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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
Quick question before I travel to look at this unit. The owner is older, the car has been sitting for several years and they haven't been able to get the hood open for a picture. They know it's a 305 and that it was recently replaced then parked due to a clutch issue.
Quick question before I travel to look at this unit. The owner is older, the car has been sitting for several years and they haven't been able to get the hood open for a picture. They know it's a 305 and that it was recently replaced then parked due to a clutch issue.
Would it be TPI or TBI or undetermined?
Thanks,
GD
Assuming that they did not do an engine swap in the process, the VIN will tell you what Originally came in the car... If the 8th digit = F then it was TPI (LB9), E = TBI (L03)
TPI car! Could be a G92 car as well. Look for dual cats and an oil cooler. If it’s a G92 LB9/T5 car it’s arguably the fastest combo thirdgens ever got. Desirable car either way, but a real find if it’s a G92 car.
Thanks JT! I don't see a G92 (was that a firebird RPO, or Camaro only), but it's got the N10 dual cat exhaust and the 3.42 rear axle, and it's a TPI T5 car so that's good enough for me. That would be the 225 HP 305 because of the upgraded exhaust. 3.42 ought to get down the road. I'm down with that.
Update - crate motor was purchased from GM. Exact replacement for the 305. It's almost new.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 05-06-2019 at 09:52 PM.
Doing a little searching - it appears the Firebirds of this vintage didn't use the G92 RPO code. They used the R6P code which was essentially the same thing. All the G92 RPO's are there. KC4, J65, GU6/G80, and N10.
So in essence - it's a G92 car. Or rather - R6P car.
I'm late to the party... G92 is a "performance gear ratio" which sometimes is a way to tell a car with the performance package from one without. R6P is the performance package found on late Firebirds.
212280 would be an early 91. Probably early 1990 build date. Should have the spid in the console not on the bottom of the armrest, not in the trunk until later. Should also have the early hatch pulldown, and obviously it's before the PBR caliper shortage. Everything under the hood should be normal early style, silver valve covers, smooth runners, tpi plate on the throttlebody, etc.
It's got the right options but ultimately price and condition. Formulas aren't on the collector radar at all. For a thirdgen it should be relatively fast, low 14s if everything is right and the driver can shift it just right.
Pin stripes were dealer add-ons. Any little thing to make a free buck.
Looks a bit weathered and rough in the photos, but if it;s cheap and runs well, it's not a car I'd feel the least bit bad about owning. Blow the doors off all the usual 2.73/2.77 geared pigs, the 90-92 Z28s with single cats (no G92) wouldn't hold a candle.
TPI car! Could be a G92 car as well. Look for dual cats and an oil cooler. If it’s a G92 LB9/T5 car it’s arguably the fastest combo thirdgens ever got. Desirable car either way, but a real find if it’s a G92 car.
R6P. A 91 bird with R6P has the goodies. A 91 bird with G92 would also have 1LE.
Not currently running but that's no trouble for me. Engine wasn't the problem and should fire up, but that remains to be seen. Was a nearly new GM crate specifically ordered by VIN. I Beleive it has some kind of clutch issue.
I don't know if the paint will clean up, but I'll paint it if I have to. It's an Oregon car, so not going to have any rust.
I know the Formula's aren't on the collectors radar....yet. But production numbers for 91/92 with the updated bumper, etc were pretty low. 6500 units. I think at some point they will be desirable. I like the look and I want it for a daily. Should be fun to drive the way it is setup. I'll probably drop in a mild Vortec.
I know the Formula's aren't on the collectors radar....yet. But production numbers for 91/92 with the updated bumper, etc were pretty low. 6500 units. I think at some point they will be desirable. I like the look and I want it for a daily. Should be fun to drive the way it is setup. I'll probably drop in a mild Vortec.
Hey, you're preaching to the choir. LOL I just mean the resale value is different than the stupid Irocs getting so much collector attention right now. 91-92 Formulas are awesome. Sounds like you know what you have to do!
TPI car! Could be a G92 car as well. Look for dual cats and an oil cooler. If it’s a G92 LB9/T5 car it’s arguably the fastest combo thirdgens ever got. Desirable car either way, but a real find if it’s a G92 car.
what about the L98 cars? O know thay were WAY too powerful for a T5
Oh and I think thats a great deal for the Formula - get it!
I would grab it... Honestly I would try to get the price down closer to 1500, seriously you cannot even tell what other issues it might have, might need a whole new bushing setup.. . Funny thing is, in 91 & 92, you could not order a Z28 with the 3.42 axle and T-tops...
It belongs to a long time customer of mine so I know for certain I'm getting the true story on it. She's going to dig up the receipts for the engine and whatever else she has. We have discussed the car on several occasions - previously she was considering having me fix it up for her to drive again - she loved the car and doesn't really want to let it go, but will sell it to (only) me because she knows I will do right by it. It's not listed for sale anywhere - just a friend that is finally willing to let the car go to a proper home that can put it back on the road properly. It hasn't been messed with other than the recent (in miles) engine swap and then the clutch issue. Prior to that it was her daily.
Judging by what I've found on my 86 TA, I bet it does need bushings, etc. Probably shocks, tires, engine and trans mounts, and a whole host of other things besides. Till fairly recently it was in the garage - got moved out due to a boat, and a supercharged Mustang Cobra. But it's covered and is dry inside. I'm more worried about the fuel tank and fuel pump condition.
That's interesting about the 3.42 and T-tops. It really kinda seems like this is close to the performance summit of Third Gen's. I also think the Formula's of this vintage (91/92) are the best looking of the Third Gen chassis. I think that Camaro's bring people to this platform - and Firebird's keep there here. I bought 4 third gen Camaro's about a year ago ($600 for all of them) and I haven't even bothered to dig them out of the yard they have been sitting in for 10 years yet. I'm much more excited to get this Formula.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 05-07-2019 at 12:59 PM.
So can anyone tell me how many 91/92 Formula's were made with R6P?
GD
Of the 5,464 1991 Formulas in Compnine's database they show 1,473 of them with R6P. Since GM didn't exactly disclose figures for options on top of options, keep in mind these figures rely on data and scripts that may not be 100% accurate.
Pretty nice optioned car. The interior looks like it just needs a vacuum/detail, console door and some door panel repair. The paint on the upper surfaces looks toast unless it's a thick layer of dust. I'd clean it all up, drive it for awhile and then repaint it. Could be a sweet car for that money. Like others have said, Formulas aren't IROC price yet, or even GTA price, so get them while you can.
I believe the R6P was only on the L98, and the LB9/MM5 Combo. I do not recall seeing an 87-92 3.23/3.27 performance gear LB9/A4 Formula, GTA or Trans Am for that matter.
Not wanting to hijack your thread here but I also own one of these cars. My RPO tag does not have the RP6 code but car definitely has dual cats, disc brake rear, oil cooler, etc. Anyone know if cars escaped with these options that weren’t on the RPO tag? Or what all was included in the RP6 option? Always been intrigued by these cars. Had a dark green one come for sale with 79k miles a few years back in complete original condition. I jumped on it without missing a beat lol. My suggestion would be to do the same!
Not wanting to hijack your thread here but I also own one of these cars. My RPO tag does not have the RP6 code but car definitely has dual cats, disc brake rear, oil cooler, etc. Anyone know if cars escaped with these options that weren’t on the RPO tag? Or what all was included in the RP6 option? Always been intrigued by these cars. Had a dark green one come for sale with 79k miles a few years back in complete original condition. I jumped on it without missing a beat lol. My suggestion would be to do the same!
R6P is a mixed bag, it included N10, J65, KC4 and the "Performance Axle"
The following uses Compnine data for quantaties. 1991 as the case in point there was
R6P - 3005
LB9/MK6 - 1080
L98 - 3489
KC4 - 4569
N10 - 4569
J65 - 3474
1992 was similar
R6P - 836
L98 - 828
LB9/MK6 - 223
N10 - 1051 (Which happens to be the L98 + LB9/MM5)
J65 - 1051
KC4 - 1051
For starters, apparently R6P was not used on the Canadian export cars, however it was used on 6 1991 Formulas with the L03, and without the J65, KC4 or the N10 (this was the only time R6P was used with the L03)
It is hard to pin down exactly what the R6P was, it had something to do with a performance package, BUT those components is not apparent, as much of which the R6P included was already standard with the GTA and Formula with the LB9/MM5 (MK6) and all of the L98 cars.
R6P for 1991 could easily be explained that it was introduced after production started (it seems it might have been introduced April 6, 1990), BUT what about 1992? It seems that it should be consistent there, or maybe because it was a US only thing. There is no other RPO which has the same magic number of 3005 (for 1991) and 836 (1992).
Interesting stuff. I do know my car was build on March 5th 1990 so it was an early build. It seemed like a somewhat unique car when I bought it, maybe more so because I fell in love with it. But after accumulating parts for the last 3 years to make it a Big Mouth 383/6 spd/all tubular suspension overall nice driver and toy, I’m beginning to wonder if I just keep it all original from a value standpoint. When I was 20 it would have already been done but now that I’m almost 43 I tend to look for value in things more lol.
And reading the info you posted am I to presume that only 1,080 LB9/MK6 cars were produced for 1991? Or am I missing something there?
R6P for 1991 could easily be explained that it was introduced after production started (it seems it might have been introduced April 6, 1990), BUT what about 1992? It seems that it should be consistent there, or maybe because it was a US only thing. There is no other RPO which has the same magic number of 3005 (for 1991) and 836 (1992).
So it is unclear exactly what it was...
The Car Distribution Bulletin that refers to R6P and what it includes, as well as it being required, was dated April 6, 1990. CKone's Formula shows to have been built in early March, according to Compnine.
Interesting stuff. I do know my car was build on March 5th 1990 so it was an early build. It seemed like a somewhat unique car when I bought it, maybe more so because I fell in love with it. But after accumulating parts for the last 3 years to make it a Big Mouth 383/6 spd/all tubular suspension overall nice driver and toy, I’m beginning to wonder if I just keep it all original from a value standpoint. When I was 20 it would have already been done but now that I’m almost 43 I tend to look for value in things more lol.
And reading the info you posted am I to presume that only 1,080 LB9/MK6 cars were produced for 1991? Or am I missing something there?
R6P is really pretty straight forward, it's not even an undercover secret option, it's all over in the sales brochures and paperwork for 1991 Firebirds. It's even on the order sheet. Bad scans but honestly, I'm not digging out the original and trying to get a better scan. You can probably get on Google and find images of the 1991 Firebird order sheet, or better images from the 1991 sales brochures. It'll be referred to as a Performance Enhancement Group.
Sort of... But notice in the description, R6P includes (G92) "performance axle ratio". It's essentially the same thing as ordering the G92 option and triggering an un-named package on the Camaro, Pontiac just chose to give it a name and bill it as an option package. Ultimately it's a wash, no difference, but if you go looking for a 91 Firebird with G92 or expect that since a Firebird doesn't have G92 on the spid it doesn't have the Performance Enhancement Group, you're missing out.
It gets more confusing when you consider that GM didn't always include RPO codes on the spid if they were redundant. There are a lot of cases where codes are redundant and both will be there, but as many or more that are left off because GM figured the other code or combination of codes was enough.
Yup, just like the later G92 was a "performance axle" option, it triggered or forced you to order a bunch of other options, J65, N10, 16" wheels, KC4, MK6, etc.
Would love to have been in the meeting where they decided that this would be "available" on Trans Am with LB9/5-speed, but required everywhere else with LB9/5-speed or L98.
The Trans Am is always the middle child. Order without WS6 and with the 305 auto and you can get a pretty boring car. Up the ante a bit and you can have a much better car. The Formula and GTA were all about the performance, except of course the formula with TBI, but nobody can be perfect all the time. :P
The Trans Am is always the middle child. Order without WS6 and with the 305 auto and you can get a pretty boring car. Up the ante a bit and you can have a much better car. The Formula and GTA were all about the performance, except of course the formula with TBI, but nobody can be perfect all the time. :P
I kind of think of the Formula as Pontiac's answer to the Z28. Trans Am's are just all over the map. Often more of a luxury touring model. 2.77 final drive? I don't know what they were thinking or why it had a (useless) posi in it. Geared that high with the 190 HP LB9 and the auto with stock converter.... good luck getting the wheels turning to use it.
I kind of think of the Formula as Pontiac's answer to the Z28. Trans Am's are just all over the map. Often more of a luxury touring model. 2.77 final drive? I don't know what they were thinking or why it had a (useless) posi in it. Geared that high with the 190 HP LB9 and the auto with stock converter.... good luck getting the wheels turning to use it.
GD
Haha right? The car you described is exactly as my 88 T/A came from the factory. Don’t remember it being a burnout machine when I got it but man was it fun running it to redline and hitting second gear! That thing would chirp all day long for a while. Think the best I got out of it stock was 16.0 😂 Free mods, chip, homemade cai, cat back, netted me some low 15’s. Changed engines and got it down to low 14’s. But even in stock form man was that a fun car to drive. Can’t wait to finally drive it again!
$1000 and some labor credit for their current fleet.
The engine was a dealer crate - ordered by VIN and professionally installed by a (still) respected local shop back in about 99. Has around 30k on it.
A performance clutch was installed then they broke the hydraulic lines (plastic?!?) to the slave and never got back to fixing that. New slave with the plastic keeper is dangling under the car. And she hadn't been able to pass emissions due to a faulty cat. So it sat since about 2004. Apparently they had the engine running in 2013 and determined the fuel pump was bad (likely).
Then to top it off the house got broken into and they stole her jewelry box which contained the keys. So being a VATS key that was the end of trying to do anything with it. They drilled out the ignition to move it. And it basically sank into the earth from that point till today.
In a few days it will make the journey of about a half a mile to my shop on a flatbed.
05-04-2019, 10:25 PM
