88 GTA was an LB9/A4 3.27 rear car (A4 didn't last, I swapped it for a T5).

 

Not wanting to hijack your thread here but I also own one of these cars. My RPO tag does not have the RP6 code but car definitely has dual cats, disc brake rear, oil cooler, etc. Anyone know if cars escaped with these options that weren’t on the RPO tag? Or what all was included in the RP6 option? Always been intrigued by these cars. Had a dark green one come for sale with 79k miles a few years back in complete original condition. I jumped on it without missing a beat lol. My suggestion would be to do the same!

 

I stand corrected, apparently 88, and possibly 87 the 3.27 was the gear used on the GTA... 89, 523 LB9 GTAs and 523 3.45 GM3 axles, and 523 MM5 GTA's

 

R6P is a mixed bag, it included N10, J65, KC4 and the "Performance Axle"
The following uses Compnine data for quantaties. 1991 as the case in point there was
R6P - 3005
LB9/MK6 - 1080
L98 - 3489
KC4 - 4569
N10 - 4569
J65 - 3474

1992 was similar
R6P - 836
L98 - 828
LB9/MK6 - 223
N10 - 1051 (Which happens to be the L98 + LB9/MM5)
J65 - 1051
KC4 - 1051

For starters, apparently R6P was not used on the Canadian export cars, however it was used on 6 1991 Formulas with the L03, and without the J65, KC4 or the N10 (this was the only time R6P was used with the L03)
It is hard to pin down exactly what the R6P was, it had something to do with a performance package, BUT those components is not apparent, as much of which the R6P included was already standard with the GTA and Formula with the LB9/MM5 (MK6) and all of the L98 cars.

R6P for 1991 could easily be explained that it was introduced after production started (it seems it might have been introduced April 6, 1990), BUT what about 1992? It seems that it should be consistent there, or maybe because it was a US only thing. There is no other RPO which has the same magic number of 3005 (for 1991) and 836 (1992).

So it is unclear exactly what it was...

 

Interesting stuff. I do know my car was build on March 5th 1990 so it was an early build. It seemed like a somewhat unique car when I bought it, maybe more so because I fell in love with it. But after accumulating parts for the last 3 years to make it a Big Mouth 383/6 spd/all tubular suspension overall nice driver and toy, I’m beginning to wonder if I just keep it all original from a value standpoint. When I was 20 it would have already been done but now that I’m almost 43 I tend to look for value in things more lol.

And reading the info you posted am I to presume that only 1,080 LB9/MK6 cars were produced for 1991? Or am I missing something there?

 

The Car Distribution Bulletin that refers to R6P and what it includes, as well as it being required, was dated April 6, 1990. CKone's Formula shows to have been built in early March, according to Compnine.

 

667 Formulas
167 Trans Ams
246 GTAs

 

R6P is really pretty straight forward, it's not even an undercover secret option, it's all over in the sales brochures and paperwork for 1991 Firebirds. It's even on the order sheet. Bad scans but honestly, I'm not digging out the original and trying to get a better scan. You can probably get on Google and find images of the 1991 Firebird order sheet, or better images from the 1991 sales brochures. It'll be referred to as a Performance Enhancement Group.

 

I've always felt that the R6P was generally the Pontiac equivalent of Chevy's '87 and up G92.

 

Sort of... But notice in the description, R6P includes (G92) "performance axle ratio". It's essentially the same thing as ordering the G92 option and triggering an un-named package on the Camaro, Pontiac just chose to give it a name and bill it as an option package. Ultimately it's a wash, no difference, but if you go looking for a 91 Firebird with G92 or expect that since a Firebird doesn't have G92 on the spid it doesn't have the Performance Enhancement Group, you're missing out.

It gets more confusing when you consider that GM didn't always include RPO codes on the spid if they were redundant. There are a lot of cases where codes are redundant and both will be there, but as many or more that are left off because GM figured the other code or combination of codes was enough.

 

Yup, just like the later G92 was a "performance axle" option, it triggered or forced you to order a bunch of other options, J65, N10, 16" wheels, KC4, MK6, etc.

 

Would love to have been in the meeting where they decided that this would be "available" on Trans Am with LB9/5-speed, but required everywhere else with LB9/5-speed or L98.

 

The Trans Am is always the middle child. Order without WS6 and with the 305 auto and you can get a pretty boring car. Up the ante a bit and you can have a much better car. The Formula and GTA were all about the performance, except of course the formula with TBI, but nobody can be perfect all the time. :P

 

I kind of think of the Formula as Pontiac's answer to the Z28. Trans Am's are just all over the map. Often more of a luxury touring model. 2.77 final drive? I don't know what they were thinking or why it had a (useless) posi in it. Geared that high with the 190 HP LB9 and the auto with stock converter.... good luck getting the wheels turning to use it.

GD

 

Haha right? The car you described is exactly as my 88 T/A came from the factory. Don’t remember it being a burnout machine when I got it but man was it fun running it to redline and hitting second gear! That thing would chirp all day long for a while. Think the best I got out of it stock was 16.0 😂 Free mods, chip, homemade cai, cat back, netted me some low 15’s. Changed engines and got it down to low 14’s. But even in stock form man was that a fun car to drive. Can’t wait to finally drive it again!

 

Well it's going to be mine.

$1000 and some labor credit for their current fleet.

The engine was a dealer crate - ordered by VIN and professionally installed by a (still) respected local shop back in about 99. Has around 30k on it.

A performance clutch was installed then they broke the hydraulic lines (plastic?!?) to the slave and never got back to fixing that. New slave with the plastic keeper is dangling under the car. And she hadn't been able to pass emissions due to a faulty cat. So it sat since about 2004. Apparently they had the engine running in 2013 and determined the fuel pump was bad (likely).

Then to top it off the house got broken into and they stole her jewelry box which contained the keys. So being a VATS key that was the end of trying to do anything with it. They drilled out the ignition to move it. And it basically sank into the earth from that point till today.

In a few days it will make the journey of about a half a mile to my shop on a flatbed.




GD

 

Excellent. Glad it's going to be saved.

 

Congrats! looks like we both rescued a neglected formula this week Love the black on black!!

 

She found the invoice for the replacement engine:



Near as she can figure this was installed around 90k miles. Currently has 122k on it. Car was bought with 70k. Engine has approximately 35k on it.

GD

 

Looks like a keeper man! Good luck with the rehab I bet it will be a fun ride!